The Lion did not betray the DA.

[Kewl Imp]

The would most definetely say the Lion was never a traitor. At very worst, a bit misguided in the way he did things because he rarely discussed his plans in great details with even his closest officers. I haven't read the other books, only the HH books and Angel of Darkness. Astelon was seeing what he wanted to see. He got banished to Caliban without a reason why, so he assumed his it was because he was feriously loyal to the Emporor that the Lion would go traitor if it should save his life and legion. A huge difference in perpecion.

 

Now the one person would could truly be called a traitor is Luther. There is no room for guessing, he was rebelling against the IoM because of his desire to "protect" Caliban.

 

This is my thoughts on it. Most of all, I'm sorry for the misspelling brothers.

[Reinen]

The would most definetely say the Lion was never a traitor. At very worst, a bit misguided in the way he did things because he rarely discussed his plans in great details with even his closest officers.

 

 

Perhaps Lion will overcome this problem, but all know that this history anyway had the unfortunate end. You have read "The Lion", wasn't it? It remains only to find out more.

 

Luther was a servant of Chaos, but did not speak about it.

[Brother Immolator]

Matter is not in a delay.

There everything is worse.

 

Excuse me but i cant figure out what you mean.

 

At very worst, a bit misguided in the way he did things because he rarely discussed his plans in great details with even his closest officers.

 

Not misguided, singular in purpose and convinced that all the others would somehow either: fail, loose sight of the target, are incapable, or are traitors.

 

EDIT: All in all he is a true son of his father when you compare those traits.

[Reinen]

Matter is not in a delay.

There everything is worse.

 

Excuse me but i cant figure out what you mean.

 

I'm sorry. I've written about it is not clear.

Lion has a problem - Tuchulcha&Nurgle. May be, this problem is more dangerous than the delay on the way to Terra.

[Brother Immolator]

Matter is not in a delay.

There everything is worse.

 

Excuse me but i cant figure out what you mean.

 

I'm sorry. I've written about it is not clear.

Lion has a problem - Tachulcha&Nurgle. May be, this problem is more dangerous than the delay on the way to Terra.

 

But it has been stated on many novels that even the primarchs were unwittingly manipulated by others. That doesnt mean they are traitors though.

[Reinen]

But it has been stated on many novels that even the primarchs were unwittingly manipulated by others. That doesnt mean they are traitors though.

 

I do not think that Lion is a traitor.

I say that Astelan not lying, he said what he thought.

His explanation of the action of Lion is too simple. He knew nothing about the Tuchulcha.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Hes not a traitor. Maybe he made mistakes, but so do all commanders.

 

As for the warp device...who knows? Possibly Nurgle wanted Lion to take it, or, possibly, the machine itself is playing Lion against Nurgle in order to gain its own freedom? Or Lion will discover it's secrets and force it to serve the DA? Or, it could be the key to the destruction of Caliban?

 

Nothing points to him being a Traitor, manipulated, tricked, yes. But so were many of the other Primarchs, Vulkan, Dorn, Guillieman, Russ, Ferrus Manus and Corax. Does this mean the only loyalists in the universe are the scions of Khan and Sanguinas? No, it does not.

[Reinen]

As for the warp device...who knows? Possibly Nurgle wanted Lion to take it, or, possibly, the machine itself is playing Lion against Nurgle in order to gain its own freedom? Or Lion will discover it's secrets and force it to serve the DA? Or, it could be the key to the destruction of Caliban?

 

 

Wait and see.

 

Nothing points to him being a Traitor, manipulated, tricked, yes. But so were many of the other Primarchs, Vulkan, Dorn, Guillieman, Russ, Ferrus Manus and Corax. Does this mean the only loyalists in the universe are the scions of Khan and Sanguinas?

 

No.

Lion didn't betray DA.

Suspicion fell on him because of his introversion.

True, Lion intended to sacrifice his legion.

[Sviar]

By reading Angels of Darkness and other books you'll realise that what says on the tin isn't always the truth.

 

Your right, I should read more DA books. I just went on a shopping spree on Black Library :) . I added these to my DA collection:

Deathwing story

Easy prey

Savage weapons

The falls of Marakross

Unforgiven

[Reinen]

By reading Angels of Darkness and other books you'll realise that what says on the tin isn't always the truth.

 

Your right, I should read more DA books. I just went on a shopping spreeon Black Library :) . I added these to my DA collection:

Deathwing story

Easy prey

Savage weapons

The falls of Marakross

Unforgiven

 

 

+

 

Descent of Angels

Call of the Lion

Fallen Angels

Angels of Darkness

Purging od Kaddilus

The Lion

Malediction (audiodrama)

Ravenwing (coming soon)

 

;)

[Phoebus]

When "Angels of Darkness" first came out, it caused a huge uproar because - in the eyes of many - it suggested that the Lion was a traitor.

 

I don't want to sound insulting, but I think that a lot of people didn't read the book critically. They took Astelan's word for it that everything he said was true - or at least had some reasonable basis to it. The thing is, though, if you go back and read Astelan and Boreas' dialogues, the former never really presents any evidence. When called on his claims, Astelan simply makes another one. Their back-and-forth ends with Astelan stating that the Lion waited to see who won... but again, there's no proof he offers. Certainly not suficient for an Interrogator-Chaplain, which is a title defined by the conviction of its bearer. Astelan's trump card was seizing on the fact that the Dark Angels had made themselves into something decidedly unheroic. That resonated with Boreas.

 

But again, if you read the story objectively, Astelan never really offers proof for his accusations. In fact, at one point (at the very least) he basically informs the reader that he could not know what the Lion was truly up to.

 

Then "Fallen Angels" came out, and it made it impossible to accept Astelan's claims at face value: he was either an outright liar manipulating Boreas OR the Warp meddled with his memory/sanity. How else, after all, could we reconcile ...

 

 

... his claims of loyalty to the Emperor and the ideals of the Imperium in "Angels of Darkness" with his actions in "Fallen Angels"? In the latter, he stands by Luther as he denounces the Emperor and calls for outright rebellion against the Imperium.

 

 

The we get "Savage Weapons", and we see that the Lion was no fence-sitter. Quite the contrary, he's ...

 

 

... stuck at Thramas due to Warp Storms. Subsequently, Guilliman's invitation to essentially leave the Emperor and the Imperium to their fate is implicit in his decision to fight the Traitors... but also treat the "Loyalists" with perhaps an unfair measure of distrust.

 

 

Enter Tuchalcha. Obviously it remains to be seen wha role this being/artifact will play in the greater storyline, but at this point I'm wondering if it's not simply a "deus ex machina" device to allow the Dark Angels to break free of their captivity and defeat the Night Lords.

[Reinen]

...

 

AofD, FA, etc. are written by various authors, and they have different opinions and different heroes.

Astelan not lying. He said that was thinking. The book describes his thought, he did not like Lion.

Similarly, Lion did not like Guilliman and considered him a traitor. He was wrong. So what?

White would be foolish to write 100 pages of lies, but the author is not an idiot. :))))

 

By the way, how do you explain the fact that Nurgle satisfied with the actions of Lion?

 

P.S. I think the Boreas was a hero and did the right thing. The message of AofD is not a betrayal of the Lion. Chapter must be protected by humanity, and not to pursue their personal goals -- this is the idea of ​​the book.

 

P.P.S. Sorry, my english is not native, i find it hard difficult to substantiate in detail.

[Raven Angel]

You mean the chapter must protect humanity and not let there personal goals get in the way of their duty to the Emperor

[Reinen]

You mean the chapter must protect humanity and not let there personal goals get in the way of their duty to the Emperor

 

Yes.

If Boreas has killed people in order to save himself and genoseed, it would be inconsistent with the precepts of the Emperor. Caplain died to protect the planet. If he did this because of conversations with Astelan, so what?

Survival is not always a victory, death is not necessarily defeated.

 

Space Marine must not fear death.

[pueriexdeus]

I love this forum (B&C) where people from divergent sectors of the universe can share their thoughts/opinions.

 

Oh,,, BTW Astelan is a traitor, and Boreas was questioning his own DA ideology. That is my story, and I'll stick with it.

[Reinen]

Oh,,, BTW Astelan is a traitor, and Boreas was questioning his own DA ideology. That is my story, and I'll stick with it.

 

 

It's your right - stick to your opinion. When all have the same opinion - it is not interesting. <_<

 

But why after conversation with the traitor Boreas acts as a hero?

Strange effects... :pinch:

Wait and see -- сoming soon Rawenwing.

[Captain Semper]

When "Angels of Darkness" first came out, it caused a huge uproar because - in the eyes of many - it suggested that the Lion was a traitor.

 

I don't want to sound insulting, but I think that a lot of people didn't read the book critically. They took Astelan's word for it that everything he said was true - or at least had some reasonable basis to it. The thing is, though, if you go back and read Astelan and Boreas' dialogues, the former never really presents any evidence. When called on his claims, Astelan simply makes another one. Their back-and-forth ends with Astelan stating that the Lion waited to see who won... but again, there's no proof he offers. Certainly not suficient for an Interrogator-Chaplain, which is a title defined by the conviction of its bearer. Astelan's trump card was seizing on the fact that the Dark Angels had made themselves into something decidedly unheroic. That resonated with Boreas.

 

But again, if you read the story objectively, Astelan never really offers proof for his accusations. In fact, at one point (at the very least) he basically informs the reader that he could not know what the Lion was truly up to.

 

Then "Fallen Angels" came out, and it made it impossible to accept Astelan's claims at face value: he was either an outright liar manipulating Boreas OR the Warp meddled with his memory/sanity. How else, after all, could we reconcile ...

 

 

... his claims of loyalty to the Emperor and the ideals of the Imperium in "Angels of Darkness" with his actions in "Fallen Angels"? In the latter, he stands by Luther as he denounces the Emperor and calls for outright rebellion against the Imperium.

 

I guess this is a direction the HH series is generally taking with the "bad" guys (not only Primarchs, but Champions too) - i.e. they beleive that the direction the Emperor is taking the Imperium is flawed and they know better. In this line of thinking, the Emperor and the Imperium are two different things. So (in their minds) it is possible to be pro-Imperium and anti-Emperor. And also the term Imperium can be used to describe the entire of humanity OR the State of the Emperor's authority. In that sense, Astelan could be pro-Imperium (as in caring for humanity's future) and anti-Imperium (as in wanting to destroy the State build by the Emperor becasue he -the Emperor- had it wrong).

 

Also we should look at various BL publications in the context of the period they were written. At the time of the "Angels of Darkness" there were no HH series nor such a wealth of other 40k books. Also the relation of BL with official fluff was not as cemented as it is nowadays. When one was reading "Angels of Darkness" back then one could legitimately have thought that if GW wanted to turn the DAs to the fence-sitter direction and add another layer of darkeness on them, then Astelan could be proved to be speaking the truth. Because it was deliberately not clear from the text that Astelan was not telling the truth. Indeed even today with all the other sources available, one can still argue that, although Astelan was obviously wrong, he could be thinking he was telling the truth. Yes there were conflicts in Astelan's interrogation but what was truth or not was just not clear at the time. It's still not if you read the book out of context - which was the case back then. What really surprised me though is that it took so long for BL to set the record straight... That allowed a lot of people to interpret that as there is indeed some truth in Astelan's claims. And it haunts us even today otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. :pinch:

 

Oh, and "Fallen Angels" sucked! *...and here we go again* <_<

[Reinen]

...

 

 

Position of BL - the truth will never be known finally, "true back" does not exist.

By the way, some of the new rulebook describe Imperium 40K almost the words of Astelan. :pinch:)

 

However, Lion was not a traitor. That's not the idea of ​​the book.

 

The Imperium has survived untold disasters, civil wars and alien invasions. It is a sprawling realm conquered by war and maintained by repression. The Emperor's noble aim of bringing enlightenment has been eroded since his internment upon the Golden Throne. To pacify the masses, the Administratum uses the very tools the Emperor once found so repellant - ignorance, superstition, dogma and stagnation.

 

Hm...

It looks familiar...

Сlaims of Astelan, wasn't it?

Oh, no! Rulebook-6! <_<

[Haranin]

Really, having the big secret be that some dark angels fell is boring. Every legion had or has members that fell to chaos at some point in time.

 

It really just makes the DA look nuts.

 

Having it be much more grey makes the hunt the fallen more interesting. Who were the loyalists, and who were the traitors? Or was it Caliban rebels v. legion? DA going independent, but still loyal to the emperor v. a coalition of caliban rebels (both chaos and non)?

 

I'm interested to see how the HH plays out, and if Z ends up being Cypher in the current timeline.

[Solly]

Really, having the big secret be that some dark angels fell is boring. Every legion had or has members that fell to chaos at some point in time.

 

It really just makes the DA look nuts.

 

Having it be much more grey makes the hunt the fallen more interesting. Who were the loyalists, and who were the traitors? Or was it Caliban rebels v. legion? DA going independent, but still loyal to the emperor v. a coalition of caliban rebels (both chaos and non)?

 

I'm interested to see how the HH plays out, and if Z ends up being Cypher in the current timeline.

 

Afternoon brothers,

 

I think its more to do with the scale of the betrayal. The other legions had only a company or two that where swiftly wiped out (in the rebal legions anyway). The DA lost at least a third (approximatley) of their number and lost their homeworld in the process. if the I did find out they probably would investigate the chapter (and its succesors) to see if that taint still remained. Given the unforgivens tendency to leave a warfront unannoced to (at least in their eyes) to carry out their own, secret agender probably isnt going to help our cause either. The DA know they are still loyal but it doesnt look that way to alot of people outside the chapter. Thats why they try to cover this up and hunt the fallen.

 

i dont think this has really come across that well in the fluff ( i was confused the first time i read it). Even the fluff in the current codex doesnt really explain it that well IMHO. Hopefully this will be clearer in the new codex.

 

I do like the idea of things being grey though... Sounds quiet intriguing ;)

[Reinen]

I think its more to do with the scale of the betrayal. The other legions had only a company or two that where swiftly wiped out (in the rebal legions anyway).

 

heh!

Mutiny on Caliban is a small event compared to the battle on Isstvan, and, moreover, the battle on Terra.

Many Fallen did not even understand what he had done.

The rebellion was meaningless and suffered only because Luther had read bad books. :lol:

 

he DA know they are still loyal but it doesnt look that way to alot of people outside the chapter. Thats why they try to cover this up and hunt the fallen.

 

DA are still loyal.

But they follow the interests of the chapter more, than the interests of mankind.

Boreas thought so because annigilus.

[Bryan Blaire]

Given the new size of the Legions (100K or more Marines) and since the numbers of the Marines at Caliban likely numbered between 5K (the original number being about half the Legion - hence 5K) and 10K, while large, we are talking 5-10% of the Legion going rogue. This is far, far less than the original story of half the Legion.

 

The Dark Angels are in a lot more trouble for the SGM (and possibly the Inner Circle) consorting with and taking advice (and possibly some directives from) a few (or more) Xenos psykers (xenos would be bad enough, but psykers may have been messing with the Marines minds - the horror!) and generally pursuing their own agenda, rather than the sacred (I mean, who wouldn't view a ruling body so at odds with the Emperor, benificent dictatorial liar though he might have been, and his original view for the Empire as sacred and not corrupt at all) agenda of the High Lords of Terra. This is likely the real reason no DA successors have been openly made as has been the case with other Legions, the High Lords have realized they can't control the actions of the Unforgiven in any way, they are still the most autonomous of the Legion left-overs, only matched by the Templars.

 

We can see from The Lion that el'Johnson exercised his power as he saw fit in each situation, even countering the Nikean edict to save his ship and crew and beat back the demons (he called them nephalia? sp?) when needed, something that the Sons of the Lion seem to have inherited as well. I doubt this endears them to Terra.

[Onisuzume]

As captain said it is firmly established that El Johnson is on the loyal side. The delay was not on purpose it had valid reasons and the DA were delayed along with the SWs, lets add them on the traitors list too?

In part because of the SWs.

And... "The Lion" was written not by Fallen.

And what's that?

He knew nothing about the Tuchulcha.

Same goes for me, and the lexicanum doesn't mention it either.

I guess I'll just wait for it to turn up in a codex sometime.

[Reinen]

the Nikean edict to save his ship and crew and beat back the demons (he called them nephalia? sp?)

 

Nephilla.

 

Nephila (one 'l') is a spider.

[Reinen]

As captain said it is firmly established that El Johnson is on the loyal side. The delay was not on purpose it had valid reasons and the DA were delayed along with the SWs, lets add them on the traitors list too?

In part because of the SWs.

And... "The Lion" was written not by Fallen.

And what's that?

 

The story is partly questioned the correctness of Lion.

 

He knew nothing about the Tuchulcha.

Same goes for me, and the lexicanum doesn't mention it either.

I guess I'll just wait for it to turn up in a codex sometime.

 

Lexicanum it's fan-project.

"The Lion" -- the official novella.

Codex of DA? Read p. 20. - the faze v uprizing.

They described a machine similar to Tuchulcha. Or this is Tuchulcha.