Nobz Mobz and the killing of such....

[Gideon999]

Hail brothers!

 

I recently had my first game in 6th against a good friend. 2000pts, dawn of war with the mission that utilizes fast attack as scoring (dont recall the name).

 

Overall, my combined force of Wolves and Crimson Fist allies did quite well. I lost, but only by 1 objective and only because the game ended on turn 5 (next turn I was set to roll a squad off of one of his objectives, which would have left me with 2 and him with 1).

 

The problem was a mob of nobz in a battlewagon. He had a warboss with claw and squig, Big Mek (KFF variant), painboy, 2 power klaw nobz, 2 standard nobz and one with a huge choppa.

 

The issue isnt so much about killing them, they were a terror to get rid of in 5th thanks to the two wounds and the wound allocation games we used to be able to play. I wasnt expecting that to get worse now though considering how wound allocation goes now. The part that I wanted to check on was the Look Out Sir part. He played it as each nob counting as a character, so he could LOS any wound to any model he liked. Also, since he had two IC's in the squad, he could take a 4+ armour save or 5+ invul, then a 5+ feel no pain, then a 2+ LOS roll on the IC and chuck that wound on any nob he likes in the squad. And if the ICs werent the closest target (forcing him to take the wound on a regular nob) he said since Nobz are all characters in a squad like that ALL of them can at least take a 4+ LOS roll.

 

Is that how this actually works with Nob squads? Seems like a squad of nobz should have to have a single model as the "character" or leader?

 

Has anyone else run across this or come up with a good way of countering it? Is it even legal?

 

Thanks everyone!

[ShinyRhino]

Until FAQ'd, yes, it is legal.

The trick of it is torrenting them with firepower. Even volleys of bolter rounds will put wounds on the unit, and you can only make so many LOS rolls before wounded models start dying.

Also, fire from various vectors, instead of from straight ahead, which avoids the Warboss as the primary target, thereby making the LOS rolls harder to make.

Also remember that FNP is still denied to models when the wound is doubel their Toughness. Krak missiles will still deny FNP to Nobz.

 

Mobility is king in 6th Edition, as it allows you to attack units from different angles, playing hell with their wounding order.

[dswanick]

OK, let's take this one part at a time.

He played it as each nob counting as a character, so he could LOS any wound to any model he liked.

This is correct, per the BRB, Pg.413.

Also, since he had two IC's in the squad, he could take a 4+ armour save or 5+ invul, then a 5+ feel no pain, then a 2+ LOS roll on the IC and chuck that wound on any nob he likes in the squad.

If every model in the squad had the same saves, then yes - he can make his saves first, then when a wound is allocated to the IC he can make a 2+ LO,S! roll.

If, however, the unit consisted of mixed saves (some w/ 4+ others with 5+, some with Inv some without) then he had to make his LO,S! roll before taking a Save (which would then be the save of the sacrificial model). Further, FNP only works on Unsaved Wounds Allocated to a model with it. If he made a FNP roll it is too late to reallocate the wound using LO,S!.

And if the ICs werent the closest target (forcing him to take the wound on a regular nob) he said since Nobz are all characters in a squad like that ALL of them can at least take a 4+ LOS roll.

Again, correct because each Nobz is a character.

Is that how this actually works with Nob squads? Seems like a squad of nobz should have to have a single model as the "character" or leader?

Unfortunately, that's not how it is. Also, Wolf Guard Packs and a Necron unit if I'm not mistaken.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Remember Look out Sir can be performed after save rolls ONLY if all models share the same save.

If the unit as mixed saves you must decide to perform LOS before rolling your saves.

In this case if his Nobz didn't buy the 4+ armour upgrade he shouldn't have transferred the wound from IC to Nobz after the saves rolls.

[Feste]

In general he's correct. The Reference section of the BRB currently refers to Nobz as characters. While the description of characters suggests that they're unique models with a different profile from the rest of the squad, it also mentions squads of characters. See also: Paladins.

 

I wouldn't get too attached to this interpretation of Nobz though, because their profile acts quite like that of Wolf Guard who aren't characters when in a squad of characters. However that's mention in the Wolf FAQ, and the Ork FAQ mentions no such thing.

 

However, all is not good in Ork land:

 

Also, since he had two IC's in the squad, he could take a 4+ armour save or 5+ invul, then a 5+ feel no pain, then a 2+ LOS roll on the IC and chuck that wound on any nob he likes in the squad.

 

He's messed up the LO,S roll. A LO,S roll is made when a wound is allocated not after it's saved. In a mixed-armour unit, you allocate, Look Out, then roll for armour on the appropriate guy. In a uniform unit, you roll all the saves then allocate, then Look Out Sir. So we couldn't be passing it around after he failed the saved. Gotta stick with the result you get.

 

Edit: Ninja'd about 17 times!

[Feste]

Is that how this actually works with Nob squads? Seems like a squad of nobz should have to have a single model as the "character" or leader?

Unfortunately, that's not how it is. Also, Wolf Guard Packs and a Necron unit if I'm not mistaken.

Wolf Guard are, I think, only Characters when acting as a Pack Leaders. But the Necron Court specifically mentions in the Lords and Cryptek entries that their characters.

[Gideon999]

Ok, interesting though that the order we were doing the LOS rolls in was incorrect. Otherwise so be it! I had some AWESOME success with the new rapid fire rules for his 30 strong boyz mobz (he admitted he is not going to take them anymore, its 20 boyz in a battlewagon for him now). Keeping them out of range of a charge while still getting off 4-5 dead orks per squad of grey hunters was great.

 

Of course my own army will have some changes next time too : no vindicators for me, they never make their points back for me and his squad of 15 lootas just glances one to death every turn.

 

Tactical Terminator squad 10 strong with 2 cyclones was AWESOME. They tore stuff up shooting and only went down at the end of turn 4 after he got his nobz into close combat with them.

 

Scouts still sucked, (vanilla ones anyways) but since I had to take a unit of troops for the allies a 6 strong unit with sniper rifles and a heavy bolter (that 2+ poisoned shell is awesome!) and the new Precise shot rules made them not too terrible. They camped an objective all game long and took no casualties and cause about 5-6 dead boyz.

 

Footslogging was also very viable as a tactic, at least with grey hunters and tac termies. Long fangs are awesome as usual (actually a little better I think) and put out a ton of hurt all game long and only lost about 4 between 2 squads.

 

I think next time i woudl take some MM/HF speeders and maybe some typhoons to round the force out for the vehicles.

 

Also - there was a random power from I think the telekinesis school that put a haywire hit on a unit of vehicles. That power was GOLD against his mob of kanz, killing one and taking an HP off another. Though his dread was just as nasty as ever, even with krak grenades working at full initiative.

[Cmdr Shepard]

He's messed up the LO,S roll. A LO,S roll is made when a wound is allocated not after it's saved. In a mixed-armour unit, you allocate, Look Out, then roll for armour on the appropriate guy. In a uniform unit, you roll all the saves then allocate, then Look Out Sir. So we couldn't be passing it around after he failed the saved. Gotta stick with the result you get.

 

Edit: Ninja'd about 17 times!

 

I got Ninja'd too :P

Anyway I cannot understand why he didn't upgrade the Nobz armour. If you want to use that unit like an Ork "death star" giving them FNP,why don't giving them a 4+ armour save? There aren't a lot of model who negate your armour save in CC.

 

I would have been more concerned about Nobz+ Thraka. 2+ Save and when he knows he is about to meet TDA in CC... he declair Whaagh! and got a 2++ Save. Ouch!

[Gideon999]

All his nobz had 4+ armour and 5+ invul, not just the IC's. Would that change the order then?

[Gideon999]

Yes, he did do it right since they all had 4+ armour then. Answered my own question after I reread the answers you all posted.

 

Man thats rough....

[Cmdr Shepard]

Ok, interesting though that the order we were doing the LOS rolls in was incorrect. Otherwise so be it! I had some AWESOME success with the new rapid fire rules for his 30 strong boyz mobz (he admitted he is not going to take them anymore, its 20 boyz in a battlewagon for him now). Keeping them out of range of a charge while still getting off 4-5 dead orks per squad of grey hunters was great.

 

I'm not so sure about that and I suppose he is not playing Ork in the best way :P

30 Shoota Ork Boyz are painful to fight, especially if he fields multiple units. Even though they have BS they shoot 54 S4 24" shots, 15 S5 36" and the Nob's pistol (if he goes for the Klaw or CC weapon).

If you charge them you will suffer a torrent of fire (BS 1 does not make a huge difference when you have BS2 ;) ).

If he moves them carefully he can reduces losses but even though he loses a squad he should have 3/5 more of them.

 

If you went for the "slugga" option then he made you a favour.... just my opinion, though ;)

 

All his nobz had 4+ armour and 5+ invul, not just the IC's. Would that change the order then?

 

Then he can make the saves then roll for LOS.

[Feste]

If you went for the "slugga" option then he made you a favour.... just my opinion, though ;)

I hear that. There's a reason that some people talk about Shoota boyz being some of the best ranged anti-infantry units out there. The other thing to be grateful for (other than no Thraka!) is that he hasn't converted those Nobz to MegaNobz. They've got a great boost with the edition change, pretty much anything that can take care of their armour now longer hits before them. And if the Mad Dok ends up with the new rage <drools>

 

Oh. Don't underestimate the precision shots of Nobz with T/L Shootas. Thanks to the quirks of rerolls, it makes them about as good marksmen as is out there. I presume that's it due to the shear amount of lead slinging.

[dswanick]

I wouldn't get too attached to this interpretation of Nobz though, because their profile acts quite like that of Wolf Guard who aren't characters when in a squad of characters. However that's mention in the Wolf FAQ, and the Ork FAQ mentions no such thing.

While I agree that the (non)character status of Wolf Guard is probably RAI, the RAW is worded poorly enough that it is open to debate. The FAQ states that Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are characters, while not specifically stating that Wolf Guard left in the WG pack are not characters. This leaves room for a person to point to the Reference section which lists Wolf Guard as "In (Ch)", not Wolf Guard Pack Leaders "In (Ch)".

[Gideon999]

Oh he had 4 MANz in a trukk too, though they were easier to eat. With volume of fire and some power axes they actually folded while only eating maybe half a grey hunter squad. The shoota boyz though would be a better option, though in this particular battle they would not have helped him much since I could kill them from outside their engagement range and if he moved he would have lost his objectives.

 

Still, argh!

 

Overall though some nice new powers from the psykers. In addition to the mechanicum power I rolled one for divination that gave me the ability to put a 4+ invul on a squad, made my hunters all the more nasty in close combat against those power klaws....

[Cmdr Shepard]

If you went for the "slugga" option then he made you a favour.... just my opinion, though ;)

I hear that. There's a reason that some people talk about Shoota boyz being some of the best ranged anti-infantry units out there. The other thing to be grateful for (other than no Thraka!) is that he hasn't converted those Nobz to MegaNobz. They've got a great boost with the edition change, pretty much anything that can take care of their armour now longer hits before them. And if the Mad Dok ends up with the new rage <drools>

 

Oh. Don't underestimate the precision shots of Nobz with T/L Shootas. Thanks to the quirks of rerolls, it makes them about as good marksmen as is out there. I presume that's it due to the shear amount of lead slinging.

 

I never said they are the best anti-infantry but they can still ruin your day, or at least making it a less happy one ;)

 

The absence of Thraka was a good thing for the SM army. If I was OP I would have rise an altar to the Emperor on the table after the match ;)

I don't play Orks a lot (I'm mainly a SM/GK player) and I haven't done it in 6th yet but when I played Thraka in 5th he was always amazing. Imagine now that power weapons don't ignore his armour save and he doesn't have to roll for difficult terrain everytime he moves.

 

Another thing worth to mention is that a unit with a single Slow and Purposeful cannot run or overwatch BUT can fire heavy weapons as if it is stationary.

Imagine Thraka leading a mob of lootas: all of those d3 S7 48" shots per model on the move!

Thraka does not need help in CC he needs help in shooting and lootas are among the best shooting units in Codex: Orks (someone says even beyond it).

As SM player I would focus my firepower on the unit but I'll let the other mobs uncecked and free to overrun my position: a though decision.

 

I think what keeps many orks players away from using MegaNobz is:

1. They are pricey for an ork unit, even though a fully upgraded Nobz units is not much cheaper

2. Finding the models may not be easy. Currently they are Finecast models that cost 20€/22.25$/15£ each. Most player prefer to buy other models isteand of spending 200€/222.5$/150£ for a single unit.

 

I agree with you on their effectiveness and I know Nobz with T/L Shootas can be problematic to fight.

 

I believe Orks are like IG: it does not matter what edition you are playing, they will always deal a lot of damage ;)

 

EDIT:

 

The shoota boyz though would be a better option, though in this particular battle they would not have helped him much since I could kill them from outside their engagement range

 

What weapons did you have? Standard Bolters match shootas 24" range. Heavy Bolters may more damage thogh.

 

if he moved he would have lost his objectives.

That's why smart Ork players field Gretchins. They can hold an objective while Boyz "krush" (I suppose that's what an Ork would say ;) ) the other units.

In 5th edition they forced Ork players to field less Boyz Mobs, now with 2 FOC at 2000pts they can use a cheap HQ (a unupgraded Big Mek, for example) to unlock the second FOC without renouncing to his Boyz Mobs.

 

Overall though some nice new powers from the psykers.

With Space Wolves the best psychic power is Jaws of the Wolf etc, or whatever is its name. Forcing I checks with ork's I it's very effective.

[Axagoras]

Remember Look out Sir can be performed after save rolls ONLY if all models share the same save.

If the unit as mixed saves you must decide to perform LOS before rolling your saves.

In this case if his Nobz didn't buy the 4+ armour upgrade he shouldn't have transferred the wound from IC to Nobz after the saves rolls.

Where does it say that? I just looked at the look out sir rules and it didn't say anything about it.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Remember Look out Sir can be performed after save rolls ONLY if all models share the same save.

If the unit as mixed saves you must decide to perform LOS before rolling your saves.

In this case if his Nobz didn't buy the 4+ armour upgrade he shouldn't have transferred the wound from IC to Nobz after the saves rolls.

Where does it say that? I just looked at the look out sir rules and it didn't say anything about it.

 

It's simple.

LOS is performed when a wound is allocated.

If the unit has the same save you make the save, allocate wound, remove casualties.

If the unit has mixed saves you allocate, then make saves and remove casualties.

 

It has been talked about in several tipics here on B&C ;)

 

EDIT: See rulebook pag.15 for mixed saves.

[Gideon999]

I might be mistaken but I thought the basic ork shoota was an 18" range assault 2 weapon?

[Cmdr Shepard]

I might be mistaken but I thought the basic ork shoota was an 18" range assault 2 weapon?

My mistake. Anyway 6" are not enough to outrange an unit for good. :tu:

Beside at 18" you fire 1 shot; they fire 2.

[nurglez]

I played vs orks, and lootas in a battle wagon was pretty nasty, made them pretty untouchable at range, as I play Draigowing and he also had a kff mech in the wagon.

 

Wound allocation is pretty powerful now, both better and worse then in 5th.

 

My main unit of Draigo, terminator inquisitor and 10 paladins is very tough, and even tougher with Draigo being closest, took 15loota shots and he saved 14 of them, and bounced the failed wound to a paladin.

 

I feel that wolf guard and nobs are character units, like paladins. While there is the comment from the designers that they weren't meant to be like that, but until that is in an official FAQ I will be playing that they are all characters.

 

Best way to deal with nobs? Demolisher cannon or the battle cannon. Paladins own nobs too (any thing that can go before them and inflict instant death will threaten a death star :cuss

[Gideon999]

I have to say I didnt have ANY luck with my vindicators. They immobilized a battlewagon and killed about 6 boyz but that was it. I am thinking of reviving my TL-LAS/HB Sponson preds to see if they are salvagable (assembled those when I was new to the game, didnt magnetize, and have forever regretted it under 5th ed, lol).

[Cmdr Shepard]

Thunderfire cannons, especially with the 6th buff (now thunderfires are T7 2W 3+ Armour Save models), can deal a lot of damage to Orks.

If you play Space Wolve jaws of the wolf psychic power can kill a lot of them.

Vindicator are also good but the need a 24" range and sometimes you want to kill them from afar :D

 

My main unit of Draigo, terminator inquisitor and 10 paladins is very tough, and even tougher with Draigo being closest, took 15loota shots and he saved 14 of them, and bounced the failed wound to a paladin.

I'm not surprised.

10 Paladins plus Draigo are worth more than 1000 pts while 15 lootas cost about 1/6 of them. There should be reason for that. ;)

[Lord Falkor]

The issue isnt so much about killing them, they were a terror to get rid of in 5th thanks to the two wounds and the wound allocation games we used to be able to play. I wasnt expecting that to get worse now though considering how wound allocation goes now. The part that I wanted to check on was the Look Out Sir part. He played it as each nob counting as a character, so he could LOS any wound to any model he liked. Also, since he had two IC's in the squad, he could take a 4+ armour save or 5+ invul, then a 5+ feel no pain, then a 2+ LOS roll on the IC and chuck that wound on any nob he likes in the squad. And if the ICs werent the closest target (forcing him to take the wound on a regular nob) he said since Nobz are all characters in a squad like that ALL of them can at least take a 4+ LOS roll.

 

this is wrong he should have been making 2+LOS rolls as he was playing all the Nobz as IC's the 4+ LOS is for non IC's

[dswanick]

The issue isnt so much about killing them, they were a terror to get rid of in 5th thanks to the two wounds and the wound allocation games we used to be able to play. I wasnt expecting that to get worse now though considering how wound allocation goes now. The part that I wanted to check on was the Look Out Sir part. He played it as each nob counting as a character, so he could LOS any wound to any model he liked. Also, since he had two IC's in the squad, he could take a 4+ armour save or 5+ invul, then a 5+ feel no pain, then a 2+ LOS roll on the IC and chuck that wound on any nob he likes in the squad. And if the ICs werent the closest target (forcing him to take the wound on a regular nob) he said since Nobz are all characters in a squad like that ALL of them can at least take a 4+ LOS roll.

 

this is wrong he should have been making 2+LOS rolls as he was playing all the Nobz as IC's the 4+ LOS is for non IC's

A unit of Nobz are never Independant Characters.

[nurglez]

Aye, character units count as normal characters, so a 4+ look out sir.