Fear to tread

[Arachnid99]

The idea that Guiliman is some kind of close combat beast really sticks in my throat. For starters it's pretty unsupported in the fluff, seemingly only coming from Ultramarines and as well all know all Legionaries think their Primarch is the greatest in every field. However Guiliman great strength is his mind, he is the master strategist, the planner, he's obviously still a Primarch and thus automatically one of the 19 most deadly living beings in the Galaxy, but he shouldn't be the best in every field. Only Horus and maybe Sanguinius as the "best of them" should be +1 Primarchs, all the others, Guiliman included should have their strengths but also their weaknesses. That's why Angron has to be the best in hand to hand because he's got nothing else going for him. He doesn't have the Lions tactical command skills*, Lorgars oratory, Ferrus' artifice, he's got to be top dog in at least one field.

I've always been an enormous fan of Dorn and I really hope he's shown to be the most stubborn and enduring of the Primarchs, the one who keeps going when even another Primarch would give up, the unbreakable rock. But if he's depicted as out manoeuvring Horus at the Battle of Terra or going hand to hand with Angron and not getting hammered I'll be pissed off, because that's not who he is. Ultramarine fans should be happy to put their hands up and say "yes my Primarch may get beaten up by your Primarch in hand to hand combat, but he's the best large scale strategist in the Imperium and thanks to that he usually wins the battle and the war before the first shot is fired, while your Primarch is busy killing eminently replaceable line Marines."

 

 

*I've always imagined the Lion/Guiliman divison has being Tactical/Strategic, Guiliman is the Field Marshal, the Lion the regimental commander.

[b1soul]

Actually Sanguinius is noted as being one of three Primarchs that had been able to beat Horus when sparring

I believe it's uncertain whether all the primarchs have sparred each other

[Legatus]

The idea that Guiliman is some kind of close combat beast really sticks in my throat. For starters it's pretty unsupported in the fluff, seemingly only coming from Ultramarines and as well all know all Legionaries think their Primarch is the greatest in every field.

I think the notion probably mainly comes from his cultural upbringing. Macragge has a very martial culture, though more disciplined and not as feral as Fenris. Macragge is more compareable to spartans or the roman Empire, and every Child is raised in military academies from the ages 6 to 14, which would include standardised combat training. See for example how Jonson is portrayed as an expert swordsman in 'Savage Weapons', since he was raised on a world with a knightly culture. Guilliman would be something of a "Leonidas" or a roman Centurion, a methodical fighter, trained with all known weapons and to combat many different foes. An example of how he might fight is given in 'The Iron Within', where the Ultramarine Tetrarch Tauro Nicodemus is shown to be very effective with a shield and sword combination.

And if you contrast his martial upbringing with some of the other Primarchs, while a lot of them had to struggle and to fight for dominance on their world, few grew up in cultures that were as explicitely focused on martial traditions. For example, Vulkan grew up in a culture valuing artisan traditions. Corax grew up among mining slaves and started a rebellion. Sanguinius grew up among one of the constantly warring tribes on Baal, and led his tribe to victory against their enemies, but the background does not describe a sophisticated martial culture as far as I remember. They all had to acquire fighting abilities at some point during their upbringing, but some primarchs such as Russ, but also Guilliman, were raised as warriors from the earliest days.

[Wolf Lord Ronin]

I think the notion probably mainly comes from his cultural upbringing. Macragge has a very martial culture, though more disciplined and not as feral as Fenris. Macragge is more compareable to spartans or the roman Empire, and every Child is raised in military academies from the ages 6 to 14, which would include standardised combat training. See for example how Jonson is portrayed as an expert swordsman in 'Savage Weapons', since he was raised on a world with a knightly culture. Guilliman would be something of a "Leonidas" or a roman Centurion, a methodical fighter, trained with all known weapons and to combat many different foes. An example of how he might fight is given in 'The Iron Within', where the Ultramarine Tetrarch Tauro Nicodemus is shown to be very effective with a shield and sword combination.

And if you contrast his martial upbringing with some of the other Primarchs, while a lot of them had to struggle and to fight for dominance on their world, few grew up in cultures that were as explicitely focused on martial traditions. For example, Vulkan grew up in a culture valuing artisan traditions. Corax grew up among mining slaves and started a rebellion. Sanguinius grew up among one of the constantly warring tribes on Baal, and led his tribe to victory against their enemies, but the background does not describe a sophisticated martial culture as far as I remember. They all had to acquire fighting abilities at some point during their upbringing, but some primarchs such as Russ, but also Guilliman, were raised as warriors from the earliest days.

 

I just wanted to make a post in this thread to say that you make a very interesting point, Legatus. You have given me a new and fresh perspective in how I view the Primarchs, and hopefully some people can take something away from this.

That being said, the fact Guilliman was raised in a highly disciplined, martial culture (akin to, as you say it, the spartans or the Roman empire) still speaks volumes about his prowess at strategy and logistics (the theoretical), and less about his personal abilities in combat (the practical). As a Primarch, he's going to be within the top 20 most badass fighters in the universe. But I too found it a lil jarring that Guilliman might have been considered a sort of close combat beast that could defeat Horus in a sparring match. A game of regicide? Sure, but not personal combat.

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe equal in combat but I agree, Gulliman would not take Horus in close combat. Maybe Angron could as CC is his one and only true forte but in the end, even Sanguinius couldn't keep up.

[Legatus]

Personally, I do not recall ever having read that Guilliman was on par with Horus in terms of fighting skill, and I am not sure where Blindhamster might have gotten that idea from. Guilliman is mentioned at some points in the Horus Heresy among other Primarchs in relation to Horus (such as being one of the two Primarchs Horus sometime sought for councel), so maybe that is where he may have gotten somthing mixed up.

 

(In Know No Fear it is mentioned that perhaps four or five Primarchs could best Guilliman in combat, but that was the impression of an Ultramarine Sergeant, so not exactly a definitive source.)

[Billuriye]

I bet most Primarchs are kinda equal in martial prowess. Some of them however blends their innate psychic powers to their melee even subconsciously. Guilliman is pretty vanilla in that regard so he seems outmatched. That's why Lorgar would probably kill him if he chose to face Guilliman.

[Febelcrofas]

To be honest, I was just happy Horus sliced Erebus' face off. I liked that.

 

Highlight of the book!!!!

[Dark Apostle Erebus]

To be honest, I was just happy Horus sliced Erebus' face off. I liked that.

 

Highlight of the book!!!!

 

But why? :D

[Arachnid99]

To be honest, I was just happy Horus sliced Erebus' face off. I liked that.

 

Highlight of the book!!!!

 

But why? :)

 

Because Erebus is most people's most hated character in the entire series.

[Dark Apostle Erebus]

To be honest, I was just happy Horus sliced Erebus' face off. I liked that.

 

Highlight of the book!!!!

 

But why? :)

 

Because Erebus is most people's most hated character in the entire series.

He's a great character. :) But what I meant (and did ask this in an earlier post) is why Horus sliced Erebus' face off.

[Febelcrofas]

To be honest, I was just happy Horus sliced Erebus' face off. I liked that.

 

Highlight of the book!!!!

 

But why? :)

 

Because Erebus is most people's most hated character in the entire series.

He's a great character. :) But what I meant (and did ask this in an earlier post) is why Horus sliced Erebus' face off.

 

Because Horus just took a level up in bad-assery and punished Erebus for getting a bit too familiar and daring to tell him that he messed up. He then grabs Erebus' special little blade and takes himself a face trophy with a message for Erebus to deliver to the chaos gods. Effectively he says:

 

"THIS IS THE HORUS HERSY, YOU GOT THAT?"

[Dark Apostle Erebus]

To be honest, I was just happy Horus sliced Erebus' face off. I liked that.

 

Highlight of the book!!!!

 

But why? :)

 

Because Erebus is most people's most hated character in the entire series.

He's a great character. :) But what I meant (and did ask this in an earlier post) is why Horus sliced Erebus' face off.

 

Because Horus just took a level up bad-assery and punished Erebus for getting a bit too familiar and daring to tell horus that he messed up. He then grabs Erebus' special little blade and takes himself a face trophy with a message for Erebus to deliver to the chaos gods. Effectively he says:

 

"THIS IS THE HORUS HERSY, YOU GOT THAT?"

Thanks. :)

[Blindhamster]

even Sanguinius couldn't keep up.

 

Sanguinius couldn't keep up during the final fight because

a) He'd already been fighting constantly, often alone, against some of the worst enemies for days without any real rest.

;) Horus by that point isn't really Horus anymore, he's more pumped up on Chaos style steroids than the worlds biggest body builder.

 

Had the above two not been the case, I certainly got the impression from the few snippets I've read that Sanguinius would've at least held his own.

 

Personally, I do not recall ever having read that Guilliman was on par with Horus in terms of fighting skill, and I am not sure where Blindhamster might have gotten that idea from. Guilliman is mentioned at some points in the Horus Heresy among other Primarchs in relation to Horus (such as being one of the two Primarchs Horus sometime sought for councel), so maybe that is where he may have gotten somthing mixed up.

 

(In Know No Fear it is mentioned that perhaps four or five Primarchs could best Guilliman in combat, but that was the impression of an Ultramarine Sergeant, so not exactly a definitive source.)

 

Yeah, my thoughts that Guilliman might've been one of the three were probably based on misremembering that bit from Know No Fear.

 

 

 

As far as The stuff about Sanguinius being able to best Horus under 'normal' circumstances, I'm certain there was some real old fluff for that, and another poster has implied the same, I'm hoping their snooping skills are better and they can find it though.

In Fear to Tread, Sanguinius does (in a brotherly, banter manner) suggest that he's the better warrior, Horus doesn't disagree, he just threatens to pluck his wings. Of course this is far from concrete proof.

There are also a number of other times during the series where Horus has suggested that Sanguinius should've been warmaster.

And while not conclusive, the viewpoint of that Sergeant definitely puts Sanguinius 'up there'

There are other points during the series which have also implied that Sanguinius was at least Horus' equal in combat.

 

And then if we go on Rules in the Betrayal book, Fulgrim is Horus' Equal in terms of WS, with his other stats being similar, Fulgrim even has an equal invulnerable save. Angron stands out as being better in terms of WS, but has worse armour

[Arachnid99]

Rules are far too blunt an instrument because as Primarchs they are all right at the top of the power scale and if you are a normal human (which the rules are based around) facing Vulkan, Curze, Horus and Lorgar your chance of survival is the same, zero. To get a genuine table top comparison you'd have to completely rebase the power chart.

 

To be honest, I was just happy Horus sliced Erebus' face off. I liked that.

 

Highlight of the book!!!!

 

But why? ;)

 

Because Erebus is most people's most hated character in the entire series.

He's a great character. :)

 

I agree he's a great character, he takes some good writing to create someone that loathesome.

[b1soul]

Maybe equal in combat but I agree, Gulliman would not take Horus in close combat. Maybe Angron could as CC is his one and only true forte but in the end, even Sanguinius couldn't keep up.

No other primarch could keep up with chaos horus with all four gods backing him

[Arachnid99]

Maybe equal in combat but I agree, Gulliman would not take Horus in close combat. Maybe Angron could as CC is his one and only true forte but in the end, even Sanguinius couldn't keep up.

No other primarch could keep up with chaos horus with all four gods backing him

 

Actually 40k era Daemon Primarch Angron boosted by 10,000 years of service to Khorne versus 30k era Horus boosted by 4 Gods would be interesting.

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe equal in combat but I agree, Gulliman would not take Horus in close combat. Maybe Angron could as CC is his one and only true forte but in the end, even Sanguinius couldn't keep up.

No other primarch could keep up with chaos horus with all four gods backing him

Define "keep up". Beat, another Daemon Primarch would be necessary. Go toe-to-toe, Angron, Corax, Curze, the Lion and Sanguinius. And that's because those are the CC monsters among the Primarch. Actually, I'm thinking of taking Curze off that list but Curze was able to go toe-to-toe with Corax and the Lion so maybe not.

[Blindhamster]

hadn't realised the Lion was noted as being a noteworthy melee fighter? Though I suppose it makes sense from a 'Knight' point of view.

[Legatus]

Prior to 'Savage Weapons', where he is portrayed as a very skilled swordsman, Jonson's previous fighting creds come mainly from his 24 hour fight against Leman Russ, where neither was able to gain the upper hand against the other. There are very few opportunities to compare the skill levels of the Primarchs, but that fight against Russ should count for something in favour of Jonson's fighting skills.

 

Aside from Guilliman's cultural background, another anecdote about his fighting skill is that he fought a giant, four armed/blades snake Fulgrim. When the smoke had cleared, the fight had ended with Guilliman having received a mere single cut at his neck, which left him mortally wounded, while daemon Fulgrim was nowhere to be found. There is also his fight against Alpharius (which may not actually have happened), where Guilliman is said to have defeated him in a very brief exchange.

[Wade Garrett]

The reason Curze was able to do so well against the Lion in "Savage Weapons" was that he managed to take the fight into an area where he was strong and the Lion wasn't.

 

When the two of them were dueling sword against power claws, Lion was cutting him to pieces...but Konrad managed to close the distance and turn it from a swordfight into nose to nose grappling/bar fight, he took the upper hand and seemed to be on the verge of killing his brother until the Dark Angel Marine whose name escapes me intervened. Second fight, Lion manages to keep it a contest of blades (not blades, fists, feet, elbows, teeth, head butts, etc., which is how Konrad learned to scrap on the mean streets of Nostromo) and he succeeds in hacking Night Haunter to bits.

 

Just saying that, for example, Angron was better at melee than all other Primarchs combined is drastically oversimplify things. Sure, as a former pit fighter he's probably very good at using axes and has some brutal bare knuckle brawling skills, but if, say, Vulkan or Ferrous Manus managed to get ahold of him and change it into a wrestling match, where strength, leverage, and endurance matter a lot more, then the game changes.

 

For an even better example, look at Loken vs Lucius in Horus rising. Lucius outclasses the Luna Wolf so badly in swordsmanship that it's not even funny...in boxing, not so much.

[Bulwyf]

The reason Curze was able to do so well against the Lion in "Savage Weapons" was that he managed to take the fight into an area where he was strong and the Lion wasn't.

 

When the two of them were dueling sword against power claws, Lion was cutting him to pieces...but Konrad managed to close the distance and turn it from a swordfight into nose to nose grappling/bar fight, he took the upper hand and seemed to be on the verge of killing his brother until the Dark Angel Marine whose name escapes me intervened. Second fight, Lion manages to keep it a contest of blades (not blades, fists, feet, elbows, teeth, head butts, etc., which is how Konrad learned to scrap on the mean streets of Nostromo) and he succeeds in hacking Night Haunter to bits.

 

Just saying that, for example, Angron was better at melee than all other Primarchs combined is drastically oversimplify things. Sure, as a former pit fighter he's probably very good at using axes and has some brutal bare knuckle brawling skills, but if, say, Vulkan or Ferrous Manus managed to get ahold of him and change it into a wrestling match, where strength, leverage, and endurance matter a lot more, then the game changes.

 

For an even better example, look at Loken vs Lucius in Horus rising. Lucius outclasses the Luna Wolf so badly in swordsmanship that it's not even funny...in boxing, not so much.

 

I've always thought the key to fighting Angron would be like Batman fighting Bane: cut off the supply of Venom to Bane's brain or in Angron's case why not get behind him and damage the Butcher's Nails? We know for a fact they couldn't remove it without killing him. So it stands to reason that severely damaging it would also kill him.

[Morollan]

Getting back to the subject of the thread, I just finished FTT and have to say it wasn't a book I'm likely to be rereading very often. The characters were, for the most part, wooden and uninteresting. There was little or no sense of the majesty of the Legion. The Angel was reasonably well portrayed and the final scene with Horus was excellent but other than that there was little to recommend it. Sanguinius kicking Ka'Bandha's ass before being felled by a low blow was okay but grabbing the Bloodthirster at the end and basically rubbing his knuckles in its face before pulling its pants over its head and knocking it over kind of robbed the future confrontation of any sense of dread or foreboding.

 

"Ka'Bandha's at the gate?"

rolls up sleeves

"Back in a minute!"

KAPOW!

"What next?"

 

Kyriss was as believable a villain as Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clowns and Revenge of the Teenagers and again, Sanguinius put him down without even breaking a sweat.

 

The Space Wolves were, as ever, an annoyance. It seems the entire HH series from Prospero Burns onwards is now an excuse for why their codex is SM+1. Apologies to any SW fans out there but this whole "Emperor's Executioners" thing is starting to get on my nerves. And the fact that the author had to explain their presence in a blog post doesn't really give a good impression of his writing skills. Show, don't tell. We should know this from reading the book, not from footnotes, blog posts or directors commentaries.

 

The overall plot was good and whilst his hands were tied on the bigger picture I think Mr Swallow did his best to add in a few twists and to expand on the story but I'm afraid his writing just didn't do the plot justice. We were told over and over about how the Blood Angels went nuts when the Angel fell but again it should be "show, don't tell"!

 

I'm a huge BA fan but this book left me feeling a little deflated.

[Honda]

For an even better example, look at Loken vs Lucius in Horus rising. Lucius outclasses the Luna Wolf so badly in swordsmanship that it's not even funny...in boxing, not so much

 

One of my all time favorite scenes in the HH, made even more glorious because I so dislike the Emperor's Children (except for those few who remained loyal).

 

Despite the wandering on and off the path, this has been a very enjoyable and enlightening discussion.

 

Cheers,

[Mykra]

The Space Wolves were, as ever, an annoyance. It seems the entire HH series from Prospero Burns onwards is now an excuse for why their codex is SM+1. Apologies to any SW fans out there but this whole "Emperor's Executioners" thing is starting to get on my nerves. And the fact that the author had to explain their presence in a blog post doesn't really give a good impression of his writing skills. Show, don't tell. We should know this from reading the book, not from footnotes, blog posts or directors commentaries.

 

 

Wait, why would he need a blog post for that? I thought it was made crystal clear in the book during their conversation inside the temporary rooms the Angels gave them upon the ship. Paraphrasing, but didn't one of them even say 'If Magnus can fall, then who else?', and then the talk about if they did kill the Angel, the rest of the Legion would kill them where they stood...one way trip and all that.

 

I was more taken aback with the arrogance of Russ and the Sigilite thinking a couple of space puppies could take down a Primarch, especially of one the Angel's skills, than being confused as to their orders. Don't get offended Wolves - if we sent a Librarian and some Sang Guard to knock off Russ, I'd have the exact same reaction 'C'mon, no way are they taking him down with that'.