C: SM Heavy Support/Anti Armor in 6th Edition

[UltraTacSgt]

How do you think 6th Edition has affected the heavy support options available to Codex Compliant Space Marines.

 

I am a new player and I plan to run an infantry based list (I just prefer infantry) in the 1000pts and under range (750-1000). I really like Devastators and it seems like the inability to be stunned/shaken/immobilized is an advantage, however their cost is nigh on ridiculous (seems like GW reeeaaaaally wanted people to have to buy expensive armor models). A 10 man Dev squad with 2xML/2xPC or 4xML is 250pts and 230pts respectively; and for those points you are looking at two Preds/Vindis/Dreads at the least, 3-4 MM land speeders. That isn't even mentioning that I can give ML's/PC's/LC's/MM's to my Tacs and Sternguard for cheaper and let them take heavy weapon duties.

 

It seems that the hull points change has made vehicles it harder to get lucky one hit kills on vehicles, but made it easier to focus fire them down with more mediocre anti armor weapons.

 

So the question is....Even with my preference for infantry and therefore Devastators, do the benefits (points cost and utility) of armored options (preds/vindis/speeders/dreads) stack up enough to make Devastators a bad choice? What are the pros and cons of infantry based heavy weapons vs armor based heavy weapons.

 

Please keep in mind this is in reference to battles of 1000pts or less with an eye to the future of building up to 1500pts.

[ShadowHaunt]

I never thought Devastators were a poor choice, even in 5th edition, where armor was king. A squad of Devs has several advantages over a tank like a Predator, as well as several disadvantages. The most obvious advantages are the inability to be taken out with a single lucky shot (well, not counting pie plates, anyhow), and a greater opportunity to take advantage of cover. A second advantage, often overlooked, is the volume of firepower a single Dev squad packs. Depending on loadout, you've got the option for 4 S7 AP2 blasts, 4 shots of S9 AP1, or 12 S5 AP4 shots, any of which has a pain range of at least 36". I've had a single plasma cannon Dev squad vaporize a 10-strong Chaos Marine squad in a single round of firing. Devastators can also benefit from Chapter Tactics and Psyker powers, where tanks cannot. This means you can Infiltrate them (with Shrike), gain rerolls with Bolter Drill (with Lysander), or count Multi-Meltas as Twin-Linked (with Vulkan).

 

At lower points levels, it may make sense to save points by not filling out the squad to 10, depending on the rest of your list. The additional marines with bolters aren't adding much power to the unit, since most of the time you should be targeting things beyond bolter range, anyhow. You can augment their strength further by getting them a Razorback with a complementary weapon, effectively getting you a fifth heavy weapon, for as little as 200 points total.

[rubix41]

6th Edition Devastators

 

@ 1000pts - I have decided to keep it cheap - although contrary to some of the conventions in the thread:

* 3 heavy weapons (Might go back to four after my next play test)

* Min Squad (4 + a Sarge)

* Razorback - for extra weapons and transport. (Trying to keep that cheap too!)

 

 

For 200pts or less, I have got enough firepower to distract my opponent to want to commit but not enough to think that it was a waste. Since I have a small squad, Razorback's are fine and, without too many upgrades, it's a good block, cheap transport and an extra weapon on top.

[Feste]

I think they're all good options. I've played against all of them, and there's nothing in the Heavy slot which isn't a bit scary. Here's a few unconnected thoughts though.

 

inability to be stunned/shaken/immobilized is an advantage

 

It's worth mentioning that this is far less likely nowadays. While a Predator might be glanced to death, it's going to take penetrating hits to stop it shooting back. In the same vein, while a Predator might not have the firepower of a Devastator squad, it does now have superior movement and should be able to get onto the flanks if need be.

 

A Devastator squad, kitted out with the right kit, can Overwatch. It's not a huge issue, but it does mean that they're somewhat less likely to fall over when assaulted. Pretty good compared that to most vehicles which fall over when assaulted.

 

A Razorback for the squad would, as well as transport + firepower, help to block unwanted anti-infantry fire. If you can get it between the squad and things they're not yet ready to shoot at, then it might help survival time somewhat.

[DerekLee688]

Devestators are more durable against AT weapons, have a chance to become scoring when rolling missions, and can be broken into two smaller units for one Heavy slot.

 

Heavy armor is still more mobile(they can snap fire too), they are more durable against anti infantry weapons(except necron gauss), and usually carry heavier heavy weapons(nothing devestators carry is S:10 AP:1 or large blast).

 

It comes down to what you need in your army, devestators tend to help static armies like gunlines or help lock down firing lanes and sections of the board so your other more mobile units can chase or flank your opponent.

 

Heavy armor can still be used as gunline, depending on how durable the unit is, but can also be used to support an agressive army by following your army down the field. Predators AV13 front armor make's it a good back field shooter but it's AV11 sides prevent it from running around the middle of the field. Land raiders are better at shrugging off weapons fire from all sides and going toe to toe with enemy units.

[UltraTacSgt]

Thanks for the advice guys,

 

I like that you all were more fair towards the Devastators then most other people have been.

 

Keeping in mind the primary duty of this unit is to be long range anti armor/MC's, AV13 and weaker. (I consider AV14 a whole different animal which should be addressed with meltas)

 

I mathhammer'ed it out and against AV13 at range, 150-170pts of Devs (4xML/3xML,1xLC) has roughly equal chance to damage as 165pts of Pred (full on Annihilator w/ TL las and las sponsons). The Annihilator has a slightly better chance to instant kill due to the strength of the LC's, but the number of shots the Devs put out gives them a slightly more reliable chance to glance.

---Draw between the two.

 

Outside of the main duty of the unit (long range anti armor, AV13 and weaker), the Devs are still highly useful for anti infantry/MC/IC duties, whereas the Annihilator Pred is only effective against IC/MC's and marginally effective against infantry.

---Advantage, Devastators.

 

The Devs will have limited mobility but will be able to lock down a 48" circular zone (which I imagine is the better part of most game tables) from any enemy, and will be able to more easily take advantage of cover (techmarines are a high likelihood later down the road). The Annihilator can affect 48" of armor/MC's/solo IC's but not infantry or IC's in units, and will have a harder time getting cover saves, but will have a high degree of mobility.

---Advantage, I am too inexperienced to determine

 

My new question is how important is mobility to the primary mission of this unit (mentioned above)? At 1000pts or less it should be able to succeed or fail its primary mission by turn 3 and move to its secondary mission of all around utility. Also worth noting is that by increasing the Dev squad cost to 190pts I can add a razorback which could alleviate the mobility issue as well as provide extra cover, ranged fire support, and close assault deterrence.

 

If I deploy intelligently how important really is mobility to a unit that is supposed to pound the enemies heavy long range capabilities right off the bat and everything else from there is just extra gravy on the biscuits?

[Feste]

how important really is mobility to a unit that is supposed to pound the enemies heavy long range capabilities right off the bat and everything else from there is just extra gravy on the biscuits?

You'd be surprised how important mobility is. For everything. I'm getting the idea that just moving back 6" will really cause problems for assaulters nowadays, with the random charge length and Overwatch.

 

Also, if you setup your 4 Lascannon Devastator squad in one area, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm not going to put a vehicle section opposite. Instead you'll get jump pack assault troops or bikers. Or even if your Devastators do a great job and wipe out all they're targets by Turn 3, you'll still want to redeploy so that they can help over sections of the battle. Being able to redeploy is really useful.

 

I also think part of your question might be wrong. I'm not entirely sure Predators should be sitting back pounding away. They've got the mobility now, and they'll need it to stay away from assaulters and to support a thrust down the flank.