Could some one explain close combat to me?

[Demoulius]

Hello guys.

Having stopped playing 40K a good while since the 6th edition rules came up ive played the game twice now. Both games were 1000 points against different players and both times we had a huge part of the game that were completly gobsmacked at.

How the blazes does close combat work now?

Il share a picture:

Those were my assault marines against my buddies vanilla marines this afternoon. As you can see I got a poor roll on the charge range and only got 6 inches to get into contact. Only my sargeant was able to get into base to base as I lost a marine to overwatch.

Now we made the charge move, overwatch, terrain etc etc. Now comes the fighting. Or it should..... Do you fight before or after piling in? Do you pile in, then fight at iniatiative or fight and do all the piling in later. Do you just pile in all models first and THEN fight?

Who wrote the assault section? Its confusing as hell!

[*Furyou Miko]

Just clear your mind, calm yourself and reread it with fresh eyes.

 

Roughly, the order goes;

 

Declare Assault

Overwatch

Roll charge distance

move assaulting models.

Initiative order begins.

Issue challenges.

Each model piles in and attacks at its own Initiative.

Initiative order ends.

Calculate combat resolution.

[Demoulius]

Cheers for that Furyou Miko.

 

We arent native english speaks and even with your explanation and rereading it im still confused....

 

For example a power axe/fist means you hit at iniative 1. Do you pile in at your normal I or I1. Does every model pile and then the attacking start or does the attacking start before the piling in? So many contradictions in this text

[Ajax Tlamunus]

Cheers for that Furyou Miko.

 

We arent native english speaks and even with your explanation and rereading it im still confused....

 

For example a power axe/fist means you hit at iniative 1. Do you pile in at your normal I or I1. Does every model pile and then the attacking start or does the attacking start before the piling in? So many contradictions in this text ;)

 

Demoulius, I understand where you're coming from. English was my second language... But nobody publishes roleplaying games or wargames in Afrikaans. Maar ek hou vertel Games Workshop dat hulle 'n winkel oop in Kaapstad!

 

Models pile in at their effective initiative, so in the case of a powerfist of thunderhammer, this will be I1. You'll find some people making truly pendantic arguments about the rules saying slightly different things, like "strike at Initiative 1," "pile in at your Initiaitve Step," and a thousand other ways to play lawyer-ball with the rules. They're being silly. If a weapon or bit of wargear tells you a model fights at Initiative X or Inititative Y, then it does all of the close combat steps at that initiative.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

yep, whats been said above is correct.

 

You move in 3 Inches with whatever initiative you use in combat. Then, all those at that initiative step roll, carry on until it is all over.

 

example: Assault Marines strike at I4 while a Guardsman hits at I3. The Assault Marine is too far away from a model in close combat to fight, or is not in base contact with an enemy model. He piles in 3" in order to fight whereby he rolls to hit, then to wound and the guardsmen role to save.

 

Then it is I3 step and the Guardsmen pile in as close as they can 3", roll to hit and then to wound and Marines take saving throws.

 

If you have a Sergeant at I1, he waits until all the prior steps are complete, then he starts. So, 3" pile in, roll to hit, then to wound. When this is complete, resolve combat in the normal fashion.

 

I hope this helps :)

[Demoulius]

well thats how we figured its how we play it, but when we start reading it all falls apart ;)

 

I think the confusion comes from the fact that you determmine who is engaged at the start of the initiative step. Which would mean you do it before piling in. Or not as the piling is is also done at the start of the initiative step...

 

What also causes confusion is that it says "models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" which to us implies that do it at the very second as it is reached. The part is bolded as well and together with the previous statement causing confusion about when and how you pile in were unsure of how to go about it. we solved after a few minutes of debating to just use the old rules and find out later.

 

I have another question about combat. In the previous edition you could use krak grenades against walkers but were hitting on 6's. You can still use them but we cant find anywhere that your still hitting on 6's. Did they just remove this part of the rule? My marines couldnt flee from combat because of those darned grenades (they could glance if they hit) and since we were playing with the old rules since that charge happend before the dread charge my marines were basicly toast. My opponent couldnt believe they removed the "you hit them on 6's" part so dident want to play it as hitting on WS. Tbh though it was his dread that was in contact so I think he simply dident want to lose it something but eh ;)

 

Much confusion!

[Ajax Tlamunus]

Yes, you use krak grenades as a Weapon Skill vs. Weapon Skill attack in close combat with Dreadnoughts (and other Walkers). So a Dreadnought had better think twice about engaging dedicated assault units in close combat without support... Given even minor support (like from 5+ freindly Tactical Marines) and things start looking better... but the days of a single Mars-pattern Dreadnought holding the line by himself are gone.

[Morticon]

Grenades now hit on regular WS vs walkers- and hit on rear armour if the walker is immobed.

 

Also, we can now use Krak grenades on MCs :(

[Demoulius]

HAH! I knew it! :)

 

also something we found (somewhat combat related) you can now regroup even if an enemy is within 6 inches and with ATSKNF you do it automaticly :) something that he couldnt wrap his mind around and kept finding for the rules saying I had to keep fleeing :(

 

on another note, i like how sargeants now seem to have a bigger impact :) and the challenging of opponents also kinda fits. We ALWAYS did this anyway but now were protected from those pesky powerfists whilst were doing it :(

[Drunken Angel]

So a librarian or Sgt with an axe/hammer/fist will only move into combat on the axes initiative 1, therefore remaining protected from CC till he moves in and strikes at least ensuring low I models with powerfull CC weapons get to strike ?

[Brother_Angelus]

Wounds still travel through units from closest to farthest, so I1 can still be killed off before they strike, but with correct positioning they're the last ones to do so.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

So a librarian or Sgt with an axe/hammer/fist will only move into combat on the axes initiative 1, therefore remaining protected from CC till he moves in and strikes at least ensuring low I models with powerfull CC weapons get to strike ?

 

Wounds still travel through units from closest to farthest, so I1 can still be killed off before they strike, but with correct positioning they're the last ones to do so.

 

The enemy also gets to make his "pile in" moves on his Initiative. Most of my Deathwing Terminator squads will have at least one member with an I4 weapon, specifically to handle opponents with an I1 power axe, `fist, or thunder hammer. Correct positioning by my opponent, poor positioning by me, dumb luck, and a thousand other variables means this won't always work, but I want to have the tool in my toolbox.

 

Contrariwise, when I run my infantry-heavy Imperial Guard lists, many of my Sergeants will now be issued power axes instead of power swords. With 20-50 bodies in the squad, I should be able to throw enough redshirts in front of the enemy use the brave actions of my enlisted men to keep the I1 Sergeants around to do their job.

[Gentlemanloser]

You should discuss Initiative and Piles Ins with your opponent.

 

The rules are confusing and there are two options;

 

1: Iniative and Initative Step are seperate

 

So a Marine with I4 and an Unwieldy Weapon would pile in on I4 and attack on I1. A Grey Knight with a Nemesis Force Halberd would attack at I6 and pile in after attacking at I4.

 

Frag Grenades don't work, as they only negate Iniative] Penalties, and Terrain effects the[/b]Iniative Step[/b] you attack at (But Plasma Grenades work fine).

 

2: Iniative and Iniative Step are interchangable

 

So a Marine wirh I4 and an Unwiedly Weapon would pile in at I1 *and* attack at I1. But a Grey Knight with The Quickening and a Nemesis Daemonhammer would Pile in at I10 and attack at I10 and Difficult Terrain wouldn't effect this (the same for an Eldar Howling Banshee with a Power Axe during the first round of combat).

 

Frag Grenades work fine.

 

Until GW FAQ the BRB and clarify the issue, you should probably discuss this with your opponents.

[Drunken Angel]

You should discuss Initiative and Piles Ins with your opponent.

 

The rules are confusing and there are two options;

 

1: Iniative and Initative Step are seperate

 

So a Marine with I4 and an Unwieldy Weapon would pile in on I4 and attack on I1. A Grey Knight with a Nemesis Force Halberd would attack at I6 and pile in after attacking at I4.

 

Frag Grenades don't work, as they only negate Iniative] Penalties, and Terrain effects the[/b]Iniative Step[/b] you attack at (But Plasma Grenades work fine).

 

2: Iniative and Iniative Step are interchangable

 

So a Marine wirh I4 and an Unwiedly Weapon would pile in at I1 *and* attack at I1. But a Grey Knight with The Quickening and a Nemesis Daemonhammer would Pile in at I10 and attack at I10 and Difficult Terrain wouldn't effect this (the same for an Eldar Howling Banshee with a Power Axe during the first round of combat).

 

Frag Grenades work fine.

 

Until GW FAQ the BRB and clarify the issue, you should probably discuss this with your opponents.

 

Anyone want to explain how GK initiative 6/10 models deal with Hammer of Wrath initiative 10 jump pack autohit attacks? obviously you have all been pulled in and are base to base already ?

[Ajax Tlamunus]

Two models with the same initative just strike at the same time, just like when I4 Tactical Marines smack around I4 Tactical Marines.

[Gentlemanloser]

Anyone want to explain how GK initiative 6/10 models deal with Hammer of Wrath initiative 10 jump pack autohit attacks? obviously you have all been pulled in and are base to base already ?

 

The GKs doing the Hammer?

 

It all depends on how you view Iniative and Iniative Step.

 

How do you view them?

[Dam13n]

So a Marine wirh I4 and an Unwiedly Weapon would pile in at I1 *and* attack at I1. But a Grey Knight with The Quickening and a Nemesis Daemonhammer would Pile in at I10 and attack at I10 and Difficult Terrain wouldn't effect this (the same for an Eldar Howling Banshee with a Power Axe during the first round of combat).

 

Quickening and Unwieldy are fixed stat modifiers, according to the BRB you

should roll off to see which takes priority. At least that's my interpretation

of how they've written it. (In other words, dumb luck will determine if you

attack at I10 or I1)

 

I do agree that an FAQ would be most appreciated as there is a lot of room

for interpretation in some of the rules where they relate to many of the 5th

edition codices.

 

Laterz...

[Morollan]

You should discuss Initiative and Piles Ins with your opponent.

 

The rules are confusing and there are two options;

 

1: Iniative and Initative Step are seperate

 

So a Marine with I4 and an Unwieldy Weapon would pile in on I4 and attack on I1. A Grey Knight with a Nemesis Force Halberd would attack at I6 and pile in after attacking at I4.

 

Frag Grenades don't work, as they only negate Iniative] Penalties, and Terrain effects the[/b]Iniative Step[/b] you attack at (But Plasma Grenades work fine).

 

2: Iniative and Iniative Step are interchangable

 

So a Marine wirh I4 and an Unwiedly Weapon would pile in at I1 *and* attack at I1. But a Grey Knight with The Quickening and a Nemesis Daemonhammer would Pile in at I10 and attack at I10 and Difficult Terrain wouldn't effect this (the same for an Eldar Howling Banshee with a Power Axe during the first round of combat).

 

Frag Grenades work fine.

 

Until GW FAQ the BRB and clarify the issue, you should probably discuss this with your opponents.

 

Whilst all of the above is true, I think that, outside of tournament games, most people will be playing the way that was described in earlier posts.

[Drunken Angel]

Somehow the thought of some GK magic making a hammer initiative 10 just rings hollow. Can someone check this in the BRB because GK dont have a power called "quickening" they have Quicksilver "That unit is Initiative 10 for the rest of the turn"

Then in the codex hammer entry for GK "A Nemesis Daemon hammer uses the rules for thunder

hammers (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

I dont have the rulebook but I dont think GK get I10 hammers as much as they like to think they do.

[cielaq]

The thing is Unwieldy does not make you I1, it just make you strike at I1, so there is no conflict with Quickening. You are still I10 fro all other purposes. But it was discussed for quite a long time, and it's still not 100% clear if this is correct interpretation.

[dizzy-xc]

Just clear your mind, calm yourself and reread it with fresh eyes.

 

Roughly, the order goes;

 

Declare Assault

Overwatch

Roll charge distance

move assaulting models.

Initiative order begins.

Issue challenges.

Each model piles in and attacks at its own Initiative.

Initiative order ends.

Calculate combat resolution.

 

Ummm, so 'move assaulting models' means I move my entire unit that is charging into base to base with the enemy and THEN Initiative order begins?

[Morollan]

Just clear your mind, calm yourself and reread it with fresh eyes.

 

Roughly, the order goes;

 

Declare Assault

Overwatch

Roll charge distance

move assaulting models.

Initiative order begins.

Issue challenges.

Each model piles in and attacks at its own Initiative.

Initiative order ends.

Calculate combat resolution.

 

Ummm, so 'move assaulting models' means I move my entire unit that is charging into base to base with the enemy and THEN Initiative order begins?

 

You move the assaulting unit the distance you rolled on your charge and try to get as many into b2b as possible. You then start working through initiative steps, performing a pile in and resolving attacks at each step before moving onto the next.

[Raeven]

Just clear your mind, calm yourself and reread it with fresh eyes.

 

Roughly, the order goes;

 

Declare Assault

Overwatch

Roll charge distance

move assaulting models.

Initiative order begins.

Issue challenges.

Each model piles in and attacks at its own Initiative.

Initiative order ends.

Calculate combat resolution.

 

Ummm, so 'move assaulting models' means I move my entire unit that is charging into base to base with the enemy and THEN Initiative order begins?

 

 

Yes. Charging is a completely seperate sub-phase that occurs before the fight sub-phase (in which initiative steps are included).

 

Move entire unit. If you can't reach base to base, charge fails. If you can, remaining units not in base to base pile in and attack at initiative .

[Gentlemanloser]

Somehow the thought of some GK magic making a hammer initiative 10 just rings hollow.

 

Banshees?

 

Magic is magic. /meh

 

Can someone check this in the BRB because GK dont have a power called "quickening" they have Quicksilver "That unit is Initiative 10 for the rest of the turn"

 

Heh, what do you now. I've been calling it The Quicening for absolutley ages. And I'm not even a Highlander fan.

 

The power is called Quciksilver.

 

Then in the codex hammer entry for GK "A Nemesis Daemon hammer uses the rules for thunder

hammers (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

I dont have the rulebook but I dont think GK get I10 hammers as much as they like to think they do.

 

You should reread my post. It all depends on *how* you view Iniative and Iniative Step to be related.

 

Either way breaks *something*.

 

Quickening and Unwieldy are fixed stat modifiers, according to the BRB you

should roll off to see which takes priority.

 

You're missing the pat in the BRB where it states Codex > BRB.

 

Quicksilver and Banshee Masks are Codex rules. Unwieldy is a BRB rule.

 

By the conflict resolution given to us in the BRB, Quicksilver/Banshee Mas > Unwieldy. If Iniative == Iniative Step.

[Drunken Angel]

The Grey Knight codex has an entry on hammers "A Nemesis Daemon hammer uses the rules for thunder hammers (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)".

The GK codex directs you to refer to the BRB for using hammers. Quicksilver can give your unit I10 but any model with a hammer uses the BRB rules as directed by the GK codex end of story.