Chaplains and Economics

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Fluff players beware, this thread will make you sad.

To begin, Blood Angel Chaplains have always been part and parcel with our Death Company. For years and years they were the glue that made Death Company useable, they allowed the DC to move however they pleased instead of getting led about by the nose chasing Pirahnas while that Broadside team sat tantalizingly only 2" further away....

Then the new codex removed even that ability-- this was the dark age of the Death Company, where they were at their least utility.

Behold! A new day has risen and 6th Edition has turned our deathly warriors into the true slaughters they deserve to be.

Naturally, we flip to our codex and see 'just how can I make even more out of my selection? How can I truly make them over-the-top-none-better-destroy-and-annihilate everything they touch?

History said Chaplains-- it was ingrained in our subconsciousness from our past codexes. Also, those Litanies of Blood (LoB) look AMAZING, right!?! Reroll Hits AND Wounds!!

Surely nothing can be better.

Unfortunately, the numbers don't lie.... 6th Edition has brought something else to life: The strength 5 power axe.......ie...... Str6 with Furious Charge. You're now killing MEQ on 2+ (oh did I need to mention TEQ too?)

A Death Company Marine (DCM) kills 0.74 MEQ on the charge with 5 attacks

A DCM with Axe: 2.78

A Chaplain: 0.99

A DCM with LoB: 1.32

A DCM with Axe & LoB: 4.32

Seems good right? LoB is ramping their abilities like they should, right? Well....... there's another factor. Points.

Please Examine this Table

Things are still good right? When you add enough bodies, the rerolls start making themselves felt and the Chaplain-Units start winning, right?

No... no the sad and unfortunate answer is that you will ALWAYS kill much MUCH more MEQ if you spend the points you would have spent on a Chaplain on Power Axes.

Chaplain= 100pts = 6 Power Axes. You can't argue with the math. See the next chart:

Now you may argue that if you mix in Power Axes with the Chaplain, then he can overtake his points-cost in PowerAxes on the DCM.

While this is true, the unit has to be a glass cannon, and nearly all the DCM have to already have Power Axes. See the bottom right corner of the first table for example.

I'm sure someone will comment about initiative 1, and someone will mention Horde-units with poor armor saves, and someone will mention Monstrous Creatures.

However, if you really examine it--- the fact DC can't be challenged (making the axes 'hidden'), the fact they don't have problems with hordes anyway, and the fact that MC usually have 3+ armor saves means that Strength6 on the charge still comes out ahead.

By the way, you can run this with Power Fists and the Fists STILL come out ahead on effectiveness (MEQ Kills divided by Cost)

TL;DR ----- I will never take another Chaplain again. He is not worth his points, since he does not buff kills equal to his cost-equivalent in Power Fists or Power Axes.

[Chairman_woo]

................your clearly better at maths than me! :lol:

 

I've debating wether the 100pt chappy was worth it on a drop-pod Bolter squad, I found myself thinking a fist and a couple of axes might do the job well enough. You may have persuaded me I was correct to think this. Especially if the enemy charges them which leads to add.....

 

 

death company tooled your way keep much of their power even when the enemy charges you (s5 is better than nothing) and furthermore retains its extra hittyness over subsequent rounds of combat, wheras the chappy based mechanic does not!

 

Sounds good man, I had this feeling from day 1 that axes would prove to be pretty sweet for us dispite all the "not as good as a fist" talk. Extra attack and easily attainable s6 makes them sweet on many of our units like vanguard. Death co. Are looking like shining examples B)

[Taranis]

Well spotted, CitadelArmyGuy. Your work/charts speak volumes. I can't find any major argument against it. The chaplain can be challenge and allocated on 6 to hit by characters. They only have to weather the storm so keep most in second rank.

DC in 6th can easily be Death Choppa.

[himkano]

But you have to take a HQ choice. If you make that choice a Reclusiarch, how will that affect your numbers? Then you are only paying 30 points extra. (I know that a lot of people like other HQ choices, but I don't feel bad about a naked reclusiarch, whereas I have a strong urge to "kit up" any other HQ to maximize their potential - I guess I feel that a naked reclusiarch, with power maul and re-rolls fo DCM is already maximized potential, although I don't have the numbers to back it up)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Divination Librarian beats the Reclusiarch in every sense.

 

Rerolls both shooting and melee. Rerolls continue past the charge. His weapon is AP3 (or 2 if Axe). He has a psychic hood. He is cheaper points.

 

Just a more effective HQ, thats all.

[Israfel]

Very nice work CAG but Lemartes probably requires a math in its own, right?

[toaae]

Very nice work CAG but Lemartes probably requires a math in its own, right?

 

I looked at it. Even angry Lemartes doesn't make up the gap.

 

Time to get more axes.

[Morollan]

Looking at the first table, 5 of the 9 options are won by a unit with a Chaplain. Also, what effect does it have when we start to consider non-MEQ enemies? Anything with high WS and/or high T would seem to favour the Chaplain as the rerolls then become more valuable. Also, anything with high I runs the risk of wiping you out before you can strike with your axes.

 

It's certainly an interesting analysis but I think it needs more thought before we can come to a genuine conclusion.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Divination Librarian beats the Reclusiarch in every sense.

 

Rerolls both shooting and melee. Rerolls continue past the charge. His weapon is AP3 (or 2 if Axe). He has a psychic hood. He is cheaper points.

 

Just a more effective HQ, thats all.

 

Nah, that's not true. A Libby versus the HQ Chaplain(reclusiarch) is far from more effective. The things you write are true, however you're disregarding the fact that a Librarian is damn weak. The shabby profile(yes, I'm going that way) makes him as survivable in CC/shooting as a pumped up Tactical marine.

His powers, while even more essential, don't help him when he get's hit by a plasma shot. Now, you say 'Well, that's what Look out Sir! is for innit!' and that's good because...the Chaplain has that as well. And a 4+ invul save. And init 5. And gives fearless(not so good when in DC) and Litanies of blood (better than that Divination spell) to the DC.

 

 

Astorath is even superior(and helluva more expensive) than the two choices mentioned above. He packs a better punch than both, though. And has that 2+ save that you're not going to crack open with a powersword, whereas the Libby and Reclusiarch still have to fear AP3, the Libby even more.

 

 

 

Now, regarding your tables(thanks for that work, it looks great):

 

The first table is pretty sense-making. The loadout looks pretty realistic, meaning these kind of tooled up units could be seen on the battlefield(however you are not considering any transports, so the points are off). The numbers show here that the Chaplain + one or two axes deal the most damage (per average...).

 

 

Then, the second table...well, to be honest, I'd be glad to play against an opponent who'd field such units. Those you described as having the maximum damage output are so unrealistic it's almost a bit ridiculous. ;)

 

For example, that 240-250 unit(which is a fair price for DC) has two DC Marines and 6 axe DC marines. When I'd be confronted with such a unit, I'd do what every opponent would: plasma the crap out of it, from every side. Now, you're saying, the new wound allocation rules allow us to us the two unarmed guys as meatshields!

 

Well, not always. Only if they're in front. When you exploded their transport(safe from a raven, and then we're already at 460-ish points) and the smart opponent will try to plasma them from 'behind', were the two other guys are not standing in front, you're :) ed bigtime.

 

In CC....every further loss will break your neck. You are arguing that you are able to take on TEQ? Nah. Grey Knight Terminators will still crush this unit with halberds present(and that's a given) because of the low initiative these guys are striking at. Yes, I'm aware that I'm the guy who mentions the init. ;)

 

 

 

What I'm saying is...don't charge Terminators. Not with a tooled up DC like you suggested. And for MEQ, you don't need axes, PW are mighty fine. For walkers, axes won't do anything, better go with a fist or a hammer here.

 

This is my gripe with your article. You are arguing in a vacuum. You are not considering that a battlefield is more than one unit that gets the charge against one that is far superior to your DC.

 

Then, you are disregarding both the Reclusiarch and Astorath. Both are HQ choices and mandatory when fielding DC(the Rec more than Asto if you don't want a JP), more than a Librarian.

 

 

While anyone who has read one of my casual posts here, the Sanguinary Guard or the DC analysis, knows that I'm a fluff gamer/painter/converter at heart, this is not what I'm arguing about here. Fluff is a personal thing to each and everyone. If you don't wanna use Chaplains, don't.

This post however seems to based on rather limited experience and does not do the Chaplain full justice.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Snorri

[Chaplain Admetus]

Remember though, the axes may be hidden but they can still be sniped out by characters with precision shot/precision strike (found THAT one out the hard way against GK... <_< ). Impressive work, I couldn't have run all that maths without my brain leaking from my ears...

[DominicJ]

My math-fu maybe wrong, but i get 9 vanilla dc and rec killing 11.2 meqs

 

with fnp, thats still 7.47

 

your eight man squad dies at i4 before its axers hit back

 

the reality is, my dc arent pts ltd

they are capacity ltd

a rec, 9 dc and 3 fists in a pod remains my go to.

Perhaps not as efficient, but it gets the job done

 

theres also the matter of losses

i can lose 6 dc but keep 60% of my killing power.

 

Might not work that way, but i have me meat shields.

 

You arent 'wrong', but ya'int right either.

[DominicJ]

As further counter

 

thirty fist dc cost 1350

 

24 fists, 6 normal and a rec cost slightly less.

 

All you proved is chaps are better in big units

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Gotta be quick, leaving on vacation in 2 hours and I should be packing..... I won't be posting as much in the next 3 weeks.

 

I should have wrote up the article with Power Fists. I did not pay close enough attention to them, I just made a tagline about them near then end. The same is still true for them as axes.

 

100pts = 4 Power Fists. The Fist will kill more for you points than a Chaplain, unless you are running more than 15 DCM.

 

130pts = 5 Power Fists. Same result.

 

It is the AP4 on the Chaplain himself that limits the damage output mathhammer-wise.

 

Yes a Blend nets high results, but that same points level dropping the Chaplain and replacing him with his cost in power fists will always kill more.

 

Argument in a vacuum? Absolutely. But so was Jonah Hill in the movie "Moneyball"..... math doesn't lie. Not always the truest, best approach--- but it's gonna tell you something, and usually you should listen.

 

Survivability is a non-issue. The Libby can cast on them without even being joined to them. If he is, then he can refuse all challenges. Whats the worst that could happen? One of your 5 fists get put in the back.... if you notice the number, we're still talking semantics here because they will rip straight on through 10-man MEQ squads no matter how you kit them. When I get more time, I will do a study on the most points-efficient unit of DC that will cause 10 MEQ kills.

 

And Snorri, you completely right the 2nd table is pure silly-- but I popped it in there to make my point. I should have done it with more finesse, using more realistic units compositions. But the raw number of attacks that DC throw out become more valuable when they ignore armor rather than getting re-rerolls, which is the true essence of my argument.

 

And please take my tone lightly! I wrote fast cuz I'm in a hurry but I'm in great mood and not defensive, keep the criticism coming!

[Xenith]

What I'm saying is...don't charge Terminators. Not with a tooled up DC like you suggested. And for MEQ, you don't need axes, PW are mighty fine. For walkers, axes won't do anything, better go with a fist or a hammer here.

6 DC, 6 axes get the charge on a regular SM dread.

 

30 attacks get 20 hits. 20 hits gets you ~3 6's on the damage dice due to S6, which is a wrecked dread.

 

You're still better off with a fist, but it can be done.

 

The most important thing is to think of what the unit will be going after. If it is just MEQ, then go with power swords. The power sword benefits much more from the chaplains reroll to wound, so you way wish to run those stats instead? And the simple sword goes off at I4.

 

Terminators need more specialist treatment to dispose of once again, youre either going to have to sacrifice that 200pt DC unit to kill the 200pt termie unit (poor idea) or kill them with plasma first.

[DominicJ]

But as people have said, we are not always pts ltd

the chaps attacks themselves are irrelevent,

 

one chainsword attack causes .083 meq wounds

the rec adds .104 meq wounds on top.

 

The axe is .333 each way

 

the fist is .417 to .313

 

so a req increases the killing power of a vanilla dc by 125%

an axe by hundred and a fist by seventy five percent.

 

Six vannilas and a rec are cheaper than out kill 13

 

two axes and a rec out kill six axes

 

five fists and a rec out kill 7.8 fists

 

 

my math hammer may be broken

[DominicJ]

Inflextion point, ie where it becomes better to add rec is

5.2 vannilla

3.714 axe

3.851 fist

 

although that doesnt allow for mixed units, losses, or the reclusiarch clubbing anyone to death.

[Dallas Drake]

Hmm, I think all this maths just proves that a good DC squad should have a few axes or a few fists so that it can handle most situations, I don't really see the point for tooling them up as anti 2+ dudes. Chaplains are expensive for what you get (should give you Counter Attack or something if you get charged IMO). If you run your DC in a Drop Pod or a Rhino (prob with bolters) you're likely not getting your points worth out of a Chaplain, I think I'd rather have 5 extra bodies TBH. Also, there is a huge danger with making a unit like DC overly expensive or too one-dimentional, spamming axes might look great on your calculator but in my experience you can only ever use math-hammer as a 'guide' to what 'might' work for you - I know that plans never go right & when your 8 DC all with axes get charged by another <I2 assault unit you'll wish you had some of that I4.

 

Dallas

[Red Fury]

Good work on the tables and math CAG. It makes a good point that has me re-thinking my newest DC members that I am just getting ready to paint up.

The chart doesn't take into account some other intangibles, like you mention the I step, or the Chaplains 4++ or his 2 wounds, or his 15 point PF option or challenges and LOS options too. So, I'm not totally sold on the idea, but my list really needed an extra Elite slot.

I had planned on two power swords and 3 regular guys with a pf wielding chappy.

It seems that a 6 man dc with 3 axes a fist and two regular guys cost a ton less and can kill about the same. There are never any extra points, so maximizing efficiency is important.

I might need to get these guys some axes:

[the jeske]

people forget to mention about the chappy that while yes he is i5 , he is also ap4 due to crozius being turned in to a maul .

 

 

and a libby can take a force lance . +1str ap3 on charge striking at I . awesome weapon for DC too . 8 dudes 1 ax 1 TH 2 lances +HQ with a lance rolls over everything. +it is an excuse to run a LR or SR as transports not just moving gun turrets.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Gotta be quick, leaving on vacation in 2 hours and I should be packing..... I won't be posting as much in the next 3 weeks.

 

I should have wrote up the article with Power Fists. I did not pay close enough attention to them, I just made a tagline about them near then end. The same is still true for them as axes.

 

100pts = 4 Power Fists. The Fist will kill more for you points than a Chaplain, unless you are running more than 15 DCM.

 

130pts = 5 Power Fists. Same result.

 

It is the AP4 on the Chaplain himself that limits the damage output mathhammer-wise.

 

Yes a Blend nets high results, but that same points level dropping the Chaplain and replacing him with his cost in power fists will always kill more.

 

 

What you seem to forget with axes is that they are inferior to Powerfists for what they can do. +1 attack is nice, and S6 is great for 15 points, right? Init 1 is not. At initiative 1, you want some punch in there, S8/9 is that punch you need. 4 attacks with a Powerfist at S9 on the charge is pretty evil against walkers(and you don't need to spam 6 axes to get a satisfying result in combat). S6 is mediocre against walkers at best, and the walker itself will crush 1-2 marines before you strike.

 

That however may be my own opinion.

 

 

 

Argument in a vacuum? Absolutely. But so was Jonah Hill in the movie "Moneyball"..... math doesn't lie. Not always the truest, best approach--- but it's gonna tell you something, and usually you should listen.

 

Didn't see that movie.

Math doesn't lie? Probably not, numbers never do. What math tells us in this case is that 6 poweraxes will achieve more kills than 10 vanilla guys(really? Couldn't see that coming! ;) ). Then, as I said, that argument is worthless since you are agueing in a vacuum. You set up your tooled up über unit in the most advantegeous way for your example.

The charge bonus, the inferior MEQ unit without any kind of self-defense, basically you are comparing mice to gods. Of course the mouse will die when a god stomps it with his sandals enraged. ;)

 

When compared to an equally equipped unit, your strategy crumbles as the DC are basically init1 and will take losses before you reach the enemy. This reduces the number of AP2 attacks and therefore the unit's effectiveness.

 

 

Survivability is a non-issue. The Libby can cast on them without even being joined to them. If he is, then he can refuse all challenges. Whats the worst that could happen? One of your 5 fists get put in the back.... if you notice the number, we're still talking semantics here because they will rip straight on through 10-man MEQ squads no matter how you kit them. When I get more time, I will do a study on the most points-efficient unit of DC that will cause 10 MEQ kills.

 

Well. Let's look at this from another perspective. As soon as your assault squads are engaged in close quarter combat, the Libby is worthless for the DC. Of course you can argue that you could cast the Prescience(sp?) on the DC before you charge with your RAS, but then your assault squad is left without any boni(except the Priest's).

 

While I'm not encouraging anyone to drop the Librarian, I can't see the great benefits over the Reclusiarch to be honest since that psy power is only in shooting(pff, shooting with your DC? Really? ;)) and re-rolls to hit in CC...which the Reclusiarch/Chappy provides as well. And re-rolls to wound.

So Chappy > Libby generally speaking.

 

 

 

And Snorri, you completely right the 2nd table is pure silly-- but I popped it in there to make my point. I should have done it with more finesse, using more realistic units compositions. But the raw number of attacks that DC throw out become more valuable when they ignore armor rather than getting re-rerolls, which is the true essence of my argument.

 

And please take my tone lightly! I wrote fast cuz I'm in a hurry but I'm in great mood and not defensive, keep the criticism coming!

 

I will address the bolded text specifically.

 

I do have quite the impression that your argument is based on a black-white scheme. Either you go with axes, or you get a Reclusiarch/Chaplain for the same point costs. Who said that DC are cheap when tooled up? Give 'em both and you're a happy panda!

Let's say 2 powerweapons for easy MEQ defense, 1 axe and one Powerfist/hammer + Chaplain. Add two or three ablative wound bodies for good measure. I didn't run

the points down, but even if it's expensive...you don't really need more than that. What you can't kill with the Chaplain and the powerweapons you will crush with axe and fist.

 

What I've found most worthy when using DC is to take advantage of every Initiative 'phase'. Chaplain at init 5, then init 4 and then init 1. Lemartes used to go on 7, but now it's 6, that's still pretty good.

Ablative bodies in the front to take incoming hits. More initiative phases equals more kills. :)

 

 

Oh, and I'm not offended in any way by your post, no worries. ;) Please don't read my post with a bad mood as well. I'm German, most people in english-speaking countries think my normal way to say something IS TO YELL LIKE A FREAKIN' MADMAN! :lol:

 

 

 

Well, that's my respond. Enjoy your vacation. :)

 

 

 

Snorri

[knife&fork]

What you seem to forget with axes is that they are inferior to Powerfists for what they can do. +1 attack is nice, and S6 is great for 15 points, right? Init 1 is not. At initiative 1, you want some punch in there, S8/9 is that punch you need. 4 attacks with a Powerfist at S9 on the charge is pretty evil against walkers(and you don't need to spam 6 axes to get a satisfying result in combat). S6 is mediocre against walkers at best, and the walker itself will crush 1-2 marines before you strike.

 

Another case against the axes is that to get the most out of them they have to be paired with a boltpistol. A fist or hammer can be used to full effect together with a bolter. I like the flexibility that relentless bolters give me over the bolt pistols.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Sneaking a quick post before I fall asleep-- just finished a 19 hour car drive. However, all that time on the road gave me a lot to think about.

 

So Chappy > Libby generally speaking.

In terms of HQ choice, Reclusiarch cannot hold a candle to a Librarian. Here's why: A Reclusiarch is a Unit multiplier. A Librarian is an Army multiplier.

 

A Chaplain gets about 2 (maybe 3) good charges in a 5 turn game, starting turn 2 or 3. The Librarian is casting EVERY turn he's alive. While Chaplain is waiting to get his charge moments, the Libby is buffing your shooty elements with rerolls. Better points efficiency over 5 turns.

 

A Chaplain can only buff the unit he's in. Librarian has bubbles of effects, and options. Flexible.

 

Reclusiarch provides melee and wound rerolls on a charge, but must be with DC. A Librarian provides precharge shooting rerolls, charge melee rerolls, AND opponents' turn rerolls, and has a 12" casting bubble to give that to any unit.

 

EXAMPLE: Shoot with rerolls, charge with rerolls and wipe unit (common occurence). Enemy counter-charges them in his turn, You get overwatch rerolls and melee rerolls. (Potential Epistolary-combo: try this with Foreboding active too). Prescience clearly wins here, even if you get stuck-in.... actually, especially if you get stuck-in.

 

ALSO the Librarian has a psychic hood-- now you have a 4+ to cancel maledictions (Enfeeble, Hallucinate and Psychic Shriek come to mind). OH and that hood is 6" bubble, not just Unit.

 

Chaplain gives Fearless? Too bad the 'new' ATSKNF is just fine. And using his 'make fearless' ability means he's not joined with DC... just fails hard at flexibility compared to Librarian.

 

Divination primaris is always useful. But if you get Forewarning, then let's go hunt some TEQ.

 

Reclusiarch with PF is 145pts. Librarian Terminator with stormshield and ForceAx is also 145pts. Survivability? Yeppppppppp (To be fair on this one, yes the standard Libby is fragile--- but if you put him in harm's way, accepting challenges when you shouldn't and things like that, then I can't help you....)

 

Librarian has a Force Weapon. Instant Death option against T5+.... Reclusiarch loses again.

 

Librarian picks codex powers... then swaps for BRB powers at deployment depending on your opponent! MAN is this guy flexible or what? Semper Gumby.

 

Then, as I said, that argument is worthless since you are agueing in a vacuum. You set up your tooled up über unit in the most advantegeous way for your example.

The charge bonus, the inferior MEQ unit without any kind of self-defense, basically you are comparing mice to gods. Of course the mouse will die when a god stomps it with his sandals enraged.

While driving 19 hours and mulling this over, I have to withdraw my comment in 3rd post--- my conclusions are NOT made 'in a vacuum.' Ability to kill MEQ is an extremely standard way of quantifying a Unit's firepower. There are many inherent flaws in it--- but there is a reason MEQ is the 'Gold Standard,' because that is the majority statline of the most popular armies. Also, the MEQ KILLS is ony meaningful in comparison of units of similar points investment, so that efficiency may be examined. It has nothing to do with 'defenseless poor little mice' or anything of the sort. We are comparing apples to apples here. If I compared Predators MEQ kills against DC Meq kills against Mephiston's MEQ kills, it has no meaning because THEN those unit's have different battlefield roles, different survivability, etc etc (apples to oranges). MEQ Killed is an abstraction to provide means to compare efficiency, and hence we are decidedly NOT talking in a vacuum here.

 

I opened the thread to discuss the most point-efficient setups for DC units to kill MEQ. What I see now is my tables were set up wrong. I should have set the groups by "MEQ KILLED" then shown the Unit Selections with their Points-cost that can acheive that many kills. Then you would see that Chaplains are usually too expensive to achieve the same MEQ kills as his cost in PW/PF.

 

What math tells us in this case is that 6 poweraxes will achieve more kills than 10 vanilla guys(really? Couldn't see that coming! laugh.gif )

That is not the significant take-away. -_- The significant take-away is that a Chaplain is 100pts. 3 DC armed with Axes is 105pts. If you take any base-unit of DC of any composition less than 15 DCM already, then adding the 3 Axemen will always improve your kills rather than the Chaplain.

 

Oh and not only do they kill better--- it's also 1 less KP for you enemy to collect.

 

15+ DCM: Take a Chaplain

<15 DCM: Take more PW/PF

 

 

OH and I'm loving this thread, you've got me on my toes thinking about this. But you haven't budged me yet ;)

 

Final thought: "Moneyball" is a true story about how an pro-baseball team kept losing to teams that had millions of dollars more, so they could afford the Superstars. So instead, the small team used economics to value players purely on their ability to get on base and score runs. They were not flashy, they were usually terrible at anything else. But you win by getting runs, and you get runs by getting on base. SO they picked these "terrible" players up for very cheap money-wise..... and end up breaking world records in winning streaks, beating teams who's combined salaries were more than three times theirs.

 

Efficiency happens "in a vacuum." Or rather.... it doesn't. :P

[the jeske]

Let's say 2 powerweapons for easy MEQ defense, 1 axe and one Powerfist/hammer + Chaplain. Add two or three ablative wound bodies for good measure.

+100 pts minimum is not cheap .

 

the points down, but even if it's expensive...you don't really need more than that.

neither you need the chappy . they can stay cheap without the libby or the chappy and do the same job . Again we are talking 100+pts here , if the DC stays the same .

More initiative phases equals more kills.

not when the i5 is ap 4 and against stuff that is sv4+ or lower it doesnt matter .

 

Then, as I said, that argument is worthless since you are agueing in a vacuum.

it will also kill more then 6 dudes with a chappy . there is no vacuum and on the points cost side of the thing the chappy is not free . he costs points they have to come from somewhere taking a chappy for a DC unit is not taking a libby taking a smaller troop section , not having enough points for a SR. Too buff something that is more or less a win more option . the moment when a DC starts killing more then 7 dudes on avarge puting more pts in to it to make it more killy is waste of points.

[Hadron Ka'sel]

I just had a thought in regards to the Chapy or Rec's Crozius. Now yes, on its own its by far the weakest of the power weapons, but then like a thunder hammer its concussive i think the rule is. Which means his attacks can drop the enemy down to I 1 for that round of combat. So say you were to take a unit of Axe wielding lunatics, surely to some degree the Crozius off sets the lack of I that axes and other slow I weapons? Has anyone done anything in regards to how the crozius will affect initiative order?

I'm starting to think that the crozius may be more useful than i previously thought, my only concern is i havnt used one in combat so i don't wholly know how concussive works.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

P.S: Wounded Lemartes would really be able to give the enemy a head ache when it comes to initiative i reckon.

 

Edit: I may have got concussive wrong, is it I1 or WS1?

[TrentL]

I just had a thought in regards to the Chapy or Rec's Crozius. Now yes, on its own its by far the weakest of the power weapons, but then like a thunder hammer its concussive i think the rule is. Which means his attacks can drop the enemy down to I 1 for that round of combat. So say you were to take a unit of Axe wielding lunatics, surely to some degree the Crozius off sets the lack of I that axes and other slow I weapons? Has anyone done anything in regards to how the crozius will affect initiative order?

I'm starting to think that the crozius may be more useful than i previously thought, my only concern is i havnt used one in combat so i don't wholly know how concussive works.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

P.S: Wounded Lemartes would really be able to give the enemy a head ache when it comes to initiative i reckon.

 

Edit: I may have got concussive wrong, is it I1 or WS1?

 

Just read the BRB its I:1.

 

And thats pretty interesting because Chaplains are high I to begin with, and multy attacks and on a 6 they put the wounds where they want ... which could be pretty awesome.