The Lion did not betray the DA.

[Brother Immolator]

To be honest i doubt the primarch will do anything against the UM primarch. He might see him as a fool and borderline traitor but wont act against him unless he waves a chaos/secession banner, which OFC we know he wont, thereby no war.

 

Also The Lion might have done an action that pleased Nergule but when faced with the option of betrayal or loyalty he chose loyalty. Almost died at the hands of his enemy and the rest is history.

 

Astelan on the other hand, sided with a chaos worshiper without knowing it at first but then his ego has become bigger than himself to the point of obscuring facts to himself (ie Luther been a chaos psychic).

 

So it is my opinion that you cannot compare them. Also you cannot compare the mind of a space marine and primarch. Their thought process are on a different plane of existence. More so for the Lion.

[Reinen]

The Dark Angels have always had their own agenda, which they do put before the designs, machinations and manipulations of the High Lords of Terra. In this respect, they are not loyal. However, they consider their honor damaged by the Fallen and feel that revelation of this would not only damn them, but also damage the Imperium itself, so by pursuing this agenda, it seems they feel they are still loyal to the Emperor.

 

Boreas could very well become a traitor, but a traitor to what? The Dark Angels themselves? Did Boreas become Fallen for agreeing with Astelan? I don't think so personally, because even a broken traitorous click like Astelan is right twice a day.

 

Within the entirety of the series, Astelan is a traitor. This is the extent of that character within the series. So yes, this is the complete view of the series: Astelan is a traitor.

 

 

Here such conclusions just also acquit Astelan against the will of written them. ;)))

Discussion on a subject "Lion/Astelan is the the traitor" (the answer is obvious) forced out other, more interesting discussion "That is more important, hunting on fallen or service to mankind".

Sometimes it is necessary to choose between these two purposes. Appointment of Astartes this service to mankind. The traitor the one who it denies, wasn't it? :) As soon as legions to pursue the personal aims, began HH.

 

By the way, inquisition repeatedly suspected our Chapter of heresy because of the expected agenda.

It occurred too because of Astelan? I doubt that this bungler possesses such possibilities. ;)

 

Boreas could very well become a traitor, but a traitor to what? The Dark Angels themselves? Did Boreas become Fallen for agreeing with Astelan? I don't think so personally, because even a broken traitorous click like Astelan is right twice a day.

 

About Boreas. It accurately described to an owl conclusions at the end of the book.

 

 

'For ten thousand years we have sought redemption. We have pursued that which shamed our brethren when our time of triumph was at hand. It was a grave, unforgivable sin, which must be atoned for. That is beyond doubt. But these last days, an even greater sin has come to light. It is the sin of ignorance. It is the sin of past errors repeated.

I ask myself what it means to be one of the Dark Angels. Is it to hunt the Fallen, chasing shadows through the dark places of the galaxy? Is it to pursue our quest at any expense, foregoing all other oaths and duties? Is it to lie, to hide and to plot so that others will never know of our shame? Is it to keep our own brethren unacquainted with the truth of our past, the legacy we all share in? Or is it to be a Space Marine? Is it to follow the path laid down by the Emperor and Lion El'Jonson at the founding of this great Imperium of Man? To protect mankind, to purge the alien, cleanse the unclean?

We must act as a shining brand in the night, to lead the way for others to follow. We are the warriors of the Emperor, guardians of mankind. Roboute Guilliman called us bright stars in the firmament of battle, untouched by self-aggrandisement. Yet we, the Dark Angels, commit the supreme sin. We put ourselves before our duty. We have buried our traditions, masked our real history in legend and mysticism to confound others. We are not bright stars, we are an empty blackness, a passing shadow that serves nothing but its own purpose.'

 

 

'Included in this log is a complete account of the disaster that has befallen Piscina and us. For this, I take sole responsibility. Our enemies know us too well. We have become an anathema to ourselves, as this plot of the Fallen demonstrates. Everything that has transpired has led us to this place and time, and there is nothing left but to do what we must. Ten thousand years ago, our soul was split. We tell ourselves that the two halves of us are the light and the dark. I have learnt a bitter lesson, that it is not true. It is a comforting lie, which keeps us safe from doubt, so that we do not ask the questions whose answers we fear. There is no light and dark, only the shades of twilight in between.

 

Solve itself, whether the traitor was Boreas and whom he betrayed. :)

[Reinen]

To be honest i doubt the primarch will do anything against the UM primarch. He might see him as a fool and borderline traitor but wont act against him unless he waves a chaos/secession banner, which OFC we know he wont, thereby no war.

 

Also The Lion might have done an action that pleased Nergule but when faced with the option of betrayal or loyalty he chose loyalty. Almost died at the hands of his enemy and the rest is history.

 

1. To stories it is written that the Lion lives with a certain guilt. With enormous guilt with which it is very difficult to live. What for quilt? It is loyal at the moment of story action, but in its past there is any event which strongly affected it. It is one of yet not opened secrets of a plot.

 

2. imho -- he won't battle against Guilliman, because these events aren't present in the codex.

 

Astelan on the other hand, sided with a chaos worshiper without knowing it at first but then his ego has become bigger than himself to the point of obscuring facts to himself (ie Luther been a chaos psychic).

So it is my opinion that you cannot compare them. Also you cannot compare the mind of a space marine and primarch. Their thought process are on a different plane of existence. More so for the Lion.

 

Any comparisons are relative.

 

But in the story there is one more interesting moment. Lion foreknew that on Caliban mutiny began. That is, Astelan's orbital attack won't be for it unexpected.

Why then the Lion was lost? Why he with big forces and fleet couldn't win Luther's rebels whom was less? Luther wasn't even a space marine.

Death of primarch from hands of the human it is very strange.

 

I hope, sometime there will be a book which would explain these things.

[Bryan Blaire]

I see where we disagree. The Space Marines are not "in service to Mankind" as in placing the lives of humans above their own agendas, etc. I think that's been made pretty clear in many of the Black Library books. Even in the game lore, the Space Marines stand apart. They are not made to understand the agendas of humans, they are made to understand their agenda, and that agenda is war. Case in point, the Salamanders are an oddity in that they truly care about defending humans and change tactics specifically to prevent human loss. They are the odd man out to other Chapters, even the Ultramarines (who may create "good" worlds but don't specifically care about individual persons), which shows that the general view is one of a lack of caring for humanity.

 

Personally, I think the Dark Angels are actually trying to support humankind in their own way, but it actually isn't the Imperial method of doing so. I don't think they are as slavishly devoted to the Imperium as say the Black Templars (who, BTW, are also shown to not care about changing their tactics in battle to defend humans either), but instead are following guidance from the Watchers in the Dark as part if the Cabal, who supposedly have the wider view of preventing Chaos for the entire galaxy, which benefits humans but isnt human-centric. Don't have any evidence of this yet, but I'm hoping that's where it is going.

[Reinen]

I see where we disagree. The Space Marines are not "in service to Mankind" as in placing the lives of humans above their own agendas, etc. I think that's been made pretty clear in many of the Black Library books. Even in the game lore, the Space Marines stand apart. They are not made to understand the agendas of humans, they are made to understand their agenda, and that agenda is war. Case in point, the Salamanders are an oddity in that they truly care about defending humans and change tactics specifically to prevent human loss. They are the odd man out to other Chapters, even the Ultramarines (who may create "good" worlds but don't specifically care about individual persons), which shows that the general view is one of a lack of caring for humanity.

Personally, I think the Dark Angels are actually trying to support humankind in their own way, but it actually isn't the Imperial method of doing so. I don't think they are as slavishly devoted to the Imperium as say the Black Templars (who, BTW, are also shown to not care about changing their tactics in battle to defend humans either), but instead are following guidance from the Watchers in the Dark as part if the Cabal, who supposedly have the wider view of preventing Chaos for the entire galaxy, which benefits humans but isnt human-centric. Don't have any evidence of this yet, but I'm hoping that's where it is going.

 

Aha, here it is more constructive discussion. That is, the question is discussed: what purpose of creation of space marines. I will answer later if you do not object. In brief, the doctrine 30k and 40k differs.

[Raven Angel]

"They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines

and they shall know no fear."

 

 

Well that would be the Emperors opinion on it. Personal I think he intended them to fight the battles no one else could. However since the end of the HH things like the decline of tech and the breaking of the Legions have hamstrung their ability to do so. During the Crusade they where the Hammer of the Imperium, and where irt fell no enemy survived. To day that is just not the case. In a was it is a sad fact that in most cases SM no longer think of themselves as expendable to achieve the goal and so they hold back.

[Reinen]

'What is it to be a Space Marine?'

'It is to be pure, to be strong, to show no pity, nor mercy, nor remorse!'

'What is it to be pure?'

'To never know fear, to never waver in the fight!'

'What is it to be strong?'

'To fight on when others flee; to stand and die in the knowledge that death brings ultimate reward!'

'What is the ultimate reward?'

'To serve the Emperor!'

'Who do we serve?'

'We serve the Emperor and the Lion, and through them we serve mankind!'

'What is it to be Dark Angels?'

'It is to be the first, the honoured, the sons of the Lion!

 

 

In "the Lion" ending Lion was going to defend a throne of the Emperor even at the price of legion loss. It for it is more important, than personal ambitions and rebels on Caliban. Here it also proves purity of its intentions and an inaccuracy of suspicions about its treachery. It, instead of reasonings about Astelyan's morals. :wacko:)

 

Though, I am afraid, tachulcha nevertheless will strongly damage to the Lion.

[Bryan Blaire]

Personally, I think this set of lines from "The Dark Knight" (yes, it's Batman, but I think it applies to the Dark Angels) is not only some of the best Batman dialog ever, but embodies how I see the Dark Angels:

 

First Grandmaster: The Joker Chaos took the best of us and tore him the Legion down. People will lose hope.

 

The Lion: They won't. They must never know what he the Legion did.

 

"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." I We can do those things, because I'm we're not a heroes, not like Dent the Imperial Fists or Salamanders. I Our Legion killed those people, that's what I we can be.

 

I'm We're whatever Gotham the Imperium needs me us to be.

 

Because sometimes... the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more. Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded.

 

Because he's we're the heroes Gotham the Imperium deserves, but not the ones it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him them, because he we can take do it. Because he's we're not our the heroes. He's a We're the silent guardians. A The watchful protectors. A The Dark Knights.

[Brother Immolator]

Any comparisons are relative.

 

But in the story there is one more interesting moment. Lion foreknew that on Caliban mutiny began. That is, Astelan's orbital attack won't be for it unexpected.

Why then the Lion was lost? Why he with big forces and fleet couldn't win Luther's rebels whom was less? Luther wasn't even a space marine.

Death of primarch from hands of the human it is very strange.

 

I hope, sometime there will be a book which would explain these things.

 

Luther might not have been a space marine but it is clear that he was enhanced to primarch levels by the 'gifts' of the chaos gods. He was to become the second Horus as i interpent it. Hence why he fought in equal levels and was able to almost kill the Lion. That is clearly stated in all codices i have read.

 

The emperor was also akin to a chaos god in power yet after Horus a primarch, received the 'blessings' of the dark gods was able to stand toe to toe with him and mortally wound him.

It is clear that the champions of chaos can be on the high end of the power scale.

 

Also there is nothing to explain in concern with the attack. The vessels that most likely got struck by the orbital defenses were scout vessels send to monitor the situation, braking an orbital conundrum especially one designed by himself (probably without weaknesses) is not an easy feat.

 

I clearly believe that most of the above facts are more or less that. Facts cast in stone. There are minor details for speculation but are not important to the rest of the mythos.

 

2. imho -- he won't battle against Guilliman, because these events aren't present in the codex.

 

Irrelevant if i may say so. The battle(s) with the nightlords had not been in the 4th edition codex but were a known fact. We were merely informed that he was delayed.

Battling a loyalist legion during the HH would be madness. The loyalists were outnumbered badly enough and the Lion needed to go to the siege with all haste despite Guillimans...musings.

 

 

In "the Lion" ending Lion was going to defend a throne of the Emperor even at the price of legion loss. It for it is more important, than personal ambitions and rebels on Caliban. Here it also proves purity of its intentions and an inaccuracy of suspicions about its treachery. It, instead of reasonings about Astelyan's morals. :D)

 

And herein lies the proof that the Lion was totally Loyal and Incorruptible by the chaos gods. And the explanation of the gamble they took by empowering Luther.

Also his vindication for his actions regarding the Nikea edict. He was fully aware of the powers he was tampering with and sure he could control them. Even the event that he even got 'scared' so to say by them, his will, resolve and loyalty to the golden throne were adamant. And by blowing up Calliban he sort off sacrificed (at least in part) the legion in to stop the cancer from spreading.

[Reinen]

Irrelevant if i may say so. The battle(s) with the nightlords had not been in the 4th edition codex but were a known fact. We were merely informed that he was delayed.

Battling a loyalist legion during the HH would be madness. The loyalists were outnumbered badly enough and the Lion needed to go to the siege with all haste despite Guillimans...musings.

 

Lion believed a loyal legion only Dark Angels. He didn't trust in total to others Legions. These motives of total mistrust are well described in the novell. In it there were no personal ambitions, but there was really big mistrust.

In its intentions was are obvious. From his point of view between Guilliman and Horus there is no difference.

 

Why they weren't carried out, it is other matter.

 

 

Monologue of Lion:

 

‘Guilliman is a misguided fool at best, and a traitorous dog at worst.’ He took a deep breath. ‘I know that, but I would no sooner bend my knee to him than to Horus. Curze has the truth of it, but I was blinded by my anger. It has fallen to me to be the scale upon which history will be balanced. Every event has its counter, every brother his equal. Curze seeks to sap my morale and the strength of my Legion with unending war. Such shall be the duty of the Dark Angels. Yes, they will be ready for the task. There will be no new Emperor, only a lifetime of war. My brothers will bleed each other dry, contesting for eternity until there can be no victor. No, not even him. There is only the Emperor, none is worthy of inheriting that mantle. I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutual annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master.’

 

It is quite terrible scene.

[Brother Immolator]

As i interpent it

he thinks about the war with Cruze and seems to (correctly) guess Guillimans motives as wanting to usurp the throne should the emperor go for permanent vacation. Not betraying them outright (though he weights the possibility).

 

There is nothing speaking with open war precisely with Guilliman currently. Guilliman has not shown his true colours yet. If he is a traitor he will be dealt with now. If he is a fool (and thus act as he did) he will deal with him and every other usurper after he saves the emperor.

 

 

On the contrary it is quite an awesome scene depicting the thoughts of the Lion as they should be IMHO.

[Reinen]

As i interpent it

...

 

These theses were answered already by the story.

 

epigraph:

‘There is but one reason and one reason alone in the exercise of power: to further one’s agenda. Be it selfish or altruistic, such agenda should be the whole of one’s concern without distraction if power is to be expended to its benefit. One need only look to the example of the Emperor’s Great Crusade for proof of this eternal truth; when distraction came it was to the ruin of all.’

– Lyaedes, Intermissions, M31

 

Last words of primarch:

 

 

‘No, it is too important,’ said the primarch. ‘Even if what you say is true, I cannot return to Caliban yet. Come what may, I have to stop Horus and Guilliman.’

The small figure bowed its head, and the Lion did the same, his whisper full of sorrow.

‘Yes, even if it costs me my Legion.’

 

 

 

 

It is known that happened as a result.

He was killed. :D

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Personally, I think this set of lines from "The Dark Knight" (yes, it's Batman, but I think it applies to the Dark Angels) is not only some of the best Batman dialog ever, but embodies how I see the Dark Angels:

 

First Grandmaster: The Joker Chaos took the best of us and tore him the Legion down. People will lose hope.

 

The Lion: They won't. They must never know what he the Legion did.

 

"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." I We can do those things, because I'm we're not a heroes, not like Dent the Imperial Fists or Salamanders. I Our Legion killed those people, that's what I we can be.

 

I'm We're whatever Gotham the Imperium needs me us to be.

 

Because sometimes... the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more. Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded.

 

Because he's we're the heroes Gotham the Imperium deserves, but not the ones it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him them, because he we can take do it. Because he's we're not our the heroes. He's a We're the silent guardians. A The watchful protectors. A The Dark Knights.

 

I actually quite like this interpretation to be honest. I think it does sum up our attitude.

[Marshal Rohr]

No. No, it doesn't. Not in the slightest. It doesn't even come close to describing the Dark Angels attitude.

 

Their attitude towards the Fallen is like a child hiding the mess from a broken vase under a piece of furniture and not telling anyone what happened to it. If they truly were selflessly willing to confront the issue, despite what people might say, they would have stood up and told the Imperium there were more traitors out there, and the Dark Angels were going after them. Show the Imperium the Dark Angels were loyal no matter what.

 

Instead they decided to cut ties, become insular and isolationist, detach themselves from the span of control of the Imperium and just fight when, where, and why they want to.

 

Hardly the selfless heroes.

 

 

And before any single one of you attempts to accuse me of hate, I like the Dark Angels, so dont even try it. They are not selfless, noble, or good, they simply are what they are.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

No. No, it doesn't. Not in the slightest. It doesn't even come close to describing the Dark Angels attitude.

 

Their attitude towards the Fallen is like a child hiding the mess from a broken vase under a piece of furniture and not telling anyone what happened to it. If they truly were selflessly willing to confront the issue, despite what people might say, they would have stood up and told the Imperium there were more traitors out there, and the Dark Angels were going after them. Show the Imperium the Dark Angels were loyal no matter what.

 

Instead they decided to cut ties, become insular and isolationist, detach themselves from the span of control of the Imperium and just fight when, where, and why they want to.

 

Hardly the selfless heroes.

 

 

And before any single one of you attempts to accuse me of hate, I like the Dark Angels, so dont even try it. They are not selfless, noble, or good, they simply are what they are.

 

I agree with this, mostly.

 

The truth is much deeper than that, as I said earlier. It stems from their honour. The shame is more than 'oh, there are more traitors'. It is 'Dark Angels are traitors. Out of all the loyal legions, only the Dark Angels lost their homeworlds, and, not to the Great Enemy, but to their own brothers.

 

Imagine, you have just waged a brutal war across a city with your cousins because your Uncles turned on your Grandfather, a Grandfather you love and whom your Father loves. Your Uncle, the favored one, leads this rebellion, this treachery, some of your cousins and Uncles are on your side, though, however, you arrive too late to the house of your Grandfather where your Uncles and cousins have slain him, and one of your Uncles. This leaves your Father devastated, broken because he, and you, were too late. Understandably this would destroy someone. Think the recent Spider man movie when Ben dies because he did nothing. That kind of 'its my fault' however, unlike Peter, you head home, in despair, hoping for comfort, to rest, to eat a meal and relax in front of the TV, for at least a few hours. When you get there, its quiet, your other brothers are not there to welcome you, its empty. Suddenly, they start shooting and your brothers are dying. Killed not by the rebel cousins but by your closest kin. Your brothers are killing you. Its a replay of the rebellion except its at your house against your own Father. The Father you love by the brothers you love. Not only does this happen, but the entire house is destroyed, your home is gone and you Father disappeared, or worse: dead. with only the first son, the son treated as a brother of your Father left. The one you all held dear who led this. How would you feel? Out of all the families, only you suffer rebellion, out of all the loyalists it is the DA that suffer the destruction of their house. Not the Ultras, not the Blood Angels (Baal is fine). Not the Iron Hands. But your Legion. yes, losing Lion was not a unique factor, but losing your home to your own brothers....

 

Now, im not accusing you of hate, but trying to put this into perspective, to get people to feel the real emotional trauma. For the DA it is even worse. Why? Because of their Feudal origins. Their role is to protect and serve the Lion, in turn his role is to protect and serve the Emperor. NOT the Imperium, but the Emperor (Feudal relationship). Yet they failed not only once, not twice but three times. They failed their people who served them (Calibanites), their Father and Liege-Lord (Jonson) and his liege-lord, the Emperor. Perhaps they were wrong to pull back from the Imperium, but, in their view, there is only one way to right their shame: Vengeance. A quest for what has been termed their 'Black Grail' which is redemption. They cannot rest until the sins of the past have been erased, therefore they cannot serve the Imperium as they should and want to do (as evidenced by Boreas). Slowly but surely, that decision over 10,000 years became dogma and tradition and secrets on secrets.

 

I think one has to ask why they felt that they had to keep it away from the Imperium. What challenges were faced by the post-Siege Imperium? Was it purely shame, or, was there a fundamental backlash against any form of Chaotic corruption in any force that led to extermination? Possibly most mutants died in the scouring, it could be possible that any hint of heresy in any armed force, Astartes or Mortal, was destroyed brutally. The DA co-operate quite well with the HLoT with the splitting of the Legion and the like and using the Codex. I also would disagree with cutting ties, I think the DA are far more integrated than we are aware, and far more able to be integrated than we give them credit for. In addition, I think the whole 'never turn up and leave all the time' maxim is over-used and not accurate, really. We, as fans, see it far more than normal people in the 41st Millennium. When there is no news, the Chapter operates as normal, and most fallen can be taken with only a few DW and RW.

 

Apologies for the wall of text, and now Im not sure I agree with my original agreement on the Batman lines.

[Reinen]

No. No, it doesn't. Not in the slightest. It doesn't even come close to describing the Dark Angels attitude.

 

Their attitude towards the Fallen is like a child hiding the mess from a broken vase under a piece of furniture and not telling anyone what happened to it. If they truly were selflessly willing to confront the issue, despite what people might say, they would have stood up and told the Imperium there were more traitors out there, and the Dark Angels were going after them. Show the Imperium the Dark Angels were loyal no matter what.

...

 

But Boreas died for the sake of planet rescue, wasn't it?

He could destroy people and catch fallen, but chose other way. The trilogy "Legacy of Cfliban" will answer many questions.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

No. No, it doesn't. Not in the slightest. It doesn't even come close to describing the Dark Angels attitude.

 

Their attitude towards the Fallen is like a child hiding the mess from a broken vase under a piece of furniture and not telling anyone what happened to it. If they truly were selflessly willing to confront the issue, despite what people might say, they would have stood up and told the Imperium there were more traitors out there, and the Dark Angels were going after them. Show the Imperium the Dark Angels were loyal no matter what.

...

 

But Boreas died for the sake of planet rescue, wasn't it?

He could destroy people and catch fallen, but chose other way. The trilogy "Legacy of Cfliban" will answer many questions.

 

Yes, or it could just raise many, many more.

[Brother Immolator]

No. No, it doesn't. Not in the slightest. It doesn't even come close to describing the Dark Angels attitude.

 

Their attitude towards the Fallen is like a child hiding the mess from a broken vase under a piece of furniture and not telling anyone what happened to it. If they truly were selflessly willing to confront the issue, despite what people might say, they would have stood up and told the Imperium there were more traitors out there, and the Dark Angels were going after them. Show the Imperium the Dark Angels were loyal no matter what.

 

Instead they decided to cut ties, become insular and isolationist, detach themselves from the span of control of the Imperium and just fight when, where, and why they want to.

 

Hardly the selfless heroes.

 

 

And before any single one of you attempts to accuse me of hate, I like the Dark Angels, so dont even try it. They are not selfless, noble, or good, they simply are what they are.

 

Whats a templar doing here? Shooo.. :P

 

Anyway, while I agree on some points, thats only the surface of the lake. No space marines are heroes. Well perhaps the salamanders and at some times the SWs are. But at times.

 

The approach they took of the problem was hardly childish. The Lion didnt trust Guilliman and is only natural that the chapter postmortem would continue to view his reforms with skepticism. Further more during a time of upheaval were traitors are everywhere and civil war rampages (remember that the war didnt effectively ended when horus died, there was a lot of clean up to do still) admitting to everyone that a significant number of your people have fallen while you lost and your primarch in the open minded not paranoid/desperate/delusional imperium is a recepie for destruction. Thus creating the circles to keep a measure of the Unforgiven military machine under a sort of unison preserve themselves and deal with the problem. They hardly kept under the table without telling anyone who broke the vase. Instead they told everyone that they dont know what happened (after all it disappeared right?) and set off to create a lemonade stand on the farside of the city to raise funds and buy a new one. And all because their mommy wouldnt allow them to raise the stand and would strangle them because of a vase.

 

Reinen, what has the Lions death to do with Guilliman? The Lion died due to Luther. He might have been right that Guilliman wanted the throne but by that time Guilliman was Loyal and Johnson proceeded to terra and the rest is history. Just because he had his mind revolving around the possibilty of Guillimans betrayal doesnt mean that it will happen or that he will fight Guilliman. Rather it was displaying his thoughts on the matter and that he was willing to go to battle *if* :cuss hit the fan.

 

I think you are reading to much into it ;)

[Reinen]

Reinen, what has the Lions death to do with Guilliman? The Lion died due to Luther. He might have been right that Guilliman wanted the throne but by that time Guilliman was Loyal and Johnson proceeded to terra and the rest is history. Just because he had his mind revolving around the possibilty of Guillimans betrayal doesnt mean that it will happen or that he will fight Guilliman. Rather it was displaying his thoughts on the matter and that he was willing to go to battle *if* :tu: hit the fan.

 

I wanted to tell that the Lion was late on Caliban. He didn't suppress mutiny in time. He all the same didn't catch Curze, and Guilliman was harmless to the Emperor.

 

I think you are reading to much into it :lol:

 

When much it is better, than it is not enough. :lol:

 

Whats a templar doing here? Shooo..

 

Everything is normal, he is Templar, instead Space Wolf. :lol:

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Basically the DA player will tell that the Lion is not a traitor, and the rest of the community (90%) will tell the contrary or question this state of mind to the least, ala mister Templar ^_^ . Things (DA players viewpoint against the rest of the community) are yet set up exactly like this, since Angels of Darkness.

 

DA background is all about being sinister, and the dev know this, they don't follow exactly the route of sinister and loyal, which is apparently the DA player thing and basics. The rest of the community approves GW, which is the natural way of thinking if you think a minute about it (can you?), after all.

 

Actually in Angels of Darkness by Thorpe, the Lion was the traitor. Frater Reinen has found the keys, even if he doesn't say himself the Lion is the traitor. Due to the reaction of the DA players, someone should remember this, right in the forums, Astellan was made a liar by Thorpe...or maybie he's still not, as the fluff basically is "everything is a lie".

 

....As of my viewpoint, the original primarch of the Dark Angels has nothing to do with being a traitor, at all. But since that DA have changed since 2nd edition, maybie he is, now. Sometimes you cannot have a cake (being sinister) and eat it.

 

BL writers prepare other sad things for the DA players who want to be utterly and definetly loyal, unfortunately..., they did add some in the last books (the Lion killing his officer who wants to obey to the Emperor, or the Lion being depicted as a perfect incapable), and they are going to add more. This is the state of things now I suppose.

 

Now I agree with several fraters, in the best of the best worlds, the Lion shouldn't be a traitor... ;)

 

...or on a lighter note, shouldn't also be black-haired which was precisely an attempt made by a designer/BL writers to change his hair color several years ago - details details, DA are now black-haired, but the primarch is blond, welcome to the bizarre? :)

 

Cheers.

[Raven Angel]

The Lion might not be a Traitor but I question weather he is still fit to Command.

[Sviar]

Hi.

 

Basically the DA player will tell that the Lion is not a traitor, and the rest of the community (90%) will tell the contrary or question this state of mind to the least, ala mister Templar ^_^ . Things (DA players viewpoint against the rest of the community) are yet set up exactly like this, since Angels of Darkness.

 

DA background is all about being sinister, and the dev know this, they don't follow exactly the route of sinister and loyal, which is apparently the DA player thing and basics. The rest of the community approves GW, which is the natural way of thinking if you think a minute about it (can you?), after all.

 

Actually in Angels of Darkness by Thorpe, the Lion was the traitor. Frater Reinen has found the keys, even if he doesn't say himself the Lion is the traitor. Due to the reaction of the DA players, someone should remember this, right in the forums, Astellan was made a liar by Thorpe...or maybie he's still not, as the fluff basically is "everything is a lie".

 

....As of my viewpoint, the original primarch of the Dark Angels has nothing to do with being a traitor, at all. But since that DA have changed since 2nd edition, maybie he is, now. Sometimes you cannot have a cake (being sinister) and eat it.

 

BL writers prepare other sad things for the DA players who want to be utterly and definetly loyal, unfortunately..., they did add some in the last books (the Lion killing his officer who wants to obey to the Emperor, or the Lion being depicted as a perfect incapable), and they are going to add more. This is the state of things now I suppose.

 

Now I agree with several fraters, in the best of the best worlds, the Lion shouldn't be a traitor... ;)

 

...or on a lighter note, shouldn't also be black-haired which was precisely an attempt made by a designer/BL writers to change his hair color several years ago - details details, DA are now black-haired, but the primarch is blond, welcome to the bizarre? :)

 

Cheers.

 

This means that the DA history as I know it will soon just be a tale and nothing more, so sad :(. As I interpret it, we basically has to re-learn our history, not to found about that.

[Brother Immolator]

All this is mere speculation. If things like that were non existent to stimulate the feeling of hopelessness, stagnation foster the weight of doubt and mystery and the weight of the DAs sinful past the chapter would be a simple blunt stale:' The DA are a chapter that deploy the first company in terminator armor, the second company in bikes and speeder. Its primarch the Lion was undeniably loyal to the emperor and after an internal battle that seen the absolutely Loyal primarch and absolutely loyal DA expunge the traitors he died. Now the DA serve the imperium with distinction'.

 

Lets name them ultramarines...

[Reinen]

Actually in Angels of Darkness by Thorpe, the Lion was the traitor. Frater Reinen has found the keys, even if he doesn't say himself the Lion is the traitor.

 

Brother Reinen says that he thinks and hides nothing. Treachery is the conscious act. Mistakes treachery aren't. Lion not traitor. But in books his mistakes which led he to death are described.

What here the unclear? World of Warhammer is described in books and codex of GW, other Warhammer isn't present. Authors coordinate all plots with GW. To argue with their texts senselessly.

 

In the book "Angels of Darkness" it is not written "Lion was traitor".

Last words of novell "Praise Lion".

Brothers, don't read Lexicanum instead of books.

 

All this is mere speculation. If things like that were non existent to stimulate the feeling of hopelessness, stagnation foster the weight of doubt and mystery and the weight of the DAs sinful past the chapter would be a simple blunt stale:' The DA are a chapter that deploy the first company in terminator armor, the second company in bikes and speeder. Its primarch the Lion was undeniably loyal to the emperor and after an internal battle that seen the absolutely Loyal primarch and absolutely loyal DA expunge the traitors he died. Now the DA serve the imperium with distinction'.

 

Lets name them ultramarines...

 

Yes!

The simple and unequivocal history of Chapter would be uninteresting. There is nothing worse, than boring novells.

 

P.S.

In Lexicanum by places the nonsense is written. For example, there it is written ostensibly Boreas thought that Luther it was right. Though someone would correct this nonsense which doesn't correspond to the novel text.

P.P.S. Some words that the Lion killed Nemiel. Yes, in a temper, killed, but right there regretted about it. Primarchs didn't possess ideal characters.

[Reinen]

This means that the DA history as I know it will soon just be a tale and nothing more, so sad ;). As I interpret it, we basically has to re-learn our history, not to found about that.

 

Be not afflicted, brother.

I do not think that someone will dare to offend our Chapter. ;)

 

Books about DA will be more interesting, than books about utramar. No more.