Sviar Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Astelan, an original member of the Dark Angels who was transported several millennia into the present when the Warp Storm tore Caliban apart, tells this unorthodox version of the events during the Betrayal. Astelan claims that it was the Lion who betrayed the Dark Angels, not Luther. I don't believe that there is any truth in this, but then again I have not read Angels of Darkness. Has anyone read Angels of Darkness by Gav? Does Gav paint the Lion as a betrayer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Astelan, an original member of the Dark Angels who was transported several millennia into the present when the Warp Storm tore Caliban apart, tells this unorthodox version of the events during the Betrayal. Astelan claims that it was the Lion who betrayed the Dark Angels, not Luther. I don't believe that there is any truth in this, but then again I have not read Angels of Darkness. Has anyone read Angels of Darkness by Gav? Does Gav paint the Lion as a betrayer? Astelyan does not like Lion. But he did not say that Leo was a Traitor. Only hinted at this possibility. Astelyan said that Lion is mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 By reading Angels of Darkness and other books you'll realise that what says on the tin isn't always the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Astelan said The Lion was largely inactive during the Heresy because he was waiting to see who won. Gav said in his intro to the book, in a reprinted version, that he finished typing that and immediately said to himself, woooaaaahh!!!. He also said Astelans statement is that of a dirty, dirty traitor and should be taken as such. The current HH novels are currently contradicting Astelans claim. Cheers, Jono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 He also said Astelans statement is that of a dirty, dirty traitor and should be taken as such. The current HH novels are currently contradicting Astelans claim. Gav said: Can you believe the word of a traitor? For that matter, is Astelan really a traitor, or the true follower of the Emperor's vision? Do Boreas's actions and his eventual doubts, perhaps conversion even, lend credence to Astelan's arguments? Alternatively, does the fact that Boreas's own experiences of abandonment weaken his resolve and create an unwitting sympathy with Astelan? I could go on, to talk about the Old Legion versus New Legion conflict, or the catalytic role played by the shadowy gene-seed thief (who is the enigmatic Cypher, for those who haven't guessed), but there isn't space. I'm never going to say one way or the other, because it has always been my intent that readers get to decide and debate these issues for themselves. traitor, or the true follower of the Emperor's vision? :) Hint: "The Lion". Nurgle->Tuchulcha&Primarch... oh... poor Lion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Astelan, an original member of the Dark Angels who was transported several millennia into the present when the Warp Storm tore Caliban apart, tells this unorthodox version of the events during the Betrayal. Astelan claims that it was the Lion who betrayed the Dark Angels, not Luther. I don't believe that there is any truth in this, but then again I have not read Angels of Darkness. Has anyone read Angels of Darkness by Gav? Does Gav paint the Lion as a betrayer? Angels of Darkness is a really good book. At the time its ending made quite an impact as a Fallen (Astelan) claims quite convincingly that the Lion waited to see who would win before he chooses sides (so not a loyalist nor a traitor by conviction but an opportunist with no moral compass). The question therefore was, does Astelan speak the truth or does he lie? It took 7-8 years before other BL publications cleared this up (ADBs "Savage Weapons" put an end to speculation), putting the Lion firmly on the loyalist side. So it turns out Astelan was either knowingly lying or it was just his interpertation of events he couldn't possibly have a clear idea about. I recommend you read the book if you can - I really think it's worth it, for a number of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 The current HH novels are currently contradicting Astelans claim. Yes, partly. Lion was not a traitor, but he had been deceived by Chaos. Like the Astelan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hinti Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 ADB's "Savage Weapon" ehhhhhm what?? never heard about this!!!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (ADBs "Savage Weapons" put an end to speculation), putting the Lion firmly on the loyalist side. Lion thinks that he firmly on the loyalist side. Astelan thinks that he firmly on the loyalist side. :))) "The Lion" -- Lion was tricked by Chaos. "Fallen Angels" -- Astelan was tricked by Chaos. heh! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I recommend you read the book if you can - I really think it's worth it, for a number of reasons. I read "Savage Weapon". And "The Lion", which is its sequel. There's a mixed story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I remember reading somewhere that Angels of Darkness gives the reader a view of how the mind of a Fallen works. Not that it is a definite truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Frankly, I hope that the HH authors muddy it up a bit. Angels of darkness was awesome. Having the DA almost be a traitor legion, and having it really unclear if the Fallen or the Legion fell first is gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I remember reading somewhere that Angels of Darkness gives the reader a view of how the mind of a Fallen works.Not that it is a definite truth. Fallen are different. Not all of them in Chaos. It is written in the Codex. And... "The Lion" was written not by Fallen. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hinti Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 *grml* Those are EBooks.........hate that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Frankly, I hope that the HH authors muddy it up a bit. Angels of darkness was awesome. Having the DA almost be a traitor legion, and having it really unclear if the Fallen or the Legion fell first is gold. DA is NOT the treacherous Legion. They are Legion with a dramatic history. Epigraph "the Lion" ‘There is but one reason and one reason alone in the exercise of power: to further one’s agenda. Be it selfish or altruistic, such agenda should be the whole of one’s concern without distraction if power is to be expended to its benefit. One need only look to the example of the Emperor’s Great Crusade for proof of this eternal truth; when distraction came it was to the ruin of all.’ – Lyaedes, Intermissions, M31 hate that! :lol: Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 *grml*Those are EBooks.........hate that! You can buy as part of the age of darkness book IIRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Traitor is a pretty loaded word, especially when used without any definition/discussion. Was the Lion a traitor to the Emperor? Not in his mind, not even with deciding that the Librarians shouldn't be shackled. He did not betray the Emperor, but he certainly feels that Girly-man might be headed that way it seems. Is the Emperor a traitor to Humankind for trying to spread the "Imperial Truth" when he specifically knows that the Warp exists, there are demons, religious fervor does seem to affect things, and he himself was so powerful that he could be considered a god by many? A lot of this stuff depends on your point of view. The real key to explore, IMO, is what was the Lion's goal originally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 As captain said it is firmly established that El Johnson is on the loyal side. The delay was not on purpose it had valid reasons and the DA were delayed along with the SWs, lets add them on the traitors list too? Those four to six lines of Astelans dialogue were were an unexpected idea that came suddenly to Gav, he said so himself (probably while on the outhouse, giving a battle and reading newspaper B)) and added there to add an exciting topic for discussion among DA fans. Well it seems after so many years he was pretty successful and proves that men have the best ideas coming to them when using the golden throne! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 A lot of this stuff depends on your point of view. The real key to explore, IMO, is what was the Lion's goal originally? Lion was loyal to the Emperor, but... he was ready to fight against all other legions, even agaist Ultramarines. He did not destroy Tuchulcha, demonic machine. It's his fault, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanfield Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 oh shock gasp a badie that.......lies ,proper evil that of course the dark angels arent traitors back in the day things went a bit wobbley and we cannt have wobble marines so they hid it basicly clean the carpet after the party before dad gets home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Well it seems after so many years he was pretty successful and proves that men have the best ideas coming to them when using the golden throne! That raises the question... Does Gav eat 1000 psyker souls a day? B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 As captain said it is firmly established that El Johnson is on the loyal side. The delay was not on purpose it had valid reasons and the DA were delayed along with the SWs, lets add them on the traitors list too? Those four to six lines of Astelans dialogue were were an unexpected idea that came suddenly to Gav, he said so himself (probably while on the outhouse, giving a battle and reading newspaper B)) and added there to add an exciting topic for discussion among DA fans. Well it seems after so many years he was pretty successful and proves that men have the best ideas coming to them when using the golden throne! Matter is not in a delay. There everything is worse. Those four to six lines of Astelans dialogue were were an unexpected idea that came suddenly to Gav, he said so himself (probably while on the outhouse, giving a battle and reading newspaper B)) and added there to add an exciting topic for discussion among DA fans. To be continued... "Ravenwing" is a sequel of AofD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hinti Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 *grml*Those are EBooks.........hate that! You can buy as part of the age of darkness book IIRC Ah very good............THX. I have it, its in the waiting Line to be read. @eyeslikethunder Simple Fact: I prefer Printed Stuff....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'm not 100% convinced that everything that utilizes the Warp is "demonic" in origin, as that would potentially mean the the Emperor, the Primarchs, every psyker, and all Eldar farseers are demonic in nature/origin as well. From what I remember of the machine in the Lion is that it's described as a Warp utilizing engine, not a demonic one specifically. I'll get back to a different point though... The Emperor himself is a huge liar. ;) The Imperial Truth was far from the truth. The Lion knows this first-hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'm not 100% convinced that everything that utilizes the Warp is "demonic" in origin, This is a special case. Nurgle was pleased when Leo not destroyed and took Tuchulcha. It was Nurgle's goal. Tuchulcha knew about it. In general, Lion cheated. It's a trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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