I want your opinions on a few Space Wolves questions

[Emptyedens]

Just a couple of questions that have been floating around in my head about the fluff.

 

1.) Do the Wolves worship the emperor and Russ as Deities or more like people to aspire too.

 

2.) Are the Space Wolves as disdainful of normal humans as other chapters seem to be?

 

3.)

A.) Do you think that we have several "lost" great companies around that are self sufficant?

 

B.) IF so do you think that numbers wise we would be as strong as a legion of old and maybe this is why we don't like Terra poking its nose into our business?

 

C.) If the above is true do you think it was Russ's way of seeming to go along with the Codex Astartes while still keeping the Wolves able to do the job that the Emperor set us too?

 

4.) Do you think the Wolves would ever go renegade against the Lords of Terra. Not to chaos but just finally sick of all the needless genocide and religion. Maybe starting a rebellion?

 

5.) Are we truly the only "good guy" chapter? What I mean is that we don't kill lightly and we do so only with good reason. In the fluff it seems that we do what we think is good and that we question and refuse any orders from Terra that we don't agree with.

 

So what do you guys think?

[littlbitz]

Hmm...

My opinions:

 

1. They don't worship the Emperor, but do see him as the only one to ever best Leman Russ in combat, and recognize him as a great warrior.

 

2. I think they have a soft spot for the humanity they are sworn to protect.

 

3a. Yes

3b. I doubt that large, as we were never a very large legion. Those "lost companies" would probably usually number somewhat less than a Great Company, depending upon how they manage to recruit more Space Wolves. They may even fill their ranks with humans to assist them.

 

4. No, unless the High Lords of Terra completely lost it, and certain members of the Inquisition were able to convince them of such nonsense. Even then, if the Wolves were forced to go renegade, I am sure that they would remain loyal to the Emperor, even if not to the High Lords.

 

5. No, I think there are other Chapters out there that would be considered "good guys" the Ultramarines come to mind.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Just a couple of questions that have been floating around in my head about the fluff.

 

1.) Do the Wolves worship the emperor and Russ as Deities or more like people to aspire too.

 

2.) Are the Space Wolves as disdainful of normal humans as other chapters seem to be?

 

3.)

A.) Do you think that we have several "lost" great companies around that are self sufficant?

 

B.) IF so do you think that numbers wise we would be as strong as a legion of old and maybe this is why we don't like Terra poking its nose into our business?

 

C.) If the above is true do you think it was Russ's way of seeming to go along with the Codex Astartes while still keeping the Wolves able to do the job that the Emperor set us too?

 

4.) Do you think the Wolves would ever go renegade against the Lords of Terra. Not to chaos but just finally sick of all the needless genocide and religion. Maybe starting a rebellion?

 

5.) Are we truly the only "good guy" chapter? What I mean is that we don't kill lightly and we do so only with good reason. In the fluff it seems that we do what we think is good and that we question and refuse any orders from Terra that we don't agree with.

 

So what do you guys think?

 

1. I would say the Wolves praise Russ and the Emperor as something to aspire to, while knowing their limits. They do worship both Russ and the Emperor in their own, tribal ways though, but more as measuring sticks than beings able/willing to intervene in their lives.

 

2. not at all. They value those who fight beside them in battle, and those who keep their oaths. I dont see the Wolves being friendly with the overly dogmatic or the more brutal beliefs of mankind, as the Wolves believe it is their job to protect humanity.

 

3a. Yes

3b. No, i would say we are NOWHERE near legion size. at most, i would put the Chapter itself around the 2.5k mark (my logic for this is in the sticky dicussion of this), and if we gathered all lsot companies i would wager up no more than 5k. We dont like Terra being nosey because it isnt the place to judge us. We were created by the Emperor, and only he and Russ can judge us.

3c. i believe that, as Guilliman was aware of Russ's opposition to the Codex, that after Russ created the Wolf Brothers, Guilliman turned his attentions elsewhere. The Wolves had fought through the Heresy and, with the Ultramarines, led the Imperial counter attacks of the Scouring. I dont believe what was left of the Wolves after that was a significant military threat for Guilliman to persue the complete dismantling of the Wolves. Also, a measure of respect between Russ and Guilliman (this last sentence is pure speculation)

 

4. I dont believe so. During periods of instability in the Imperium, when the High Lords had completely lost the heads, the Wolves (and other marine chapters) simply scaled back their activities and patrolled/protected the surrounding systems. I think that for the Wolves to take direct military action against the High Lords as a whole it would take a sizable alliance of Marine, Guard, Navy and Inquisition forces.

 

5. No, there are a few other Chapters that focus on humanity as much as they focus on the Imperium as a whole, such as the Ultramrines, Salamanders and Raven Guard.

 

hope this helps.

 

WLK

[Quillen]

Why did you ask questions you already know the answer to? All of those are answered in the fluff. All of them. Heck most in the new rule book.

 

Lost Companies are not legion size.

 

But we do have fluff of a fleet of battle barged returning to Fenris to save the day. So a Fleet of battle barges, meaning plural barges. So we have atleast a couple of companies big enough to use a Battle barge chich holds 3 companies if I remember right.

 

Still a lost company would not be massive. Maybe 120-180 peeps max. And of course as small as you want. With time away from Fenris and not recruting from other worlds your going to get smaller and smaller.

 

 

There is a white dwarf that offers info on lost companies. And they are still loyal to Russ, just ot a wolf Lord. Some have fallen thou.

[dragon950]

1. Only as how great they are and the fact that they are made from them. But not as gods.

2. Only if they have the will to fight. Humans soliders that just give up aren't worth our time.

3. No.

It all depends on what you mean by that really. Do they make their own ammo, no. Do they replenish their ranks, no. Do they take humans to be serfs, maybe. You never hear about lost companies rejoining the wolves because I would hazard a guess that they are all wiped out. There is no way that any space wolves alive would equal a legion strength. As far as C goes, I have no idea what you are askign there.

4. No, not unless Russ himself came back and told them to do it. Space marines in large numbers aren't allowed on terra anymore, so a fleet of ships would set off alot of alarms.

5. Not sure that there is a good guy legion, but the spave wolves have stood up more for the common people more than other chapters have.

[Forté]

I will only put answers to the first two as the third doesn't really have an answer.

 

1) The saying 'For Russ and the Allfather' goes along way to explain it. Russ first and foremost. He is their Primarch and his geneseed is in all Space Wolves. He is the greatest Wolf there has ever been and will always be the Great Wolf when he returns.

The Emperor created the primarchs and is respected as such.

I do not believe that ether are worshiped as deities. They have great sagas and I'm sure these are told to all fenrisians.

 

2) There are two Chapters who have not lost their connection with humanity. The Salamanders and us. It's often the cause of clashes between us and those who believe themselves to be above reprimand like the Inquisition.

[hendrik]

agree with most besides 3A; a self sufficient lost company simply doesn't exist. lost compagnies are expluded from gaining fenrisian recruits and as such new members. prime example of this is the 13th company who, in time, will cease to exist simply because every member will die.

note that this doesn't mean a lost company can't repair it's fleet, restock their ammo etc. even the 13th manages to do this. ergo, a lost company can be self sufficient to the point where they need new recruits, then they start to run into troubles. luckely for them casualtie rate against non-marine equivalents are usually on the low side (such as against rebel guardsman without deamonic or chaos marine help), allowing them to continue their path for an extended period.

[Emptyedens]

Why did you ask questions you already know the answer to? All of those are answered in the fluff. All of them. Heck most in the new rule book.

 

Lost Companies are not legion size.

 

But we do have fluff of a fleet of battle barged returning to Fenris to save the day. So a Fleet of battle barges, meaning plural barges. So we have atleast a couple of companies big enough to use a Battle barge chich holds 3 companies if I remember right.

 

Still a lost company would not be massive. Maybe 120-180 peeps max. And of course as small as you want. With time away from Fenris and not recruting from other worlds your going to get smaller and smaller.

 

 

There is a white dwarf that offers info on lost companies. And they are still loyal to Russ, just ot a wolf Lord. Some have fallen thou.

 

I asked because I want others opinions on the fluff. If you didn't want to answer or take part in the discussion you didn't have to. I like getting input from other members like Littlebitz and such.

 

Maybe I should clarify my question, what I wanted to know is if anyone thought that there could be a legions worth of space wolves in existence because great companies can leave. I vaguely remember in the fluff somewhere about a lost company who being so far from Fenris settled another planet and recruited from there.

[Valerian]

agree with most besides 3A; a self sufficient lost company simply doesn't exist. lost compagnies are expluded from gaining fenrisian recruits and as such new members. prime example of this is the 13th company who, in time, will cease to exist simply because every member will die.

note that this doesn't mean a lost company can't repair it's fleet, restock their ammo etc. even the 13th manages to do this. ergo, a lost company can be self sufficient to the point where they need new recruits, then they start to run into troubles. luckely for them casualtie rate against non-marine equivalents are usually on the low side (such as against rebel guardsman without deamonic or chaos marine help), allowing them to continue their path for an extended period.

 

hendrik, in the article below, written by Andy Chambers in WD245 (June 2000), the author indicates that long-term viability for a Lost Company is indeed viable, given sufficient geneseed and technology. Because Great Companies are known to be completely self-sufficient (when appropriate Priests (Iron, Rune, and Wolf) have been attached), I believe it is indeed possible for them to carry on as a compltely independent "mini-Chapter" indefinitely.

 

 

Lone Wolves

 

Evidence concerning the existence of the so-called Space Wolves 'lost companies'. This report compiled by the Emperor's most humble servant, scribe Chambers, M41.

 

Honored brethren, in accordance with your request I have instigated an investigation into the matters raised by the Ecclesiarchy envoy, Balthasar Van Heppel. Thus far I have conducted a level six probe into the Libraris Omnia on Terra and made a regrettably brief visit to the Space Wolves home world of Fenris. The specific charges made by Van Heppel, of iconoclasm and heresy within the Chapter, were most directly addressed at Fenris where I sought audience with the current Great Wolf, Logan Grimnar. A giant of a man, even for a Space Marine, the Great Wolf presents himself as a simple, blunt and irreverent warrior - frequently using the basic psychological technique of deflection, laughing uproariously (and intimidatingly) in response to any question he does not wish to address. However my overwhelming impression was of a shrewd and quick-witted leader disguising himself as a barbarian.

 

Although the Great Wolf was suspicious of my motives for visiting Fenris, he seemed affable enough once I had joined him in consuming several kegs of locally made winter-ale (after taking a suitably strong dose of anti-toxicants naturally). My discussions with Logan Grimnar, the subsequent tour he provided of the more accessible areas of the Space Wolves Chapter-fortress, and my own nocturnal investigations of the less accessible areas sufficed to convince me of the following: the Space Wolves, like many of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, honor the Emperor and their Primarch above all others. They worship the Emperor as the greatest man who ever lived, all-father to both the Imperium and themselves. This is significant because they do not invest Him with the divine attributes commonly espoused by the Ecclesiarchy.

 

While this could technically be termed a Heresy of the third degree, the fact remains that the Space Wolves' faith in the Emperor and Leman Russ remains stronger than in many of the hives and worlds across the Imperium. I found countless shrines, inspirational images and devotional offerings with The Fang (the Space Wolves' fortress), often of a somewhat barbaric nature it is true but nothing which would indicate anything other than an unswerving dedication to the Emperor of Mankind. I believe tht what rankles the Ecclesiarcy is the manner in which their devotion is expressed (i.e. outside their auspices).

 

Of greater interest than Van Heppel's accusations is certain information gained from the Libraris Omnia. The servitor-probe was programmed to retrieve all available data on the Space Wolves Chapter and turned up some unexpected fragments on the so-called 'lost companies' of the Space Wolves. To place things in context, the Space Wolves' lack of successor Chapters has often been noted as unusual given its status as a first founding legion with a history extending back to the legendary days of the Great Crusade.

 

As is well-known, after the Horus Heresy the great Space Marine Legions of that time were broken up into the smaller Chapters of today. In this way no single Chapter Master controlled the terrible power of an entire legion. However, despite this and the great size attributed to the Space Wolves Legion during the Crusades (Dionerius stated that the Space Wolves "stood 10,000 strong at the gates of Thranx") no successor Chapters are listed for the Space Wolves. This is a mystery I believe I can now shed some light onto. As may be observed from the accompanying fragments, each one tells the story of a group of Space Wolves who appear to have separated themselves from the Chapter. In some cases, as with the 'Sons of Russ', this could merely be artistic license on the writer's part but in each case no corroborating evidence could be found for the Space Wolves Chapter being involved. Amongst most Space Marine Chapters such behavior would be viewed as a fatal breach of discipline, those involved would be declared renegade and mercilessly hunted down. However, the Space Wolves Primarch, Leman Russ, was always renowned for his independence and impetuosity and I believe these traits remain predominant within the Chapter. The oaths of fealty undertaken by the Wolf Lords of the Space Wolves Great Companies declare their allegiance to Russ and the Emperor but do not stipulate servitude to the Great Wolf.

 

It appears that in some cases a Wolf Lord and his Great Company separate from the main body of the Chapter, undertaking their own quests and missions for a variety of reasons. The case of Jotun Bearclaw, for example, indicates that his men had elected not to return to Fenris because of the long journey time through warp space, and presumably the temporal displacement they would suffer on arrival (potentially several years over such a distance). I suspect that there is a more hidden motive behind the Company's actions, one which he chose not to share with the Kimmerians. This may be related to the Space Wolves' ancient quest to find their lost Primarch.

 

As to the long term viability of these 'lost companies' it is difficult to say. Given sufficient geneseed and technical competence it is entirely possible for such a company to maintain its strength over a protracted period, inducting and training new recruits in the same way as a normal Chapter. Less well-supplied companies might have to resort to training ordinary humans to fill their ranks or face the prospect of gradually dwindling in numbers until the company ceases to exist.

 

Speculation aside, this subject obviously requires further investigation. A Space Wolves Great Company is a substantial organization and the concept of having such groups wandering the galaxy without any kind of check or balance is somewhat worrying. I shall endeavor to uncover more information before contacting you again.

 

- Inquisitor Asmorales Harkenforth

 

 

The Wolves of Fenris article from WD246 includes the following:

 

All Space Wolves are headstrong and in the past this has even led to a Wolf Lord forswearing his oath of fealty to the Great Wolf and striking out on his own. This last happened in 815M41, when Wolf Lord Sven Ironhand revoked his oath and led his Great Company into exile on the Eastern Fringes. He was declared outlaw by Logan Grimnar, and a new Great Company was raised to replace the one that was lost. Some say that Sven went on to carve out an Empire in the Eastern Fringes and rules there to this day.

 

Now, ~185 years isn't that long in terms of Space Marine lifespans, but if Sven Ironhand does indeed still rule his Empire, then this, too, lends itself to the possibility of long-term viability.

 

Best,

 

Valerian

[hendrik]

wow, this is the first time ever I read about the possibility of non fenrisian recruits (and not terran born during the great crusade)! thanks val! my reasoning was that with no new recruits the party had to end some day

[Emptyedens]

Thanks Valerian that is the article I was looking for. It made me start thinking that with all the "Lost Great Companies" maybe there is a legions worth of the Wolves around.

 

Makes me wonder if Russ planned it this way...

[Valerian]

wow, this is the first time ever I read about the possibility of non fenrisian recruits (and not terran born during the great crusade)!

 

No problem, hendrik. I'm sure I've posted this before, but you must have missed it.

 

thanks val! my reasoning was that with no new recruits the party had to end some day

 

It certainly would. It seems, however, that the background material doesn't actually support the "Fenrisians-only" hypothesis. That, in my mind, is some sort of Urban Legend of The Fang.

 

Thanks Valerian that is the article I was looking for. It made me start thinking that with all the "Lost Great Companies" maybe there is a legions worth of the Wolves around.

 

I think a Legion's worth is probably not in keeping with the fluff. Certainly the Space Wolves are a large Chapter, even if we started as a small Legion. Many of us have concluded that we might number around 2,000 Marines, give or take, but that is about the right order of magnitude. Although long-term viability has been supported for some, we must also accept that many/most of those other Lost Companies over the millennia did not survive. In addition to striking out on their own, Lost Companies also include those Great Companies that have been lost or destroyed, which would probably be more typical than a Wolf Lord choosing to separate from the Chapter. So, if you include the original 13th Company chasing after Abaddon or Magnus and the Thousand Sons in the Eye of Terror (less than 1,000), and all surviving Lost Company Marines (probably no more than several hundred). We've still got less than 4,000 total "Sons of Russ" in the galaxy. Although not insignificant, this is a paltry number compared to the number of Marines carrying on the genetic legacy of Dorn, El Johnson, Sanguinius, or Guilliman.

 

Makes me wonder if Russ planned it this way...

 

Again, I doubt it. Although he most certainly sent off the 13th Company to either chase after the Thousand Sons at the Burning of Prospero, or to chase after Abaddon after the Great Scouring, I don't think he could have foreseen at all that some Great Companies would simply abandon the Chapter and go off to do their own thing.

 

Regards,

 

V