The Lion did not betray the DA.

[Harleqvin]

yeah, it says he is terran. But he knows things (beasts, deamons etc) that the DA hid from the Empire, which if it knew, would kill the planet... before they rebelled.

 

Mike Lee writes him like a knight of Caliban.

If you are talking about the reaver worms on page 211, reaver worms are not only known on Calaban. They are on other worlds. Like Astelan's when he was a kid. Accept they didn't grow that big.

 

Edit- sorry MadDoc. Didn't see you had stated the same thing at the bottom of you comment. It looked all small like compared to the rest an I thought it was a signature. Lol. So my apologies. I was not purposely trying to double team up on this part =D

[Haranin]

Ok, I wasn't aware the worms were wide spread.

 

How about the Beasts? Luthor et all mention several times that if the imperial knew about them, Caliban would have been wiped out. But Astelan knows about them.

[Bryan Blaire]

Astelan != the Imperium though. If he was truly loyal, as he claimed in Angels of Darkness, he would have been running off to find a higher authority to tell the Imperium about the tainted nature of Caliban, rather than seeming to accept and go along with Luther's sorcerous powers (as it was known he wasn't a psyker before, so he had to gain the power from somewhere).

 

Astelan is a nutty bugger in AoD.

 

What I'd like to know is the nature of the conversations that the Lion has had with the Watchers, and possibly if they "tweaked" anything in the Lion, such as his psychic potential into a weapon against the nephillia.

[Harleqvin]

Ok, I wasn't aware the worms were wide spread.

 

How about the Beasts? Luthor et all mention several times that if the imperial knew about them, Caliban would have been wiped out. But Astelan knows about them.

 

What exact spots are you talking about?

[Harleqvin]

Also just a fast explanation without knowing the spots exactly that you are talking about because it may be right there and you may have read it wrong. People talk. That was a huge thing about the history of the order and how they had become knights. It would be very logical to think stories in ones orginization would be told to new people.

[Raven Angel]

Here's the deal, At this point Astelan is already bitter at being exiled and he believes the Lion has wronged him and his chapter in doing so. Now as a member of Luther's inner circle they are learning things about Caliban that quite frankly scare the hell out of some of them. On top of that they think the Lion knew all of this before he left Caliban. They don't know for sure because the Lion won't talk to any of them. On top of all of this the galaxy is going to hell in a hand basket and real info about whats going on is about as plentiful as clean air in car exhaust. Since the planet is loaded with pissed off DA that the Lion has sent back they naturally jump to the worst possible interpretation of the evidence or lack there of. After all the Lion never bothered to check in or tell them different. 50 years is a long time to not hear from the Boss.

[Reinen]

Saying that Astelan didnt have a choice in the matter IMHO is not accurate.

He had the option of blatantly refusing both of them and die a loyalist.

 

In the book the beginning of mutiny is an interesting scene.

There all at once quarrel and unclear up to the end, whether there are there in general Loyalists.

Astelan slowly thinks. Then Izrafael begins fight by the first.

That is, Aselan's mutiny began not because wanted in chaos (he directly refused Chaos in AofD) but because didn't show a due rationality and endurance.

So sometimes happens.

 

To die a loyalist?

It is possible to die, of course, but about whom then to write books? :P

 

P.S. Gav hid Astelan in a dungeon where this character can't be killed by other authors, and killed Nemiel in "The Lion". :P

[Haranin]

Ok, I wasn't aware the worms were wide spread.

 

How about the Beasts? Luthor et all mention several times that if the imperial knew about them, Caliban would have been wiped out. But Astelan knows about them.

 

What exact spots are you talking about?

 

I'll put it on the close retread list. Going to be a while as not much free reading time.

[Harleqvin]

Saying that Astelan didnt have a choice in the matter IMHO is not accurate.

He had the option of blatantly refusing both of them and die a loyalist.

 

In the book the beginning of mutiny is an interesting scene.

There all at once quarrel and unclear up to the end, whether there are there in general Loyalists.

Astelan slowly thinks. Then Izrafael begins fight by the first.

That is, Aselan's mutiny began not because wanted in chaos (he directly refused Chaos in AofD) but because didn't show a due rationality and endurance.

So sometimes happens.

 

To die a loyalist?

It is possible to die, of course, but about whom then to write books? :P

 

P.S. Gav hid Astelan in a dungeon where this character can't be killed by other authors, and killed Nemiel in "The Lion". :lol:

 

but he had a choice when Luther was denouncing the Emperor and Lion. He stayed by Luther. Then after Israfael was stricken down. Astelan is told to go arrest Morten and the rest. Before doing so he pauses for a second thinking. Then he continues following Luther. He had a choice, he hesitated, contemplating to not follow Luther there and decided to follow Luther.

 

So, yes when he did it, it was not out of following Chaos.

Instead it was being a traitor to the Emperor.

I don't think endurance was it as he had multiple choices and refused to side by the Emperor each time. Rationality may be part of it as it was suggested by Zahariel in his thoughts that it was due to years of obedience following Luther he sided with Luther but it was still he chose Luther over the Emperor & Lion.

[Reinen]

but he had a choice when Luther was denouncing the Emperor and Lion. He stayed by Luther.

 

He chose not between Luther and the Emperor. He chose between Luther and Izrafael.

Izravail himself was the formal traitor as broke Nike's Edict.

In Edict it was told that psayker it is enemies of Emperor.

Because of use of a psaykers burned Prospero and to see a psayker which says that it the representative of the Emperor very strange.

 

 

So, yes when he did it, it was not out of following Chaos.

Instead it was being a traitor to the Emperor.

 

Unfortunately, some actions of the Lion too are favorable to Chaos. Nurgle was happy.

Primarh took Tuchulcha.

So - a Lion too the traitor? :tu: Or he simply was mistaken? :)

Between these situations there is no big difference.

At the rebellious master and Primarh partly similar characters. This genetic similarity. :)

 

I don't think endurance was it as he had multiple choices and refused to side by the Emperor each time.

 

Hm...

And you read the "Angels of Darkness"? Not Lexicanum, and the book?

There it is written opposite.

When chaplain offered Astelyana to choose between the Emperor and own freedom, he chose the Emperor.

If it is necessary, i can quote.

Original Astelyan it's character of Torp, instead of Lee.

Lee wrote about another.

[Harleqvin]

I don't use wikis as source for truthful knowledge. I have read the books. I was stating from Fallen Angels. Which is exactly what happened. You must keep in mind that the events of AoD do not exactly add up. Astelan contradicts himself within AoD which someone already cited in previous posts. By the time of AoD Astelan has been around for a while and through the warp as many other Fallen have. They will say anything to make others question themselves and to make it easier on themselves from the chaplains and try to make themselves believe in what they are saying as some I them are remorseful and some want to believe what they did was right.

 

If we are to take what is said in AoD solely over anything else that has been presented of , which the stuff in Fallen Angels is showing the events at that time that are not twisted by the mind of a Fallen, we are to believe that Astelan knowingly shot at Lion because Lion may or may not have sided with Horus amongst all sorts of back pedaling answers given by Astelan to Boreas......

 

Also once agin just because someone in the 40k universe does something that pleases a chaos power doesn't mean twy are following that power or are turning to that power. Khorne is always pleased by the deaths of people, especially from combat. If we go by what you appear to be saying everyone in the 40kVerse is a follower of Khorne.... Which we all know isn't true.

 

Please keep in mind that the stories Astelan gives and the answers he gives is due to an interrogation by an InterroGator-Chaplain. And the story was made at a time when they were purposely leaving things confusing so people didn't know what the truth was. As they were at the time trying to keep a lot of the DA past secret/confusing so it remained mysterious.

 

There is a further back post on this thread by me explaining all of this and it's a pain in the pooper to go back through and quote it while on an iPhone.

 

The edict wasn't even known then to them. And even if they, GW, decide to have it be that they do know that, Why did he side with an obvious madman who had no psychic ability before and all of a sudden could block a high level Librarians attack with psychic power and then strike back with a psychic power. let alone the fact that Astelan was running around with a librarian the whole flipping time in Fallen Angels?

 

 

Please go back an read all the posts on this thread. There are several stating all this info and mot just by me. Which is in the books. The only thing in previous posts I had misposted was I said communication was cut, when it was all ships an stuff had started to be not allowed to leave and whatnot that had actually happened.

[Reinen]

I don't use wikis as source for truthful knowledge. I have read the books. I was stating from Fallen Angels. Which is exactly what happened. You must keep in mind that the events of AoD do not exactly add up. Astelan contradicts himself within AoD which someone already cited in previous posts. By the time of AoD Astelan has been around for a while and through the warp as many other Fallen have. They will say anything to make others question themselves and to make it easier on themselves from the chaplains and try to make themselves believe in what they are saying as some I them are remorseful and some want to believe what they did was right.

 

If we are to take what is said in AoD solely over anything else that has been presented of , which the stuff in Fallen Angels is showing the events at that time that are not twisted by the mind of a Fallen, we are to believe that Astelan knowingly shot at Lion because Lion may or may not have sided with Horus amongst all sorts of back pedaling answers given by Astelan to Boreas......

 

Originally book about Astelan is "Angels of Darkness". It not the character contradicts to itself, it is BL didn't coordinate different plots.

It is not necessary to look for sense where it isn't present. But also to simplify characters too it is not necessary.

Not in volume put that Astelan is right, and DA is traitors.

It is nonsense. The matter is that an award broke up because of many mistakes of different characters. DA is the unique chapter. Any primarch wasn't killed by his space marines and his governor.

 

heh!

Who here spoke, as if I don't know back? :)

It is the quote which concerns interesting aspects of character of the Lion. Thus Primarch reacted to a mention of authority of the Emperor.

 

"The Lion", Gav Thorpe, 2012

 

 

To unleash further sorcery will endanger us even more. Think again, my liege!’

‘I have issued an order, Brother-Redemptor,’ said the Lion, drawing himself up to his full height.

‘One that I cannot follow,’ said Nemiel, his tone hard, though Corswain could see the Chaplain’s hands were trembling with the effort of defying his primarch.

‘My authority is absolute,’ the Lion said, clenching his fists, his lips drawn back to reveal gleaming teeth.

‘The Edict of Nikaea was issued by the Emperor, my liege,’ said Nemiel. ‘There is no higher authority.’

‘Enough!’ The Lion’s roar was so loud it caused Corswain’s auto-senses to dampen his hearing, as they would if he was caught in a potentially deafening detonation.

 

 

 

Lion put his aurhority above the authority of the Emperor.

Whether but it means, what the Lion was in Chaos?

I so don't think.

 

Also once agin just because someone in the 40k universe does something that pleases a chaos power doesn't mean twy are following that power or are turning to that power. Khorne is always pleased by the deaths of people, especially from combat. If we go by what you appear to be saying everyone in the 40kVerse is a follower of Khorne.... Which we all know isn't true.

 

Yes.

 

I want to tell that characters of DA-back it is more interesting and more difficult, than it seems at first sight.

And not always share on very good loyalists and very bad traitors. In a proitvny case of the book it would be not interesting to read.

 

 

Please keep in mind that the stories Astelan gives and the answers he gives is due to an interrogation by an InterroGator-Chaplain. And the story was made at a time when they were purposely leaving things confusing so people didn't know what the truth was. As they were at the time trying to keep a lot of the DA past secret/confusing so it remained mysterious.

 

Astelyan got confused. He doesn't want in Chaos, but also the correct dark angel isn't. He doesn't think that he is a traitor, but it shot on brothers. In his words there is something correct, but that it did in practice, became either to mutinies, or dictatorship, or an ecological disaster. A half of the book tells about it. The second half is written about Boreas and its doubt and his self-sacrifice. Perhaps, Boreas it too traitor? I so don't think.

 

let alone the fact that Astelan was running around with a librarian the whole flipping time in Fallen Angels?

 

Really, because the author (Lee) forgot about Edict, and BL didn't check this. Now it is necessary to think out explanations of this incongruity.

[Harleqvin]

The events that are known to be true during the pre/heresy era are in Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels and the rest of the HH series, yes "the lion" is in that series. During these times the events of Nikea are not known to the people of Caliban in Fallen Angels up to Chapter 20, after chapter 20 after Zahariel awakens which is like 8months or so after the events Of the demon thing, they find out that Horus has declared war against the Emperor at this time it is safe to acknowledge they know the nikean edict has happened but don't care two cowpies anymore.

 

Those on Caliban at that time (before Zahariel awakens,)who are librarians, which includes Zahariel and Israfael, are not in violation of the edict of Nikea as it isn't known to them nor does it state that it has explicitly happened yet to even be known for them. In The Lion those events happen at a time when they know, and this mention of "they" is meaning Lion and company, not the people of Caliban. Somewhere within the events of Fallen Angels the council of Nikea happens. This is not known to the people of Caliban during the events up to chapter 20 and a little bit further at least, untill after Zahariel awakes. Durin the time before Zahariel is "killed", in chapter 18 is when all the crap goes down dealing with Astelan siding against the Emperor and going with Luther, in which Luther is says We are breaking away from the Emperor and his Imperium. if Astelan is really for the Emperor like how he said in AoD then why did he side with Luther, after Luther declared that he was breaking Away from the Imperium and the Emperor? Which would be not siding with the Emperor....

 

Also the councils of Nikea happens around the 200th year of the great crusade. Which is also during the events of Fallen Angels. The exact timing of these two events isn't explicitly stated just a round about of "during the 200th year of the great crusade" So there is a time differnce that happens between the two events that isnt stated but they eventually come to parallel wih each other.

 

And for the BL got messed up part they have been very explicit on making all these books with in the HH series mesh together correctly. ADB has even stated this on his blog dealing with canon as he says they have been a heck of a lot more about making this series mesh together right. Which I have also already stated in a previous comment on this thread.

[Reinen]

Those on Caliban at that time (before Zahariel awakens,)who are librarians, which includes Zahariel and Israfael, are not in violation of the edict of Nikea as it isn't known to them nor does it state that it has explicitly happened yet to even be known for them.

 

Edict it was published before heresy. Then communication worked. All knew about it, including Lion (in "The Lion"), however, on Caliban Edict broke.

Why? It is a question to the author.

 

In the book there is a contradiction. It is possible to think up to it though any explanation, or to agree - yes, there is bug. For example, ultramarines knew about Edict and observed its (in "Know no fear"), even if it threatened them with death.

[Harleqvin]

I already stated everything that proves what I am saying. I even gave examples. I am no longer going to speak to someone who refuses to listen. You can believe what ever you want too. I grow tired of talking to a brick.

[Reinen]

Also the councils of Nikea happens around the 200th year of the great crusade. Which is also during the events of Fallen Angels. The exact timing of these two events isn't explicitly stated just a round about of "during the 200th year of the great crusade" So there is a time differnce that happens between the two events that isnt stated but they eventually come to parallel wih each other.

 

In these books a problem with dating of events. Because according to "the Lion" mutiny began during heresy when the Lion battled againts Nights Lords. To the Lion (through warp?) comes small xenos and tells about rebellion.

 

I already stated everything that proves what I am saying. I even gave examples. I am no longer going to speak to someone who refuses to listen. You can believe what ever you want too. I grow tired of talking to a brick.

 

:)

 

Ok!

 

P.S. Enter in Ordo Ereticus. :)

 

I found the interesting quote. This is a quote from Marc Gascoigne in message of Dead.Blue.Clown (Aaron Dembski-Bouden):

 

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Link http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpo...mp;postcount=22

There the big message which can interest those who thinks that exists true back.

 

After this, I finish debate.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Just an OT: there´s an edit function that let's you guys alter the posts and add more contente instead of opening post after post. :)

[Haranin]

On the librarians and council of nikea ( on iPad) the warp messed up the message receipt. :)

 

Ok it's a 40 k trope overused... But it works.

[Bryan Blaire]

Wait a second... Someone wants everyone to believe the following: the Nikean Edict was made forbidding the use of psychic powers (which required the shut down of the Librariums) and then also wants us to accept that communication between planets worked perfectly and everyone in the known human empire knows instantly (or at least very quickly - ie, within the same year of the Nikean Edict) of this. We have been shown in the Heresy series itself (Outcast Dead) specifically that this communication almost never works perfectly because it is not communication done in specific words but rather symbols and metaphors and we have been shown that it can take some time for the messages to be properly distributed on by astropathic choirs -

even ADB's cunning destruction of an entire sector's astropathic choir linkage by the Night Lords took some time, it wasn't instantaneous

. It is also requested that we believe that usage of psychic powers after the declaration of the Nikean Edict is as much an indication of being a traitor as specific knowledge of rebellion against the Imperium of Man, when the requester has stated that communication worked when the form of communication itself is psychic in nature! In that case, the Emperor himself is a traitor, because he's the guy that would have to make sure that his Edict was sent out, even of just by verbally telling someone else to do it. The reason for my statement: both astropathic choirs and Warp-traveling ships require the use of psychics to occur!

 

Unless you are willing to state that every astropathic choir member, every ship's captain and Navigator, and the Emperor himself are all traitors for even considering usage of psychic power after the Edict of Nikea, then the point that Astelan chose Luther over Israfael because Israfael used his psychic abilities is a self-deception intended to keep a person from acknowledging that Astelan was a balls-out traitor to the Emperor and the Imperium of Man.

 

Oh and Warp travel via ship is never reliable - there may not have even been time for a ship to get to Caliban with word about the Nikean Edict before the events in Fallen Angels, but even if a ship did arrive, the Navigator and Captain would be just as much traitors as Israfael for deigning to use psychic power to get their ship there.

 

I hope this puts that particular silly defense of Astelan to rest.

[Reinen]

...

 

Sorry, it is already speculative reasonings.

Edict forbade a psaykers (not navigators). All claims address to the Emperor. ;)

 

I hope this puts that particular silly defense of Astelan to rest.

 

I don't protect Astelyan, I analyse books in all completeness, instead of is selective. To hate invented characters it is naive, literary analysis it not that war.

[Bryan Blaire]

Eh, I had to look up the Edict again, it specifically sets aside Astropaths and Navigators anyway. Regardless, my points about the timing and unreliability still stand.

 

Astelan is a traitor. This is the complete view of the series. Any discussion further is a defense of the character.

[Brother Immolator]

Luthor had psychic powers during the fight and was augmented by chaos else he could not have almost best a primarch. Thats something Astelan had not known or taken into account. Even if he indeed pressed the button for defense batteries he was manipulated in doing so. If anything Astelan is a tragic poor man drown in his delusions.

 

Astelan was in the fight against Israfael near the end of Fallen Angels. Where Luther used Sorcery to defend against and attack Israfael. So he did know about Luther's Psyker abilities.

 

What i meant was that he didnt know prior to be manipulated and loose himself as Maddoc puts it into his self-denial/delusions.

When he discovered it was too little too late. He even doesnt seem (In AOD) to even comprehend what that meant (that Luthor used sorcery).

 

EDIT:

 

Harleqvin

Also once agin just because someone in the 40k universe does something that pleases a chaos power doesn't mean twy are following that power or are turning to that power. Khorne is always pleased by the deaths of people, especially from combat. If we go by what you appear to be saying everyone in the 40kVerse is a follower of Khorne.... Which we all know isn't true.

 

 

Reinen

Yes

 

I wonder why Khorne hasnt destroyed the galaxy yet then? Or Why Nergule is not the post powerful of them and rotten the galaxy away since everything dies.

OR why then since the galaxy worships them they put up with the emperor?

 

Simply because they need actual worship and not undirected actions. Yes a back-stab will please Tzeench. A whole slaughter will please khorne.

But if the slaughter is made by non dedicated champions or in a ritual scale (ie collecting the skulls and offering them to khorne) aside from pleasing him it bears no actual context to his power. Everybody could have become a champion otherwise. From a great warrior to a farmhand that simply beheaded his co-workers because he was schizo.

 

Also the on the issue of the primacrchs defying the emperor, was there one of them that didnt? All of them demanded blind loyalty to them. Most chapters say: For (insert primarch/chapter) and emperor. Is it coincidence that the emperor is put second? Me thinks no.

 

Astelyan got confused. He doesn't want in Chaos, but also the correct dark angel isn't. He doesn't think that he is a traitor, but it shot on brothers. In his words there is something correct, but that it did in practice, became either to mutinies, or dictatorship, or an ecological disaster. A half of the book tells about it. The second half is written about Boreas and its doubt and his self-sacrifice. Perhaps, Boreas it too traitor? I so don't think.

 

Confused/manipulated/used/discarded: CHAOS. He might not have done it willingly but his strings were pulled. And that means he was weak minded and not entirely loyal. To (almost) quote on the entry for Luthers betrayal from the codex: 'His pride and conceit were all that the chaos gods need to make him his own. He projected his resentment to those around him.'

All it takes for chaos is a crack in your armor of loyalty. You dont have to be even aware of it. Astelan certainly wasnt but he made his choice non the less.

I dont say he was a space marine merely a tool to be used and discarded. Perhaps his paranoia was his reward from the chaos gods (my own speculation and not based on written material just some brainstorming)

 

As to Boreas: Yes he was a traitor to the chapter despite his sacrifice. Did he not believe the words of a traitor in the end? Did he not send a message to him that he was right? Did he not accept that the DA had 'fallen' themselves? What would have happened if he miraculously survived and Saphon got his hands on him?

[Reinen]

Luthor had psychic powers during the fight and was augmented by chaos else he could not have almost best a primarch. Thats something Astelan had not known or taken into account. Even if he indeed pressed the button for defense batteries he was manipulated in doing so. If anything Astelan is a tragic poor man drown in his delusions.

 

Astelan was in the fight against Israfael near the end of Fallen Angels. Where Luther used Sorcery to defend against and attack Israfael. So he did know about Luther's Psyker abilities.

 

What i meant was that he didnt know prior to be manipulated and loose himself as Maddoc puts it into his self-denial/delusions.

When he discovered it was too little too late. He even doesnt seem (In AOD) to even comprehend what that meant (that Luthor used sorcery).

 

 

Yes.

I didn't say that Astelan is right. I said that he is not cunning chaosit, and the bungler-rebel.

 

Astelan is a traitor. This is the complete view of the series. Any discussion further is a defense of the character.

 

Hm...

Then Boreas which was written to Astelyan "You were not wrong" is too the traitor? And if with the farewell letter of Boreas will agree some other DA - they too will be traitors? (in "Legacy of Caliban" trilogy)

Something is a bit too much at us traitors... ;)

Joke.

 

and if it is serious...

Series books not about Astelan. They about tragic split of a legion.

 

I wonder why Khorne hasnt destroyed the galaxy yet then? Or Why Nergule is not the post powerful of them and rotten the galaxy away since everything dies.

OR why then since the galaxy worships them they put up with the emperor?

 

That the history proceeded. :)

The literary plot is always based on some restrictions.

If in the world it is possible to do EVERYTHING, on it not to construct an intrigue.

 

 

Confused/manipulated/used/discarded: CHAOS.

 

Yes, chaos.

But something similar happened with Primarсh. It too is sad, confused, angered and is going to be at war against the loyal brother (Guilliman). And Nurgle rejoices.

Lion is chaosit?

Meaningly to choose service to chaos and to be the deceived chaos are different roles in a plot.

[Cypher 102]

I'm pretty sure the Edict of Nikaea only applied to the Astartes. The rest of the Imperium could use psykers as they had before.

[Bryan Blaire]

The Dark Angels have always had their own agenda, which they do put before the designs, machinations and manipulations of the High Lords of Terra. In this respect, they are not loyal. However, they consider their honor damaged by the Fallen and feel that revelation of this would not only damn them, but also damage the Imperium itself, so by pursuing this agenda, it seems they feel they are still loyal to the Emperor.

 

Boreas could very well become a traitor, but a traitor to what? The Dark Angels themselves? Did Boreas become Fallen for agreeing with Astelan? I don't think so personally, because even a broken traitorous click like Astelan is right twice a day.

 

Within the entirety of the series, Astelan is a traitor. This is the extent of that character within the series. So yes, this is the complete view of the series: Astelan is a traitor.