Daemonic Nerfing

[Seahawk]

Well, with the newest WD update, Flamers got hit with something of a nerfbat. I think.

 

They are going to lose their 4+ inv save, instead getting the 5+ for Daemon. They lose the Fearless that the rest of the army has, as well. They lose the option for Bolt of Tzeentch too.

 

What do they gain for this? +1 Wound and Initiative, a unit champion upgrade that only has an extra attack, and their price drops by about 1/3rd.

 

What do you think? I'd prefer the Tzeentchy 4+ and I usually have that Bolt of doom, but I see they are trying to make them the same as the WHFB version.

[Vesper]

Feels a bit weird to me.

I see the whole "getting them back in the ranks" and stuff, but they seemed kinda flavorful, being halfway between lesser daemons and heralds.

But yeah, seems to me that the revamp of that unit is nothing more than a nerf.

Don't understand that nerf, don't get what is the role of the flamers now, but hey, not understanding what the heck GW is doing is somehow a sign of a healthy mind.

And mine's very healthy.

 

That being said, I'm not fond of the Chaos daemons being the very same than their WFB counterpart. Gee, that Soulgrinder looks so freaking stupid in the fantasy army.

 

In conclusion :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m05jUsWIsJE

[Godhead]

Wait, is the WD update out already?

 

As for bolt, as much as I needed ranged AT it was so ungodly expensive that I stopped buying it when I fielded flamers. But that was obviously just my preference. Also why would they lose fearless? If they did though, then they could go to ground if needed. Plus if they are in area terrain, they would have a 3+ cover save.

[Vesper]

My mistake.

[Seahawk]

@Godhead: Watch the video here. In full screen you can make out details of the units, and it's depressing.

 

You know, it might not lose Fearless, but since the stat-line changed a bit, as has the definition of Daemon, who really knows. There might be 3 different definitions of Daemon at this point.

[Cmdr Shepard]

At least my Flying MCs should be safe from nerfing.... right?

 

So if I'm not mistaken they still have breath of chaos.

The price drop by about 1/3 means I may found a place for them in the army I'm building but I suppose I'll choose crushers, anyway.

[Sception]

If the tzeentch gimmick is moving from +1 inv save to ... something else, then I'm all for it as a CSM player. The +1 inv. Tzeentch mark didn't result in awesome Inv. saves for tzeentch, it resulted in poor inv. saves for every other alignments characters. And if we're going to be forced into challenges in our upcoming codex, I'd really like to be able to have an acceptable inv. save for dueling on all my HQs, not just tzeentch aligned ones.

 

an extra wound and reduced cost for flamers, and seekers becoming terminator killers, seems like a fair trade for those units such that I wouldn't call them completely nerfed.

[Vesper]

At least my Flying MCs should be safe from nerfing.... right?

 

So if I'm not mistaken they still have breath of chaos.

The price drop by about 1/3 means I may found a place for them in the army I'm building but I suppose I'll choose crushers, anyway.

 

I'd be pretty cautious with that, flying MC work, so GW may want to nerf those.

And yeah, flamers aren't a choice anymore when you can get Bloodcrusher, considering they lose too much for only a drop of a third of their cost.

[Cmdr Shepard]

At least my Flying MCs should be safe from nerfing.... right?

 

So if I'm not mistaken they still have breath of chaos.

The price drop by about 1/3 means I may found a place for them in the army I'm building but I suppose I'll choose crushers, anyway.

 

I'd be pretty cautious with that, flying MC work, so GW may want to nerf those.

 

GW want to sell them and nerfing them would reduce the number of purchased models.

If we were on the forum of a very famous videogame company ( I don't want to write names ;) ) it would have been another story, since they nerf wahtever it works :P

Let's hope GW won't follow those steps ;). I have 4 Flying Greater Daemons that are eager to kill some enemy on the battlefield.

 

Anyway I heard positive opionions of the new "screamers"... I could be interesting, if they are still jet bikes....

[Vesper]

Blizzard with Starcraft II, right ?

Come on, Terrans are in that phase where they have to rework their agressive openings against Zerg. That is all.

They do have answers to the Tier 3 Zerg, and good ones. They just have to make it happen, instead of complain about the imbalance while waiting for some random corean to find new timings.

 

That being said, GW nerfs are not motivated by reason. I like to think it's all about the sake of nerfing.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Blizzard with Starcraft II, right ?

Come on, Terrans are in that phase where they have to rework their agressive openings against Zerg. That is all.

They do have answers to the Tier 3 Zerg, and good ones. They just have to make it happen, instead of complain about the imbalance while waiting for some random corean to find new timings.

 

That being said, GW nerfs are not motivated by reason. I like to think it's all about the sake of nerfing.

 

In fact I was referring to Bioware with Mass Effect 3 multiplayer :P but I heard players complained about Blizzard too. I cannot speak for them since I'm not very expert on that matter ;)

 

Anyway it's clear GW wants to make "Winged Daemons" "Flying MCs" so I think Codex: Daemons will be safe, at least for a while. Currently there is no reason to make Greater Daemons "Jump MC" since they are among the very few Flying MCs right now. It's them and two Tyranids units, after all.

[Vesper]

The Chaos marine DP with wings is jump infantry, you know.

 

And ME3 isn't a competitive multiplayer game. Nerfing things is ok, because it makes the game challenging.

[Cmdr Shepard]

The Chaos marine DP with wings is jump infantry, you know.

 

And ME3 isn't a competitive multiplayer game. Nerfing things is ok, because it makes the game challenging.

 

Challenging until you meet a bunch of bad players who ruin your fun because they die every 30 seconds and want to be carried because they want easy credits, then it becomes boring :P

 

Back on the topic:

CSM Prince's wings cost 40 pts less of Daemons' one, so I see this balanced, after all

[Vesper]

They are also the sole viable HQ choice of the codex.

That's bad.

[Cmdr Shepard]

They are also the sole viable HQ choice of the codex.

That's bad.

 

True. Maybe GW will chamge it in the next Codex.

[breng77]

I actually think flames got better, they are more durable for less points, I'm pretty sure they are still fearless(could be wrong), as I believe the daemon codex daemons still follow the daemon rules from their book with the addition of the new rule based on the faq(again could be wrong). But they are essentially as good as before (or better) for less points.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I actually think flames got better, they are more durable for less points, I'm pretty sure they are still fearless(could be wrong), as I believe the daemon codex daemons still follow the daemon rules from their book with the addition of the new rule based on the faq(again could be wrong). But they are essentially as good as before (or better) for less points.

 

They are still fearless due to daemons wide-army rules. They now have a 5++ invul coming from their USR (am I right?), two wounds, BS4 and two shooting powers (the lost one but it's not a serious problem).

I'm thinking to add them to the current army I'm building, a 2000pts, 4 Flying Greater Daemon force. I have still 487 pts avaialble and I'm thinking to use them for Flamers.

A 6 models unit should be able to kill 9 MEQ per turn, provided the each template only covers 3 models.

 

Charging them would be nearly sucidal: 6xd3 wall of death shots who kill a MEQ on 4+! Not to mention the will glance charging dreads to death.

 

I'm not very positive towards the new charriots, thogh....

[Black_Crusader]

I think that having the same defencive statline as the fiends (toughness 4, 5++ save, 2 wounds) will make them able to survive longer. Double wounds for 1 less save and less points cost looks like a buff to me not a nerf.

Now if you where to tell me they will stop being jump infantry or something like that then that will be an epic nerf... otherwise i believe their overwatch of death worth every point.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I think that having the same defencive statline as the fiends (toughness 4, 5++ save, 2 wounds) will make them able to survive longer. Double wounds for 1 less save and less points cost looks like a buff to me not a nerf.

Now if you where to tell me they will stop being jump infantry or something like that then that will be an epic nerf... otherwise i believe their overwatch of death worth every point.

 

They are still jump infantry :)

They also got BS4, not useful for breath of chaose but the other shooting power will benefit from it. No more S8 attack but they still have the same shooting power horrors have plus the wonderful breath of chaos.

 

Honestly I'm thinking to use them in the flying Greater Daemons I'm building. As I said before 6 flamers means 9 dead MEQs per turn. Of course you won't be able to use breath of chaos for all of them once they arrive from reserve (since they have to place in "round" the template will be placed on friendly models for several of them) but once the move they will be a wonderful supporting unit.

 

Move your flamers "ignite" breath of chaos and let your greater daemon to kill the survivors. Do you need a defensive position? Place them between your objective and the melee enemy unit. If the want to come closer they'll have to charge you getting a good number of d3 breath of chaos hits. Dread will die before being able to complete the charge. Your flamers will "eat" those 3 hull points with ease (a 6 flamers unit should remove 3 hull points by rolling 1 for the overwatch attack ;) )

In a single word: amazing!

 

I have still 487 pts avaliable for my army and I thought to field several crushers but I'm very tempted to field 3x6 Flamers units ;)

[Ayura]

Move your flamers "ignite" breath of chaos and let your greater daemon to kill the survivors. Do you need a defensive position? Place them between your objective and the melee enemy unit. If the want to come closer they'll have to charge you getting a good number of d3 breath of chaos hits. Dread will die before being able to complete the charge. Your flamers will "eat" those 3 hull points with ease (a 6 flamers unit should remove 3 hull points by rolling 1 for the overwatch attack ^_^ )

In a single word: amazing!

 

Hi im confused about what you mean by d3 attacks when charged, and rolling 1 for overwatch?

Its my understanding that template weps cannot be fired as overwatch since template weps cannot fire snap shots.

 

What am i missing :huh: ?

[Cmdr Shepard]

Move your flamers "ignite" breath of chaos and let your greater daemon to kill the survivors. Do you need a defensive position? Place them between your objective and the melee enemy unit. If the want to come closer they'll have to charge you getting a good number of d3 breath of chaos hits. Dread will die before being able to complete the charge. Your flamers will "eat" those 3 hull points with ease (a 6 flamers unit should remove 3 hull points by rolling 1 for the overwatch attack :D )

In a single word: amazing!

 

Hi im confused about what you mean by d3 attacks when charged, and rolling 1 for overwatch?

Its my understanding that template weps cannot be fired as overwatch since template weps cannot fire snap shots.

 

What am i missing :( ?

 

I'm refering to the "wall of death" rule (Rulebook pag. 52).

In very simple words: Flamers' weapon inflict d3 automatic hit during overwatch.

 

Anyway the whole tactic I mentioned works nicely in theory but it's more difficult in practice.

Anyway blast weapons cannot fire during overwatch, template (like flamers/heavy flamers) cannot fire snap shots but can fire during overwatch. The rulebook is clear on that point.

[Ming]

And i might add, a unit of 9 can easily wreck a landraider, and if you cover more than one unit you mess them up too. Heck, a well placed strike could HP-kill a whole parking lot of vehicles...I ran into a player with 2 units of 9 recently...and it is not fun to be on the receiving end of 9 AP3 templates...so they just had to die...slowly...and when the second unit dropped...started over...dual flamer lists essentially require everyone else have vehicles just to survive turns 1 and 2...(if) I played daemons, I'd recommend these units to everyone...

[Ayura]

Move your flamers "ignite" breath of chaos and let your greater daemon to kill the survivors. Do you need a defensive position? Place them between your objective and the melee enemy unit. If the want to come closer they'll have to charge you getting a good number of d3 breath of chaos hits. Dread will die before being able to complete the charge. Your flamers will "eat" those 3 hull points with ease (a 6 flamers unit should remove 3 hull points by rolling 1 for the overwatch attack ;) )

In a single word: amazing!

 

Hi im confused about what you mean by d3 attacks when charged, and rolling 1 for overwatch?

Its my understanding that template weps cannot be fired as overwatch since template weps cannot fire snap shots.

 

What am i missing :( ?

 

I'm refering to the "wall of death" rule (Rulebook pag. 52).

In very simple words: Flamers' weapon inflict d3 automatic hit during overwatch.

 

Anyway the whole tactic I mentioned works nicely in theory but it's more difficult in practice.

Anyway blast weapons cannot fire during overwatch, template (like flamers/heavy flamers) cannot fire snap shots but can fire during overwatch. The rulebook is clear on that point.

 

 

Wow! Yea i see! That's pretty lethal...

[Seahawk]

AP3 templates

It's not AP3. It ignores all armor saves ;).

[IK Viper]

The changes made to Flamers are clearly a buff, you have a model that has 2 wounds, is a jump troop (can't out run them), is basically unassaultable (may not be a word), glances vehicles regardless of AV on 4+, and each model in the squad has an AP2, wounds on 4's flame template. even the mighty Flamestorm Cannon, is only S6 AP3 and only comes on large vehicles, (max of 2 on a LRR) to buy one of these weapons simply as an upgrade for a Daemon Prince costs 30 points, which is more then a single Flamer currently costs.... how are they nurfed? this is an obvious buff as a sales tactic by GW, and loads of ppl are buying into it just proving to them that they can keep doing this stuff and we as gamers will take it.

 

Screamers are the same way, the only other unit outside of IC's and MC's (that I can think of, may be wrong) that have AP2 and strike at initiative are DE Incubi, which are MUCH slower, have one wound, and are expensive relative to the other units in their Codex. I would also add that Incubi are nowhere near as useful since they dont have fly over rules, Screamers are basically Incubi on Reaver jet bikes for less points with 2 wounds, are Eternal Warriors, and strength 5...