Chaplains and Economics

[SnorriSnorrison]

Sneaking a quick post before I fall asleep-- just finished a 19 hour car drive. However, all that time on the road gave me a lot to think about.

 

So Chappy > Libby generally speaking.

In terms of HQ choice, Reclusiarch cannot hold a candle to a Librarian. Here's why: A Reclusiarch is a Unit multiplier. A Librarian is an Army multiplier.

 

Never argued with that. In my army, I use a Cap'n , Libby as second HQ and Lemartes. :D

 

A Chaplain gets about 2 (maybe 3) good charges in a 5 turn game, starting turn 2 or 3. The Librarian is casting EVERY turn he's alive. While Chaplain is waiting to get his charge moments, the Libby is buffing your shooty elements with rerolls. Better points efficiency over 5 turns.

 

A Chaplain can only buff the unit he's in. Librarian has bubbles of effects, and options. Flexible.

 

Reclusiarch provides melee and wound rerolls on a charge, but must be with DC. A Librarian provides precharge shooting rerolls, charge melee rerolls, AND opponents' turn rerolls, and has a 12" casting bubble to give that to any unit.

 

EXAMPLE: Shoot with rerolls, charge with rerolls and wipe unit (common occurence). Enemy counter-charges them in his turn, You get overwatch rerolls and melee rerolls. (Potential Epistolary-combo: try this with Foreboding active too). Prescience clearly wins here, even if you get stuck-in.... actually, especially if you get stuck-in.

 

ALSO the Librarian has a psychic hood-- now you have a 4+ to cancel maledictions (Enfeeble, Hallucinate and Psychic Shriek come to mind). OH and that hood is 6" bubble, not just Unit.

 

Chaplain gives Fearless? Too bad the 'new' ATSKNF is just fine. And using his 'make fearless' ability means he's not joined with DC... just fails hard at flexibility compared to Librarian.

 

Yup, all that's true...

 

 

Divination primaris is always useful. But if you get Forewarning, then let's go hunt some TEQ.

 

Reclusiarch with PF is 145pts. Librarian Terminator with stormshield and ForceAx is also 145pts. Survivability? Yeppppppppp (To be fair on this one, yes the standard Libby is fragile--- but if you put him in harm's way, accepting challenges when you shouldn't and things like that, then I can't help you....)

 

Librarian has a Force Weapon. Instant Death option against T5+.... Reclusiarch loses again.

 

Nah, the reclusiarch doesn't lose - since you were just saying that it's better to keep the Libby in the back rather than let him join the fight. ;)

 

I see what you mean here. However, I was actually saying that the Librarian loses in the DC compared to the Reclusiarch. I apologise if I didn't make that clear. :rolleyes:

 

The Librarian's powers can give the DC a less powerful Litanies of blood. Re-rolls in shooting is gold for tacs, devs or assault squads with special weapons, and you can be assured that I'm going to Prescience the hell out of anyone who's in my way! For DC, not so much, unless you load up with lots of special shooting weapons, which you shouldn't. I'd rather have the re-roll to hit and wound with my special melee-weapons rather than the re-rolls in the shooting phase. And I'd be ready to pay 150 points for that.

 

 

 

In the end, before drifting off to a pure Chappy/Libby discussion, we should note that both have their place in our armies. Unit-limited buffs from the Chaplain, range-limited buffs for the Librarian. The Librarian is a very flexible choice, no doubt about that. However, he will have the supporting role in 95% of the games. No init boost from FC means that a powersword will give him a bad time(unless your talking TDA, in which case you'd have no JP). the Chaplain can fight and win, especially when he's a Reclusiarch.

 

 

 

 

EXAMPLE: Shoot with rerolls, charge with rerolls and wipe unit (common occurence). Enemy counter-charges them in his turn, You get overwatch rerolls and melee rerolls. (Potential Epistolary-combo: try this with Foreboding active too). Prescience clearly wins here, even if you get stuck-in.... actually, especially if you get stuck-in.

 

I'm picking this one out - the Librarian is a great force multiplier, and this is a great example how it works for shooty units such as Tacticals, or Assault squads with special weapons.

But with DC...what are going to overwatch? Bolt pistols? The occasional Infernus Pistol? Not a good deal IMHO. The part about re-rolls when charged is true though, I found that most annoying when my DC got charged after a succesfull assault...but it's not a great trade-off. Shootier units win the fight before the enemy has reached them with Prescience, avoiding losses.

DC will be struck at init 4 or even init 6, and there will be losses(let's assume they're not attacked by a Tactical squad, but a dedicated Melee unit). The re-rolls are helpful, yes, but might be better off with other units which don't hit MEQ on 3's.

It's situational, of course. However I'd be inclined to cast Prescience on a Tactical Squad rather than DC in case both were charged, only because the Tactical Squad is actually able to do damage in the shooting phase, and in case of....let's say Grey Knights, reduce the number of incoming melee attacks.

 

 

 

Then, as I said, that argument is worthless since you are agueing in a vacuum. You set up your tooled up über unit in the most advantegeous way for your example.

The charge bonus, the inferior MEQ unit without any kind of self-defense, basically you are comparing mice to gods. Of course the mouse will die when a god stomps it with his sandals enraged.

 

While driving 19 hours and mulling this over, I have to withdraw my comment in 3rd post--- my conclusions are NOT made 'in a vacuum.' Ability to kill MEQ is an extremely standard way of quantifying a Unit's firepower. There are many inherent flaws in it--- but there is a reason MEQ is the 'Gold Standard,' because that is the majority statline of the most popular armies.

 

 

Yes, that is true.

However, that's not what I meant when bringing up the whole vacuum thing. What I meant to say is that it's not a very accurate way of defining a unit's strength. Sure, my DC will charge directly through an enemy Tactical Squad without noticing them. A Tactical Squad is a MEQ unit, so my DC are great, right?

No. In these days, a lot of units can do what my DC just did. Send them against units who pack a punch in CC! Other units who can keep up with the DC in melee are what one should measure them by.

Not expecting too many losses when fighting 9 WS 4 S4 attacks is kinda obvious, but not very relevant for the actual battle where there's going to be higher threats that need to be hammer'd by the DC.

 

While I love discussions, I dislike the Math-hammer because of it's highly unrealistic setting. As you said, math doesn't lie. But if it's telling you a different story it might be irrelevant.

 

 

Also, the MEQ KILLS is ony meaningful in comparison of units of similar points investment, so that efficiency may be examined. It has nothing to do with 'defenseless poor little mice' or anything of the sort. We are comparing apples to apples here. If I compared Predators MEQ kills against DC Meq kills against Mephiston's MEQ kills, it has no meaning because THEN those unit's have different battlefield roles, different survivability, etc etc (apples to oranges). MEQ Killed is an abstraction to provide means to compare efficiency, and hence we are decidedly NOT talking in a vacuum here.

 

Well, comparing apples to apples is true, I'm just feeling we are comparing nana's sweet and lovely red apples with the shrinky green and sour ones that are growing from time to time on the tree in the yard. ^^

 

DC against MEQ is like MEQ against Tau, I feel. It's a highly biased view(because 5 DC will take out 5 MEQ, and 10 DC will take out 10 MEQ, etc.) and that's what I mean with vacuum(as explained above).

 

However we are not speaking about the fact that the DC will kill MEQ - we're talking about how many. So...

 

 

I opened the thread to discuss the most point-efficient setups for DC units to kill MEQ. What I see now is my tables were set up wrong. I should have set the groups by "MEQ KILLED" then shown the Unit Selections with their Points-cost that can acheive that many kills. Then you would see that Chaplains are usually too expensive to achieve the same MEQ kills as his cost in PW/PF.

...in a battle situation, right on the table, you'd have your DC set up in order to get the charge. Due to whatever poor rolls of yours you end up 2" short of the enemy. Now, your 2-3 axe unit can be outmanouevred and denied the 'safety' of wound allocation. Let's assume that you take some losses and you end up with one axe and some normal DC members. The axe attacks are now insignificant to deal the damage you expect it to be when charging the enemy. The same unit with a Chaplain has a good chance of actually dealing 5 axe attacks in the same charge.

 

What Chaplains do is to add resilience to a normally 'fragile' (Blood Angels' POV ;) ) unit by decreasing the need of many special weapons. The higher the losses among your tooled up unit without a Chaplain, the smaller is the amount of damage they will deal out. While this is true for the Chaplain's unit, it still has the greater damage potential with all the re-rolls.

Smaller squads dealing out more damage - that's the philosophy I'm living and fighting by. So far, it has worked very well!

 

 

 

What math tells us in this case is that 6 poweraxes will achieve more kills than 10 vanilla guys(really? Couldn't see that coming! laugh.gif )

That is not the significant take-away. [...] The significant take-away is that a Chaplain is 100pts. 3 DC armed with Axes is 105pts. If you take any base-unit of DC of any composition less than 15 DCM already, then adding the 3 Axemen will always improve your kills rather than the Chaplain.

 

15+ DCM: Take a Chaplain

<15 DCM: Take more PW/PF

Well, that's true assuming you get into the fray unharmed. How often was that actually the case? Again bringing up the vacuum thing, it's pretty unrealistic. Every loss amongst your poweraxes will hurt your efficiency, not so much when you have the Chaplain.

 

I used to field 5 DC with Lemartes and JP. Kitted out with 2 PWs, those cost me about 300-350 points, depending on more bodies or not. Lemartes' and the Powerweapons are what's actually important here. More bodies are more meatshields. 2 Powerweapons and Lemmy himself, more I didn't need to get rid of Thunderwolves, Ork Nobz and of course, MEQ, be it Grey Knights or Grey Hunters.

Now, adding a fist to the mix seems inevitable since Lemmy has lost his nice powerweapon, but still, he's a nasty guy and makes the whole unit nasty. Smaller squads are also often underestimated and less shot at than bigger units.

 

 

OH and I'm loving this thread, you've got me on my toes thinking about this. But you haven't budged me yet ;)

 

Final thought: "Moneyball" is a true story about how an pro-baseball team kept losing to teams that had millions of dollars more, so they could afford the Superstars. So instead, the small team used economics to value players purely on their ability to get on base and score runs. They were not flashy, they were usually terrible at anything else. But you win by getting runs, and you get runs by getting on base. SO they picked these "terrible" players up for very cheap money-wise..... and end up breaking world records in winning streaks, beating teams who's combined salaries were more than three times theirs.

 

Efficiency happens "in a vacuum." Or rather.... it doesn't. :lol:

 

 

Well, I'm certainly enjoying this coversation. ;)

 

Ah, I see what you mean here. More bang for your buck. And, in a way, 40k can be seen in a similar way as baseball(although I'm not a fan of the sport) - the limited field/gaming board, movement on certain lines(not for the guys with the big leather-fists, right?) and their ability to achieve the goals(run around a rectangle to get some points...).

You could argue that better players are meant to win more often, and now you should add the 40k 'variable': models get removed from play. A team is great if it has great reserves to deal with injuries and other drop outs from the regular play. It has to be able to cope with losses during the season.

 

DC have to be able to deal with incoming fire. They will draw attention, some DC units more, some less, but in the end, they will. The more men you lose, the less effective your unit is. The Chaplain is the one that copes with these losses. He increases the chance of high damage at a low body count, when you're already whittled down by small arms fire, plasma fire, templates of any AP3 kind, or rending shots.

 

 

That's just me blabbering away what I've learned when fielding DC. I don't think that it has changed with the new edition. :)

 

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Snorri

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I do have quite the impression that your argument is based on a black-white scheme. Either you go with axes, or you get a Reclusiarch/Chaplain for the same point costs. Who said that DC are cheap when tooled up? Give 'em both and you're a happy panda!

Let's say 2 powerweapons for easy MEQ defense, 1 axe and one Powerfist/hammer + Chaplain. Add two or three ablative wound bodies for good measure. I didn't run

the points down, but even if it's expensive...you don't really need more than that. What you can't kill with the Chaplain and the powerweapons you will crush with axe and fist.

Okay I've got my working theorem down now.

This is the new and improved "2nd Table" that I should have put in the original post.

A Chaplain is 100pts, but 3 DCM with Axes are 105pts. The 3 Axe-DCM will yield more MEQ killed on a charge than the buff from the Chaplain, when added to a 'base' DCM of any size/composition. They will yield FAR more MEQ kills if you receive a charge.

CAVEAT: If DC is 15+ men, then Chaplain is better.

CAVEAT: If all-3 'Chaplain Replacers' take swords, then the Chaplain <might> be marginally better on the charge, but still way worse at receiving one.

So you see, you can nearly pull it off even when just using Power Swords, which invalidates the Initiative proposal just a touch.

Also DC without a Chaplain means they won't be "redirected" with a challenge-- I agree, Fists are definitely strong espcially for Character hunting since they won't be 'hidden' away in a challenge.

I brought the issue to light because many army lists using Chaplains will be invariably stronger without them. They just aren't efficient-- and I'm trying to help the BA community recognize that 6th edition has made Chaplains poor selections for economical reasons.

What Chaplains do is to add resilience to a normally 'fragile' (Blood Angels' POV) unit by decreasing the need of many special weapons. The higher the losses among your tooled up unit without a Chaplain, the smaller is the amount of damage they will deal out. While this is true for the Chaplain's unit, it still has the greater damage potential with all the re-rolls.

AHhhh You score a major point here, I follow your logic. I just think the top-left corner of the above table argue back for me on that, and the 'taking casualties' thing. The unit won't BEGIN that size--- but if that's all that makes it, it's still better.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Great analysis so far and very though provoking! However, in regards to the new table, I am still a bit skeptical. What you are arguing is damage output. While the math definitely supports 3 axes doing more damage to MEQ than 1 chaplain, I can't help but notice it is only around 1 MEQ kill better which really isn't much. The chaplain gives the unit 2 extra wounds, which is two 4++ invulnerability saves (or rather 1 useable wound because we don't want chappy dying!). The real question arises is if the chappy is worth an HQ slot to make the death co only slightly more survivable.

 

Regardless, both sides of the argument have merit and I'm having a hard time choosing if a chappy is worth it or not! I guess it all depends on the rest of list and how well death co will synergies with other units.

[Morollan]

I just had a thought in regards to the Chapy or Rec's Crozius. Now yes, on its own its by far the weakest of the power weapons, but then like a thunder hammer its concussive i think the rule is. Which means his attacks can drop the enemy down to I 1 for that round of combat. So say you were to take a unit of Axe wielding lunatics, surely to some degree the Crozius off sets the lack of I that axes and other slow I weapons? Has anyone done anything in regards to how the crozius will affect initiative order?

I'm starting to think that the crozius may be more useful than i previously thought, my only concern is i havnt used one in combat so i don't wholly know how concussive works.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Problem is that you need to cause an unsaved wound in order to reduce that model to I1. Most models will be dead at that point anyway. Multi-wound models will usually have a save better than 4+ which makes wounding them in the first place tricky at best.

 

In short, the change to the Crozius is a complete nerf to the offensive power of chaplains.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Great analysis so far and very though provoking! However, in regards to the new table, I am still a bit skeptical. What you are arguing is damage output. While the math definitely supports 3 axes doing more damage to MEQ than 1 chaplain, I can't help but notice it is only around 1 MEQ kill better which really isn't much. The chaplain gives the unit 2 extra wounds, which is two 4++ invulnerability saves (or rather 1 useable wound because we don't want chappy dying!). The real question arises is if the chappy is worth an HQ slot to make the death co only slightly more survivable.

Regardless, both sides of the argument have merit and I'm having a hard time choosing if a chappy is worth it or not! I guess it all depends on the rest of list and how well death co will synergies with other units.

No its not just 'slightly' more damage output. Its also MUCH more stable output. Here's the exact same table, only this time, the Unit is GETTING charged:

As you can see, not even close.

So pretty much the only time you can reliably use a Chaplain is when you're loaded into a transport with assault ramps, or if somehow you can guarantee you'll be getting that charge.

And a Chaplain is adding that Kill point. I won't talk about the Reclusiarch again, I've already covered that you shouldn't wase your time with one since Librarians in the same slot are better and cheaper. Take a second Librarian before you ever take a Reclusiarch.

And the Chap doesn't provide 2 more wounds--- he is 2 wounds, or you could get 3 wounds from the additional DCM. Also, the Chap doesn't have FnP so his 4++ isn't so super great.

[DominicJ]

Just throwing it out there, but my excel math hammer does Hammernators, TEQs, MEQs, FEQs, GEQs and OEKs

 

All I change is shots, BS, strength and AP

 

I might give added weight to MEQs, but I grab everything.

[Drunken Angel]

Lemartes is an upgrade and doesnt add a kill point, Snorri only takes Lemartes in his DC he is pretty staunch on that.

 

Thank you very much CAG and Snorri this has been one of the best in depth analysis of a unit and its buffs in a long time I am very gratefull.

Full credit guys thanks again

[SnorriSnorrison]

So pretty much the only time you can reliably use a Chaplain is when you're loaded into a transport with assault ramps, or if somehow you can guarantee you'll be getting that charge.

 

And a Chaplain is adding that Kill point. I won't talk about the Reclusiarch again, I've already covered that you shouldn't wase your time with one since Librarians in the same slot are better and cheaper. Take a second Librarian before you ever take a Reclusiarch.

 

And the Chap doesn't provide 2 more wounds--- he is 2 wounds, or you could get 3 wounds from the additional DCM. Also, the Chap doesn't have FnP so his 4++ isn't so super great.

 

 

Yes, being charged is always a problem for our assault units, that's why we have special equipment to let them go anywhere. For the sake of the argument, I didn't mention them before, but let's do this. If an incoming charge is inevitable, I'd have to decide wether to cast Prescience on my DC or shootier units to reduce the amount of incoming melee attacks.

 

1. Rhinos, Razorbacks:

Not your favourite assault vehicle anymore. Period. Having a black Rhino/Razorback, but that's about it.

Moving 24 inches is nice, needing another 2 turns to be able to assault is not. It's like moving in slow motion. Not good for an assault unit.

 

2. Drop Pods:

These can work, but be careful. As we've seen, your not getting any benefits if you land directly at the enemy's most shooty unit and get assaulted with 3 DC marines left. Load op on bolters(not the best idea...) or land 18" away. Your choice. After you land, your DC is pretty slow.

 

3. Land Raiders:

Assault vehicles, best armoured vehicle in the game. Now with Hull points. Get your DC where you want them, assault. Take a Chaplain. You want to. ;)

 

4. Stormraven:

Most interesting choice with the new rules. Unless your opponent loads up on Aegis gunlines(which, in a normal game, is unlikely), your Raven is going to be unharmed throughout the game. Boost in position, pop a transport, unload DC next turn and wreak havoc amongst your weakling enemy troops. :P

The best thing about the SR: You can embark with JPs, so Lemartes can be taken over the regular chappie, which he should.

 

 

5. Jump Packs:

Viable again. No forced movement means you've got some serious assault potential there. I mean it. I usually don't care what they cost, a DC with JP is the most terrible composition you could fight against. They have the biggest chance to get the charge(along with the SR) and therefore do all the nasty things I've described in earlier posts. They wipe the floor with almost everything. No bolters needed to make an impact(although it's cool to have them on Fist/hammer marines), HoW is optional and not really needed. Load up on swords, fists and axes, you got your 400 points well invested. Expensive? Not when you can tear the flanks or the heavily armoured center of any assault apart in one bloody strike.

 

And of course, with JP, you're almost stupid not to take Lemartes in there.

 

As Drunken Angel said, I'm using Lemartes only in my DC. His benefits are still(even without the PW) worth the points over the Chaplain and he's cheaper than a Reclusiarch with JP. Very nice special rules, Fnp! and FC!(two things that the normal Chappy doesn't have) and the possibility to strike with S8 on the charge. Ap4, but whatevs, with 8 attacks, you're bound to get a unsaved wound when re-rolling to hit and to wound at Initiative 6.

 

Let this float in your head for a second. He still is damn awesome. 8 attacks, S8, initiative 6, re-rolling to-hit and to-wound rolls. And then strikes his deadly retinue. In my eyes, he is the best character killer after Mephiston, who has the benefit of a force-weapon.

 

 

 

 

DC still rule with JP. They did in 5th, no matter what codex version. They also do in 6th and the Chaplains, Reclusiarchs and the :cuss ing Guardian of the Lost are, in my opinion, the way to go when you're planning to get the charge.

 

 

 

 

Snorri

[Dallas Drake]

Great read, thank you CitadelArmyGuy & SnorriSnorrison! I can totally see where you are both coming from with this guys. One thing to consider, DC with axes damage output will decrease as the unit takes wounds. Unless you get punked in a challenge, place your Chaplain right at the front of your DC or plasma rolls a 6 to hit you're going to keep your Chaplain alive & keep getting those re-rolls until the unit is wiped out, plus Lemartes wants takes a wound! I have been going backwards & forwards in my head on this issue & I think both of you are right, each option is a valid way to run DC

 

Unless your opponent loads up on Aegis gunlines(which, in a normal game, is unlikely), your Raven is going to be unharmed throughout the game.

 

Enemy Flyers?

 

IIRC you can only have one Aegis? Also, don't underestimate normal shooting, stuff that's twin-linked or firing enough shots will cause a Storm Raven issues, yes it's 1/6 to hit but it will attract a lot of attention. I'm yet to get past turn 5 with my SR still alive ^_^

 

Dallas

[DominicJ]

How much S6 shooting is there?

Because one in 36 of them is going to hit and glance, and if there is a 4+ jink, one in 72 will glance.

[Brother Weasel]

necron gauss:)

[Zynk Kaladin]

DC still rule with JP. They did in 5th, no matter what codex version. They also do in 6th and the Chaplains, Reclusiarchs and the ;) ing Guardian of the Lost are, in my opinion, the way to go when you're planning to get the charge.

 

I want to to this... nay I YEARN to do this, but my buddy I primarily play against is IG and smacking tanks isn't very thematic or exciting. His billion squads of "space marines" with cardboard armor holding meltaguns and plasmaguns (aka veterans) ride around the field in their metal boxes with their middle fingers out.

 

I would love to throw this squad at Khârn and some beserkers and watch both sides rip each other's faces off or maybe a ;) huge blob of orks. Oooh baby...

[DominicJ]

After some serious math hammering, i'm sticking to my guns

it may seem more efficient to do it differently, but in the real world, i think my rec and three fists will wipe out out a meq squad, and the 6 vanilla meat shields will keep them alive long enough to do it often

[Black Memories]

Just play tested jump pack DC with 1 th, 2 ccw and 4 power axes against orks in 1850. Killed a squad of nob bikerz, 2 squads of boys, and a warboss (who killed them off). The power axes were amazing. This unit was by far the MVP of the match. Against some stuff (purifiers/paladins) they will struggle, but against everything else they're going to at LEAST give as good as they get. Also it's definitely accurate to say that they don't need hammer of wrath. Mobility was always an issue with the DC in 5th, being able to send them where you want them in 6th is fantastic. They were a game changer and had mephiston-like point returns with no chaplain. I probably won't be taking a chaplain now either (and in 5th I was a huge lemartes fan.)

 

The jump packs being effective again was probably nearly as impressive to me as the power axes as well. Having 12 inch movement with no transport required was fantastic. It was easy to forget how good they could be with jump packs with the rage limitations and having to deal with losing turns of movements due to transports. Yes 15 points a model is expensive, but the alternative is putting them in an assault transport which is MORE expensive. The 105 for the jump packs for 7 death company is really only expensive in comparison to rhinos or drop pods, which are not good transports for them in this edition in my opinion.

[BigDunc]

Great analysis by both sides.

 

A couple things I noticed, not sure if they were addressed at some point:

 

When it comes to changing established beliefs, mathhamer is usually not sufficient. Mathhammer is a vacuumous approach to tactics, but it kinda has to be. There's just far too many variables and battlefield situations to take into account. That means you take mathhammer with a grain of salt which means people shouldn't nitpick too much.

 

Prescience allows units to reroll shooting and close combat hits, hence the wording "reroll all failed To Hit rolls." It also lasts two close combat phases, so it would be interesting to see what the mathhamer is for rerolling to hit for two phases versus rerolling to hit and wound in a single phase. Also, Blessings, as well as Maledictions, can be 'cast' upon units in close combat.

 

When it comes to taking casualties before striking at a lower initiative, it would seem more beneficial to have a greater number of models instead of rerolls to hit and wound, especially for models with FNP (which works against most power weaponry). It's worth mathhammering.

 

I remember seeing at one point, I think on Stelek's blog, that Deathcult Assassins benefit more from Power Mauls than Power Axes. Could the same be true of Death Company? Another job for mathhammer.

[Morticon]

Mauls are only better than pws Vs. T6+ - vs. Axes, its even worse.

[John Rainbow]

While all axes seems to be awesome sauce in CC, it might not necessarily be the best option to take over a character for the points. Character shenanigans like challenges, LoS, etc have not been considered. These can (and sometimes do) make a huge difference. Any character is not just about combat effectiveness.

[Dallas Drake]

Mauls are only better than pws Vs. T6+ - vs. Axes, its even worse.

 

True. Plus most things that are T6+ have better than a 4+ save. Take a Hive Tyrant with a 2+ (which I'm seeing lots), axes on the charge win hands down here.

[Drunken Angel]

Mauls are only better than pws Vs. T6+ - vs. Axes, its even worse.

 

True. Plus most things that are T6+ have better than a 4+ save. Take a Hive Tyrant with a 2+ (which I'm seeing lots), axes on the charge win hands down here.

While its nice to think an axe might upset a tyrant a krak grenade stuffed down his throat is probably the more realisitc option (mental image Gorman and Vasquez in the ducting on Aliens 2). I hope I will be able to shoot Tyrants with aeroplanes not send my guys in with axes.

[TrentL]

What about putting Axes instead of Swords with the Chappy?

 

And I get that if you get the charge and you don't lose units the Axes are better but what happens when you start to lose some of marines?

 

Personally I always field a small JP DC w/ Lemartes its NEVER failed me, and the way I roll misses I need those rerolls.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

What about putting Axes instead of Swords with the Chappy?

 

And I get that if you get the charge and you don't lose units the Axes are better but what happens when you start to lose some of marines?

 

Personally I always field a small JP DC w/ Lemartes its NEVER failed me, and the way I roll misses I need those rerolls.

 

 

Well, you are certainly entitled to your selections and opinions-- all I can do is show my evidence, make my case and attempt to help everyone's list-building.

 

I never said and I never will say Chaplains are bad.

 

I simply made the case that you can make your DC better (IMO) for the same points without using one. I also say Reclusiarchs are bad when compared to Librarians.

 

But Lemartes has his place (vs certain armies) and Astorath has his place (for multi-DC builds)

 

Bottom-line is We all want to promote Blood Angel players and help our community with the best advice , tips/tricks/tactics and list-building advice that we can. We're all on the same team here on the forums. :lol: I'm just tryin to help :mellow:

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I'm glad this discussion has come up because I was considering putting a jump pack Death Company with my Codex Bikers. As everyone is aware bikes are great when moving and shooting, but they rather suck in assault. With jump packs the Death Company can keep up with them, the FnP means they're about as tough as bikes against most weapons, and they beat face like a very face beaty thing.

 

I eBayed the Chaplain with jump pack model (always wanted it) so I'll take it as a Reclusiarch for my mandatory HQ to lead the squad. I intend to take a couple of axes and a fist in a ten man squad. Strength 5 and massed re-rolls is probably a reliable way of killing MEQs without needing power swords.

[Black Memories]

Never was much of a fan of letting your opponents take massed saves. I'd prefer to deny the ability for my opponent to get the hot hand if I can. That said with 10 Death Company I'd probably be in the camp of loading up on power axes over taking a chaplain now that I've play tested it. It's a significant difference. Also not having challenges and an extra kill point on the table really can mess stuff up. Also taking the chaplain is a bullet sponge is completely contradictory to examples of why the chaplain is effective, The only thing you'd want him to soak up are wounds that FNP won't get, like lascannon or missile launcher shots. The problem with that is that i don't want my 100+ point model taking an instant death shot in the face, that negates every combat advantage scenario that is attempting to be run here. So no that isn't really a role the chaplain should be filling.

 

Again, I wasn't sold to start with, now that I play tested I can say unless it's lemartes, I'm definitely not remotely considering a chaplain, I'd rather pay for the special weapons.

 

The real question that isnt being unanswered here isn't what are you doing with the 100 points the chaplain costs IN THE DEATH COMPANY, they should have special weapons now anyways, it's more worth it than ever. It's what are you doing with the 100 points that ISNT in the death company. Are you telling me a chaplain is going to give more to my army than 2 multi melta attack bikes? Is he going to be better than a librarian? I realize the librarian argument is already in progress, but that's for HQ selection. If the death company doesn't NEED a chaplain, why take one? What are you fighting that you NEED liturgies of blood to kill? If it's that dangerous shoot it or send in assault terminators, or just don't fight it. Run the math (or play test it) and you'll quickly figure out that 7+ death company with 4+ axes and a TH is a good matchup for nearly any opponent you're going to fight barring purifiers and paladins at full strength. And if they don't match up well it's ok, they're only about 330 points (10 more expensive than assault squad + priest) and support them with some firepower or a multi charge to make it an unfair fight, much in the same way it's unfair for the death company to charge a tactical squad.

 

That math, while in a vacuum, is dead on. Those death company are better without a chaplain for the same cost. The question isn't does it help my death company more to have a chaplain in the unit, the question is does it help my ARMY to have a chaplain in the death company unit. The answer, in my opinion after testing, is no. There are many things you can get for 100-155 points that are far more effective, no matter what your army build is, than a chaplain in your death company.

 

For the record, when I first read this post I was sternly against the idea of a no chaplain death company until I play tested it. I saw the difference immediately when I simply tried it and looked for it. I'd invite you to at least try it.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Of course with the new rapid fire rules jump pack Death Company with boltguns are also a mobile shooty squad.

[Mezkh]

In favor;

 

-Chaplains are very nice challenge monkeys.

-Sometimes you can take both special CCWs and a Chaplain, they aren't mutually exclusive.

-Takes up less space in the transport vehicles

-Chaplain can split off and go do something else.

-In the case of the Reclusiarch, the HQ is dead points anyway.