The Lion did not betray the DA.

[Bryan Blaire]

Nephilla.

 

Nephila (one 'l') is a spider.

Thanks. I knew it sounds like a corruption of "Nephilim" in some way, but couldn't remember how it was written.

 

Yeah, I know Nephila is a spider genus, part of my work is with them. That's why I wrote Nephalia, not Nephila. :)

[Raven Angel]

The way I see it Astelan was most definetly a traitor to the Lion and a demented individual to boot. However he did not consider himself a traitor to the Emperor. Astelan suffered a kind of psycotic brake after the destruction of Caliban and became overly paranoid about protecting the Imperium from itself. This is what lead to his actions on the world where the Chapter found him. It is a perfect example of the flaw of our Legion's geneseed and how it manifests. All that said it does not mean that some of the things he said aren't true. Astelan turned on the Lion because he believed the Lion had broken his oath to the Emperor by placing the Live of his Legions men above the lives of the people he was suppose to protect. The fact the El Johnson was prone to making apparent arbitrary decisions without explanation meant none of his commanders truly knew his mind. Astelan was Old Guard, Terran, not a Calbinite. He felt his first loyalty of and always would be to the Emperor. 2 facts are not disputable. The Lion kept too many secrets and Astelan did see evidence of what he personally deemed "treasonous battle tactics". Removed from command and exiled to Caliban Astelan drew his own conclusions and it falls to the reader to judge the rightness of them. Perhaps the most important accusation of his however has nothing to do with the Lion directly. Astelan called the whole Chapter traitors because he claimed the Dark Angels use of the Hunt for the Fallen to justify any action, no matter how bad, meant they had placed their honor above their oaths to the Emperor. As much as I love my Chapter in this thing I have to agree with Astelan. Do I think the Lion is a Traitor? Well I guess that will depend on what side of the wreckage we end up on in the end when the dust settles won't it. The story is not over and right now the Lions Sanity is looking a bit frayed.

[Reinen]

The way I see it Astelan was most definetly a traitor to the Lion and a demented individual to boot.

 

In the story "Сall of the Lion" Astelan does not look crazy, and he's not going to betray.

Forgive me, my brothers, but Astelan - muddler.

imho -- he very naive. He deceived many, from Luther, ending with a seedy pirate Trielartes. Shappon too deceived him.

 

But the Imperium Astelan described correctly. :())

 

DA are a little paranoid, this is true. But, why DA not finish Astelan, as it should?

What is meant Shappon, when he said 'Knowledge is power, guard it well'?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

The Astelan in Call of the Lion is not the same individual, mentally, as the Astelan in Angels of Darkness. The latter has been through enough to alter his state of mind into that of a delusional individual.

[Reinen]

The Astelan in Call of the Lion is not the same individual, mentally, as the Astelan in Angels of Darkness. The latter has been through enough to alter his state of mind into that of a delusional individual.

 

Astelan accurately and consistently tells his life story. He approves Guilliman and He does not say anything strange. He looks like a loyal, but does not like Lion. He says nothing delusional. What is it madness?

If Astelan was crazy, the imperial governor on Tarsis not appoint him commander. Madness is a very significant state.

And finally, why do we need DA crazy marine? What is his knowledge? It would be logical to kill him.

[Brother Immolator]

They described a machine similar to Tuchulcha. Or this is Tuchulcha.

 

Wasnt Tuchulcha a warp displacement device? The Faze V uprisings had to do with technorecidivists under the thrall of something that was akin to Artificial Intelligence(s). It makes mention of logic stacks and machine intelligence.

 

EDIT: Oh i saw it now good catch, you are referring to the Nephilim schism... Quite interesting but i still believe it was a freak use of a similar 'catchy' name.

 

Until we know better OFC.

[Reinen]

Wasnt Tuchulcha a warp displacement device? The Faze V uprisings had to do with technorecidivists under the thrall of something that was akin to Artificial Intelligence(s).

 

Tuchulchа is AI. He thinks and speaks. He sees the thoughts of Lion, his guilt. First, he enslaved the inhabitants on Perditus.

Tuchulcha - the name of the demon of Etruscan mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuchulcha

[Brother Immolator]

Wasnt Tuchulcha a warp displacement device? The Faze V uprisings had to do with technorecidivists under the thrall of something that was akin to Artificial Intelligence(s).

 

Tuchulchа is AI. He thinks and speaks. He sees the thoughts of Lion, his guilt. First, he enslaved the inhabitants on Perditus.

 

Good catch indeed then, i havent made the connection :good:

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

The Astelan in Call of the Lion is not the same individual, mentally, as the Astelan in Angels of Darkness. The latter has been through enough to alter his state of mind into that of a delusional individual.

 

Astelan accurately and consistently tells his life story. He approves Guilliman and He does not say anything strange. He looks like a loyal, but does not like Lion. He says nothing delusional. What is it madness?

If Astelan was crazy, the imperial governor on Tarsis not appoint him commander. Madness is a very significant state.

And finally, why do we need DA crazy marine? What is his knowledge? It would be logical to kill him.

So he makes himself one of Luther's greatest lieutenants, knowing full well that he intended to secede from the Imperium, and when questioned claims he had been loyal to the Imperium but the Lion had not? What's more, he panics when he sees a Librarian, although he had no problem with Luther's own, not to mention the sorcery he had dabbled in? He's either a deceitful snake, or a deluded one.

[Reinen]

So he makes himself one of Luther's greatest lieutenants, knowing full well that he intended to secede from the Imperium, and when questioned claims he had been loyal to the Imperium but the Lion had not? What's more, he panics when he sees a Librarian, although he had no problem with Luther's own, not to mention the sorcery he had dabbled in? He's either a deceitful snake, or a deluded one.

 

The reason is that these novels are written by various authors and they have small differences in the plots. You want, that I explained these events?

I can, but it will be long story and my English is not good.

I go on?

or the same reason that the authors and books are different? :P))

[Augustus]

So he makes himself one of Luther's greatest lieutenants, knowing full well that he intended to secede from the Imperium, and when questioned claims he had been loyal to the Imperium but the Lion had not? What's more, he panics when he sees a Librarian, although he had no problem with Luther's own, not to mention the sorcery he had dabbled in? He's either a deceitful snake, or a deluded one.

 

The reason is that these novels are written by various authors and they have small differences in the plots. You want, that I explained these events?

I can, but it will be long story and my English is not good.

I go on?

or the same reason that the authors and books are different? :P))

 

So what contradictory author's writing do you propose we agree upon? ;)

[Reinen]

So what contradictory author's writing do you propose we agree upon? :P

 

Contradictions in the books of BL is quite common, but for them it is possible to think up explanations.

I only asked, the explanations thought up by me are really necessary to you?

If it is necessary, i will make it.

This discrepancy is small and can be easily explained. ;)

[Brother Immolator]

So what contradictory author's writing do you propose we agree upon? :P

 

Contradictions in the books of BL is quite common, but for them it is possible to think up explanations.

I only asked, the explanations thought up by me are really necessary to you?

If it is necessary, i will make it.

This discrepancy is small and can be easily explained. ;)

 

Though you didnt ask me, I am very interested, after all this a public discussion of that very subject. So shoot i say.

[Reinen]

Though you didnt ask me, I am very interested, after all this a public discussion of that very subject. So shoot i say.

 

Thanks!

Tomorrow I will answer and I will try to make less mistakes. :D))

[Phoebus]

AofD, FA, etc. are written by various authors, and they have different opinions and different heroes.

Astelan not lying. He said that was thinking. The book describes his thought, he did not like Lion.

My reading of "Angels of Darkness" differs very drastically from yours, then. Astelan is clearly trying to convince Boreas that:

 

1. He is, in fact, loyal;

2. Luther was not a traitor;

3. Their rebellion was justified because the Lion was not loyal.

 

Similarly, Lion did not like Guilliman and considered him a traitor. He was wrong. So what?

How was he wrong? The short story about Guilliman in the same collection shows him admitting that he will be thought of as a traitor for abandoning the Emperor and the Imperium.

 

White would be foolish to write 100 pages of lies, but the author is not an idiot. :D)))

Who is "White"?

 

By the way, how do you explain the fact that Nurgle satisfied with the actions of Lion?

I think this is pretty simple. Nurgle doesn't need to win Typhon or Mortarion's loyalty. If the Lion gets corrupted, though, that's one more pawn he has... and the forces of the Emperor are weakened even more.

 

P.S. I think the Boreas was a hero and did the right thing. The message of AofD is not a betrayal of the Lion. Chapter must be protected by humanity, and not to pursue their personal goals -- this is the idea of ​​the book.

The virtues Astelan brings up would certainly make the Dark Angels a better Chapter. Boreas certainly made a heroic sacrifice by not sacrificing the people of Piscina. That having been said, Astelan absolutely speaks against the Lion. Once I get home, I'll be more than glad to cite the pertinent passages.

 

P.P.S. Sorry, my english is not native, i find it hard difficult to substantiate in detail.

No problem! :)

 

I guess this is a direction the HH series is generally taking with the "bad" guys (not only Primarchs, but Champions too) - i.e. they beleive that the direction the Emperor is taking the Imperium is flawed and they know better. In this line of thinking, the Emperor and the Imperium are two different things. So (in their minds) it is possible to be pro-Imperium and anti-Emperor. And also the term Imperium can be used to describe the entire of humanity OR the State of the Emperor's authority.

That's certainly possible in theory.

 

In that sense, Astelan could be pro-Imperium (as in caring for humanity's future) and anti-Imperium (as in wanting to destroy the State build by the Emperor becasue he -the Emperor- had it wrong).

The problem is, Astelan's assertions in "Angels of Darkness" simply cannot be reconciled with this actions at the end of "Fallen Angels".

 

Also we should look at various BL publications in the context of the period they were written. At the time of the "Angels of Darkness" there were no HH series nor such a wealth of other 40k books.

Solid point, and I certainly hope that Mike Lee just didn't read "Angels of Darkness", or that the editors at Black Library missed what appeared to be a pretty central concept.

[Haranin]

Maybe there are two Astelans? Ok, stupid, but...

[Brother Immolator]

My reading of "Angels of Darkness" differs very drastically from yours, then. Astelan is clearly trying to convince Boreas that:

 

2. Luther was not a traitor;

 

Correction. He tried to convince him that Luther was a fool and incapable of anything. And therein lies the irony and the greatest delusion of Astelan IMHO.

The fact that there are chaos fallen proves Luthers consorting with chaos. Astelan was probably a petty fool who Luther corrupted by using his love for the emperors dream. And the fool didnt even realize.

White would be foolish to write 100 pages of lies, but the author is not an idiot. :D)))

Who is "White"?

 

 

I think he meant: While it would be foolish...the author....

[Reinen]

I think he meant: While it would be foolish...the author....

 

Yes.

[Reinen]

How was he wrong? The short story about Guilliman in the same collection shows him admitting that he will be thought of as a traitor for abandoning the Emperor and the Imperium.

 

 

be careful! :D

Guilliman is the creator of the Imperium 40k. This is his project.

If Guilliman traitor, then the whole Imperium corrupted.

This is a direct deduction from your thesis.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

he never said Guillieman was a traitor, Guillieman says, himself, that his actions could be taken as traitorous.

[Reinen]

Ok, i won't begin to wait for tomorrow.

---------------

 

 

Caliban was a corrupted planet at the beginning. After its annexation problems appeared at once - plots, clashes etc. Also the Nikaean Edict hadn't come into effect and, violating it, psyker Izraphael claimed himself as an agent of the Emperor.

When the revolt had started, there was a dialog between Luther and Izraphael. One of them is a Caliban separatist, another - the Emperor's Edict violator. Whom should Astelan have sided with?

Also it should be taken into consideration Astelan wasn't very clever.

He couldn't be neutral in such a situation.

Most of Caliban plots he didn't know. After some thoughts and reflections he chose Luther. But having choosed Izraphael Astelan would than have to trust a man who violated the Emperor's Edict. Who is loyal than?

The revolt moment is at the beginning of the Heresy. At this moment there're no united Imperium - there're no communications, it isn't even clear who is the ruler of Terra.

And if even Horus rules, than is here sense to be loyal to Terra?

All of these reflections would be enough for Astelan, being not very clever, to do what he did. And it was late for smth to be changed.

And yes, Astelan also didn't know of some dialogs being made mentally.

[Harleqvin]

The differences between AoD and the HH series is really that

 

1: AoD was meant to be confusing to the reader as to what is true or not. The time was during when they (GW) didn't want to much to be really known, especially about the DA, about the pasts of 40k, so they had it be very confusing as to it's validity. Also during a time where they didn't really care too much for continuity or group effort to make things mesh with all the authors. It being BL for books and GW for gaming aspects.

 

2: The HH series is a very tight nit series with a lot more of all the authors being told to mesh together a lot more and for there to be much more concise continuity between them. They are currently trying to make things a bit more cohesive all around in the newer books not just the HH series. and they seem to be trying to have a bit more cohesiveness to all 40k aspects, GW, BL, FW and even Fantasy Flight for the stuff they have been doing. Since they started the whole HH series they have been very pushy about how it all needs to be more together, more cohesive.

 

Point in case between the two of these points, Astalen was all about Lion being a traitor against the Emperor not Luther in "AoD" but he himself is ok with being with Luther when Luther says he is going to break away from and fight against the Emperor and his Imperium in "Fallen Angels".

Before the HH series his statements of Lion being a Traitor to the Emperor and the Imperium could be seen as possibly true. Now with the HH series out, his statements are shown as false and can be attributed that he is just trying to make more of the DA fall too.

 

Also it has been said by ADB, for them that All continuity is true and none of it is, so they can never really be shoe horned in to a specific thought if they want to change something. but that may have changed a bit since that statement was said by him.

 

Also just because a Chaos Power is pleased doesn't mean one has fallen or is about to fall. It may just be that something is going in a way to their liking. Khorne is always pleased when someone dies, most especially in battle. Does that make everyone in the 40k verse a follower of Khorne? Nope lol

 

Enough on that.

 

My thoughts:

Lion has never been a traitor or Fallen (Based off what I have read.). He has issues with knowing who to trust.

Luther was a traitor and Fallen (based off what I have read.) Had envy and jealousy issues towards Lion.

 

Edit - Also Izraphael* and the rest of the people on Caliban during "Fallen Angels" may not have known about the Nikean edict since they shut down communications sometime after arriving and don't state when they shut it down exactly, which could have been before the edict by the Emperor.

[Reinen]

...

 

Who said that Luther was not a traitor? I did not write about it. ^_^

Luther was a traitor, but Astelan did not realize it until he was caught by DA.

Many of the fallen ill understood what was going on Caliban. This was written in the Codex. Mutiny for them was useless. They got nothing, except big troubles.

[Harleqvin]

Lqtm. I was stating my thoughts about Lion and Luther based off of the OP.

 

Astelan though did have a choice presented to him and he went with Luther becoming a traitor though in Fallen Angels. Which is why I had said all I did about Fallen Angels (HH series,) and AoD. When it was all thrown down with the kitchen sink near the end of Fallen Angels he could have been " No, I follow the Emperor. Die traitor!" but didn't :)

 

Although one can agrue that there was no choice seeing how he was presented in AoD as being Fallen and they had to use him as one of those fallen with Luther when they wrote the HH series of books. Lol

[Reinen]

Astelan though did have a choice presented to him and he went with Luther becoming a traitor though in Fallen Angels. Which is why I had said all I did about Fallen Angels (HH series,) and AoD. When it was all thrown down with the kitchen sink near the end of Fallen Angels he could have been " No, I follow the Emperor. Die traitor!" but didn't :)

 

Astelan had a choice not between the Emperor and enemies of the Emperor. A choice was between Kaliban Luther's lawful (and mad ;)))) governor and any unclear psayker breaking Edict. The Emperor there wasn't. It was not known, whether the Emperor is live. Astronomikon then any more didn't work.

We know only what talking were heard by Zakhariel. That Astelan heard - isn't described in FA. Such view of things at least more or less explains disagreements in books.

Otherwise it is necessary to refuse at FA, after BL is going to continue a plot of AoD in new trilogy of Gav "Legacy of Kaliban".

In this book reaction of DA to the last letter of Boreas will be described.

 

Ah, yes ...

I'm not saying that being naive is good or that it excuses the rebellion. :))