Looking for sources about specificities of the SW geneseed

[Nash Trickster]

Hello Members of the Pack... I'm currently putting the finishing touches to an article I'm writing about the different geneseeds' idiosyncrasies and I need your help in answering a question I have.

 

I've read/heard several times about 2 supposed "facts" about the Space Wolves' geneseed but never provided with any source for these allegations. I really need to find out if those are supported by the fluff or if they are merely fan-speculation loosely based on fluff.

 

First, I've heard several times that "every Space Wolf can be subject to the Curse of the Wulfen given certain circumstances"... The fluff says only a minority suffers it but it doesn't mean some are completely immune to it.

So, is it really suggested anywhere that the Curse hungs over the head of every Space Wolf, like some sort of Damocles Sword?

 

And second, I've heard that the physiology of Fenrisians is more "in tune" with the Canis Helix, that it is better accepted if implanted in a Fenrisian (some people even pointing to the Wolf Brothers as proof that implenting the Canis helix in another population had dire consequences). But I could not find any source supporting that affirmation.

Is this affirmation grounded in fluff or simply fan speculation based upon the Wolf Brothers "disbanding for genetic instability"?

 

Any help is welcome but if you can provide the exact source (book and page if possible) I'll be infinitely grateful!

[hendrik]

here's an old topic of mine about the wulfen, how they look etc. it contains alot of information you seek http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=244223&hl=

[Ulricspath]

Hello Members of the Pack... I'm currently putting the finishing touches to an article I'm writing about the different geneseeds' idiosyncrasies and I need your help in answering a question I have.

 

I've read/heard several times about 2 supposed "facts" about the Space Wolves' geneseed but never provided with any source for these allegations. I really need to find out if those are supported by the fluff or if they are merely fan-speculation loosely based on fluff.

 

First, I've heard several times that "every Space Wolf can be subject to the Curse of the Wulfen given certain circumstances"... The fluff says only a minority suffers it but it doesn't mean some are completely immune to it.

So, is it really suggested anywhere that the Curse hungs over the head of every Space Wolf, like some sort of Damocles Sword?

 

And second, I've heard that the physiology of Fenrisians is more "in tune" with the Canis Helix, that it is better accepted if implanted in a Fenrisian (some people even pointing to the Wolf Brothers as proof that implenting the Canis helix in another population had dire consequences). But I could not find any source supporting that affirmation.

Is this affirmation grounded in fluff or simply fan speculation based upon the Wolf Brothers "disbanding for genetic instability"?

 

Any help is welcome but if you can provide the exact source (book and page if possible) I'll be infinitely grateful!

 

On page 10 in the Space Wolves codex it explains it very specific.

But if you don't have one any where near you I can try to explain it.

In their initiation every aspiring space wolf have to drink from a cup that exposes them to the Canis Helix

which turn them into a primal beast. Their test is to overcome the primal urges and return to the fang, and if they fail

they become a shameful dark creature that will roam the surface of Fenris.

 

Once they return they can get the rest of the geneseede of a Space Marine. But not all of them have been able to

fully overcome the Canis Helix and it is them who in the heat of battle turn once against into a Wulfen beast.

[Nash Trickster]

Well, hendrik, I've looked at all the quotes in the thread and found this one:

Every space wolf had to contend with the beast within. The gifts Russ gave to his sons were double-edged, like everything else about Fenris. The strenght and ferocity of the wolf could not be tamed, but constantly tugged at its chains, testing the will of its master, and made no distinction between friend or foe. To the wolf, there was only the hunt and the joy of the kill.

(Wolf's Honour, p.24)

 

This seems to support the Curse of the Wulfen as a "Damocles Sword" theory...

 

But the Codices (at least the 2nd and 5th Edition ones) say that once the process of implantation begins the effects of the Helix are kept "in check" and only a minority suffer from the actual Curse of the Wulfen.

So, in the case of the quote at hand, it can be interpreted as meaning that while every Space Wolf can feel the "Beast within" from time to time, and thus understand what the Curse means for those who succomb to it, they are not all in real danger of succombing.

 

Then there is another quote (which I won't bother to copy/paste here) about young Ragnar asking a Wolf Priest about the Curse, and the answer given can still be interpreted in the same way as above, that some are more succeptible to it than others.

 

So, I guess my question will now be: is there other sources that would indicate that no SW is ever completely "above" the risk of falling prey to his instincts?

 

However, I found nothing about the Canis Helix being less "dangerous" to a Fenrisian than to anyone else in your thread...

 

=========

 

@Ulricspath, I have the Codex at hand (every edition of it, plus the Index Astartes, in fact) but these do not answer my very specific questions.

 

When the Codices say "only a minority succomb" it doesn't state if this minority can be any Space Wolf (a bit like no Blood Angel is beyond being overtaken by the Black Rage/Red Thirst) or if only a few very specific group (which the Chapter Apothecaries/Wolf Priests could be able to pre-diagnose if they had the means) and only them are actually succeptible...

 

In other words, my question could be: is there anything that suggests that only those who only barely succeded the Test of Morkai, "by a thread", could fall to the Curse, or is there any source that suggest that even those who succeeded outstandingly could also fall to it?

 

My second question (about the Fenrisian physiology being more "in tune" to the Canis Helix than any other population) cannot even begin to be answered by the passage you mention.

[Grimtooth]

In regard to Fenrisians being more "in tune", we know that there was an entire Legion formed from Terrans prior to the discovery of Russ. Prospero Burns has a Terran born rune priest and I can't recall 100%, but I think Wolf at the Door from Tales of Heresy has some Terran Wolves as well. While there is no specific fluff indicating Fenrisians are especially primed to become Wolves, the proof is in the pudding so to speak with the failure of the Wolf Brothers and the continued success on Fenris.

 

As far as susceptibility to falling to the curse, there is evidence that Blood Claws are especially vulnerable. Battle of the Fang has a detailed instance of one of the young Blood Claws beginning to fall and eventually falling completely. There is also passing remarks between some Thousand Sons talking about some of the Wolves going berserk. We also have other instances in the Ragnar novels where Blood Claws have fallen, both in the book that they fight alongside the 13th Co to retrieve the Spear of Russ. However in that same novel we have an instance of a senior SW falling to the curse as well.

 

Hope that helps.

 

In regard to Fenrisians being more "in tune", we know that there was an entire Legion formed from Terrans prior to the discovery of Russ. Prospero Burns has a Terran born rune priest and I can't recall 100%, but I think Wolf at the Door from Tales of Heresy has some Terran Wolves as well. While there is no specific fluff indicating Fenrisians are especially primed to become Wolves, the proof is in the pudding so to speak with the failure of the Wolf Brothers and the continued success on Fenris.

 

As far as susceptibility to falling to the curse, there is evidence that Blood Claws are especially vulnerable. Battle of the Fang has a detailed instance of one of the young Blood Claws beginning to fall and eventually falling completely. There is also passing remarks between some Thousand Sons talking about some of the Wolves going berserk. We also have other instances in the Ragnar novels where Blood Claws have fallen, both in the book that they fight alongside the 13th Co to retrieve the Spear of Russ. However in that same novel we have an instance of a senior SW falling to the curse as well.

 

Hope that helps.

[eyeslikethunder]

Also In Battle of the Fang

 

The wolf priest modifies the geneseed so that it can used outside of Fenris but Magnus destroys his work. This modification makes the resulting marines less wolf like

 

So its suggested that it has become tied to fenrisians somewhere along the line

[Grimtooth]

Also In Battle of the Fang

 

The wolf priest modifies the geneseed so that it can used outside of Fenris but Magnus destroys his work. This modification makes the resulting marines less wolf like

 

So its suggested that it has become tied to fenrisians somewhere along the line

 

Just to make it clear,

 

 

Wrymblade has not actually been successful in his geneseed manipulations. None of his test subjects actually survive. All he was trying to do was get rid of the curse specifically and make it into a different type of strength. There was no speculation whatsoever that it had anything to do with Fenrisian physiology.

 

[Ulricspath]

@Ulricspath, I have the Codex at hand (every edition of it, plus the Index Astartes, in fact) but these do not answer my very specific questions.

 

When the Codices say "only a minority succomb" it doesn't state if this minority can be any Space Wolf (a bit like no Blood Angel is beyond being overtaken by the Black Rage/Red Thirst) or if only a few very specific group (which the Chapter Apothecaries/Wolf Priests could be able to pre-diagnose if they had the means) and only them are actually succeptible...

 

In other words, my question could be: is there anything that suggests that only those who only barely succeded the Test of Morkai, "by a thread", could fall to the Curse, or is there any source that suggest that even those who succeeded outstandingly could also fall to it?

 

My second question (about the Fenrisian physiology being more "in tune" to the Canis Helix than any other population) cannot even begin to be answered by the passage you mention.

 

 

I think that you should be careful to analyse it to hard because the lore Games Workshop has many plot holes (by obvious reasons to not kill your creative side) and just like in Science what is written and proven should be the only things considered plausible.

 

Apart from that, I think like already stated that the younger the wolf, the harder it is to control it. And the instability of the Calis Helix is guiden by the feelings the Astarter is feeling, for example in the First Armageddon War and the wolves tried to rescue the surviving people from Armageddon from the inqusition they were commanded by Grimnar to hold fre and never return it. Later on when Grimnar allowed tem to fight back, the rage they had stored from what the Inqusition had done made them fight like savages, not even Grimnar thought of what he did.

 

And why I never gave an answer to your second question is because I don't know the answer.

[eyeslikethunder]

Also In Battle of the Fang

 

The wolf priest modifies the geneseed so that it can used outside of Fenris but Magnus destroys his work. This modification makes the resulting marines less wolf like

 

So its suggested that it has become tied to fenrisians somewhere along the line

 

Just to make it clear,

 

 

Wrymblade has not actually been successful in his geneseed manipulations. None of his test subjects actually survive. All he was trying to do was get rid of the curse specifically and make it into a different type of strength. There was no speculation whatsoever that it had anything to do with Fenrisian physiology.

 

 

No but Magnus says he will be it will allow chapters of SW Successors to surround the EOT. Magnus wants to stop this thats why Attacks the Fang. My book is being borrowed is it Wrymblade or the wolf lord who talks about the need to for Successors to shape the imperium their way rather than UM /IF way

 

[Grimtooth]

Also In Battle of the Fang

 

The wolf priest modifies the geneseed so that it can used outside of Fenris but Magnus destroys his work. This modification makes the resulting marines less wolf like

 

So its suggested that it has become tied to fenrisians somewhere along the line

 

Just to make it clear,

 

 

Wrymblade has not actually been successful in his geneseed manipulations. None of his test subjects actually survive. All he was trying to do was get rid of the curse specifically and make it into a different type of strength. There was no speculation whatsoever that it had anything to do with Fenrisian physiology.

 

 

No but Magnus says he will be it will allow chapters of SW Successors to surround the EOT. Magnus wants to stop this thats why Attacks the Fang. My book is being borrowed is it Wrymblade or the wolf lord who talks about the need to for Successors to shape the imperium their way rather than UM /IF way

 

 

 

yes, that is the whole reason for the attack by Magnus. He used facade of revenge for Prospero to cover up his true intentions. However at the time, the "Tempering" was not yet completed. The experimental aspirants were not survivng the changes wrought by the tinkering of Wrymblade.

 

It was Wrymblade speaking to the mortal that mentioned the UM setting the standard when it should be up to SW successors. The plans for a SW successors would have circled the Eye of Terror and rivialed the UM.

 

[Nash Trickster]

@Brother Ramses... Well, since the Canis Helix is presented as Russ's own legacy to the Legion, it is probable that the Terran born Space Wolves were not created using the same technique...

In other words, if they were created without the use of the Canis Helix (because that particular part of the creation process was brought in by Russ after he was re-discovered), it could explain why there was no "compatibility issue" with Terrans. And that would thus not rule out the idea that Fenrisians are more "in tune" with the Canis Helix than other populations.

 

However in that same novel we have an instance of a senior SW falling to the curse as well.

Could you (or anyone else) confirm if that "older" Space Wolf wasn't considered as "more likely to fall to the Curse"?

Because if it was in no way surprising that he too fell, without having given any precursor signs over his long career, then it would tend to confirm that the Curse is indeed a kind of Damocles Sword, and that no SW is beyond falling to the Curse...

 

The info that eyeslikethunder and you point to in Battle of the Fang seems promising to me...

It seems to suggest that the Space Wolves are convinced themselves that the geneseed needs to be tempered with in order for potential successors (who will obviously be recruiting from other planets than Fenris) to be created successfully... Hence, it would give more weight to the idea that the geneseed is seen (in universe) as incompatible with non-Fenrisian physiology...

Could I get the relevant quote? (with page number if possible) Please.

[hendrik]

in wolf's honour there's evidence of a senior (actually very senior!) space wolf succumbing to the curse of the wulfen

[Grimtooth]

in wolf's honour there's evidence of a senior (actually very senior!) space wolf succumbing to the curse of the wulfen

 

And in this case it looks to be due to a very high level of stress AND association with battling Chaos forces.

[Grimtooth]

@Brother Ramses... Well, since the Canis Helix is presented as Russ's own legacy to the Legion, it is probable that the Terran born Space Wolves were not created using the same technique...

In other words, if they were created without the use of the Canis Helix (because that particular part of the creation process was brought in by Russ after he was re-discovered), it could explain why there was no "compatibility issue" with Terrans. And that would thus not rule out the idea that Fenrisians are more "in tune" with the Canis Helix than other populations.

 

However in that same novel we have an instance of a senior SW falling to the curse as well.

Could you (or anyone else) confirm if that "older" Space Wolf wasn't considered as "more likely to fall to the Curse"?

Because if it was in no way surprising that he too fell, without having given any precursor signs over his long career, then it would tend to confirm that the Curse is indeed a kind of Damocles Sword, and that no SW is beyond falling to the Curse...

 

The info that eyeslikethunder and you point to in Battle of the Fang seems promising to me...

It seems to suggest that the Space Wolves are convinced themselves that the geneseed needs to be tempered with in order for potential successors (who will obviously be recruiting from other planets than Fenris) to be created successfully... Hence, it would give more weight to the idea that the geneseed is seen (in universe) as incompatible with non-Fenrisian physiology...

Could I get the relevant quote? (with page number if possible) Please.

 

The problem with your first assumption is that the elongated fangs, acute senses, leather skin, and feral appearance is specifically part of Russ' genetic heritage and caused by the Canis Helix and all of which were present in Terran born Space Wolves such as Long Fang in Prospero Burns.

 

The older SW to fall to the curse, was under a great deal of stress and battle fatigue against Chaos forces which is explained in the codex,

 

"A minority of these warrior do not completely conquer the gene-seed's original effects, however, and in time of great stress revert to the hulking, bloodthirsty state that haunts their sould like a ghastly shadow."

 

This would account for older Space Wolves falling to the curse as well as the higher then usual rate of Blood Claws that have been said to fall to the curse in several novels.

 

There were only a select few Space Wolves that believed that the tempering was the right idea. If you read Battle of the Fang, there were some that were against it and one individual in particular of very high status that would have destroyed it had he known about it.

 

The popular consensus on why the gene-seed was able to work with Terrans and now only appears to work with Fenrisians is the immense knowledge gap between the Emperor creating Terran Space Wolves and wolf priests creating Fenrisian Space Wolves. The Emperor just knew more about creating them with his vast knowledge of all the geneseed.

[Valerian]

@Brother Ramses... Well, since the Canis Helix is presented as Russ's own legacy to the Legion, it is probable that the Terran born Space Wolves were not created using the same technique...

In other words, if they were created without the use of the Canis Helix (because that particular part of the creation process was brought in by Russ after he was re-discovered),

 

Nash, this part is definitely not accurate. The Terran born Space Wolves did have the same genetic-legacy of Russ that the latter Fenrisian Space Wolves would get. I'm sure it won't take too long for me to find you a quote or two. Okay, here we go:

 

"From the residue genetic helices of the Primarchs the Emperor created twenty Space Marine Legions, each utilising the genetic material derived from one of the Primarchs....The implants of the Space Wolves were developed from the genetic helix of the Primarch Leman Russ." 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 8.

 

"The Space Wolves, the 6th Legion, were the genetic progeny of Russ and carried within them a unique gift: the Canis Helix, the Mark of the Wolf that sets the Space Wolves apart from the Space Marines of other Chapters." Children of the Night - WD 283.

 

"Little needs to be said of Fenris, the inhospitable, ice-bound world from which the Space Wolves come, but whether the 13th Company have found a home within the Eye of Terror is unknown. Certainly, the Canis Helix would prove a vital factor in surviving within the Eye, for it is known that the Curse of the Wulfen is want to surface as a defence against the influence of Chaos." Children of the Night - WD 283.

 

"That the Canis Helix is responsible for the condition of the Wulfen is known, and it has been suggested that the savage force that resides within each Space Wolf has allowed the 13th Company to survive the long millennia of contact with the power of Chaos. What is not known is whether the 13th Company's presence within the Eye of Terror has tainted its gene-seed in any way." Children of the Night - WD 283.

 

"Before then the Emperor was unable to duplicate the long and arduous work which had created the Primarchs. Instead, from the residue genetic helices of the Primarchs the Emperor created twenty Space Marine Legions, each utilizing the genetic material derived from one of the Primarchs. Thus the warriors of the First Founding Legions echoed to some degree the particular strengths and powers of the Primarch whose genes were used to develop their implants. The implants of the Space Wolves were developed from the genetic helix [aka the "Canis" helix] of the Primarch Leman Russ, and so Space Wolves to this day have some of the qualities of this great man." The Wolves of Fenris - WD 246.

 

"The Wolf Priests guard the Chapter's genetic seed, bio-culturing new implants and maintaining the vigour of the strain by weeding out any weakness or mutation. Their knowledge is deep, and for many centuries they have studied the effects of the cursed Wulfen gene helix in a search for a way to modify it and make safe the Chapter's genetic seed. However, their efforts have only succeeded in preventing the curse spreading, and it is unlikely that the damage can ever be repaired completely." The Wolves of Fenris - WD 246.

 

Also from the 5th Edition Codex (page 10) is a brand new piece of lore: "The trial is long, for the warrior is taken a thousand miles into the barren wastes beyond the fortress of the Fang. He drinks from the Cup of Wulfen, and his body absorbs the first and most deadly gene-seed of the Space Wolves - the unique Canis gene helix."

 

You can't separate the Canis Helix from the rest of the geneseed. "The Canis Helix is necessary, however, as without this esential part of Leman Russ' heritage the other gene helices cannot be implanted at all." 5th Edition Codex (page10).

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Nash Trickster]

Before I start answering the different points raised I'd like to clarify 2 issues:

 

First, the whole point of my article is to highlight the genetic particularities of each genome, being as thorough as possible, and I want everything to be really grounded in fluff. So I'm actually looking for the exact quotes from the fluff which support/confirm/infirm the 2 assumptions I've read/heard repeatedly.

 

Then, I must admit the Space Wolves are one of the Legions I'm less familiar with. I haven't read everything about them yet, Battle of the Fang and Prospero Burns are still on my "to-be-read-whenever-I-get-the-time" list for example. And that's why I need you SW fans to help me here...

 

Now, on with the discussion!

 

======

 

@hendrik: While I did read Wolf's Honour, it was quite some time ago, when it was released, and I must admit I have forgotten some of the finer details. So if it's fresher in your mind could you answer the questions I can't help but asking myself?:

 

When the older Space Wolf fell to the Curse, was it "surprising" for the other Space Wolves? Or were there mentions that it was expectable (that he had shown signs of battling his inner beast for quite some time)?

 

Because if the former, then it'd tend to support the "Curse as a Damocles Sword" theory, if the latter, it'd rather point to the "specific group only" one...

 

======

 

@Valerian:

The implants of the Space Wolves were developed from the genetic helix [aka the "Canis" helix] of the Primarch Leman Russ, and so Space Wolves to this day have some of the qualities of this great man.

-- The Wolves of Fenris - WD 246.

Just a small clarification I need here: Is the part between brackets from the original text or is it a comment you added?

 

Because that is actually the only quote in your list that would prove that the Canis Helix was used on Terran-born Space Wolves and, if it just says "genetic helix", without the part in brackets, then you could be reading a bit too much in there, it could simply be a fancy (if a little confusing) way of saying "developed from Russ's DNA"...

In that case, it would not rule out that the method used by the Emperor differed from the method used by the Space Wolves themselves after being reunited with their Primarch (and thus after starting recruiting from Fenrisians).

 

But if the part in brackets is in the original text, then, well, so much for this theory! ;)

 

======

 

@Brother Ramses:

The problem with your first assumption is that the elongated fangs, acute senses, leather skin, and feral appearance is specifically part of Russ' genetic heritage and caused by the Canis Helix and all of which were present in Terran born Space Wolves such as Long Fang in Prospero Burns.

This is indeed strongly suggesting that the Canis Helix was used on Terrans in the same way it has been post-reunification. (Even if one could --try to-- argue that using another implantation method on Terrans could have led to the same results...)

 

So, I'll "fold" on this one... I thought there might be yet another potential clue of the special link between the Canis Helix and Fenrisians to be found there. (Which would have strengthened the hypothesis based on the Wolf Brothers' failure.) But it seems I was too hopeful ;)

 

======

 

Again I need to ask if anyone could provide me with the relevant quote(s) (with page number if possible) from Battle of the Fang that suggest that tempering with the geneseed is required in order to hope to be able to create successor chapters. I really need those, and I won't be able to read that book in time for finishing my article. Please!

[hendrik]

to answer your question:

 

It was the great companies wolf guard battle leader that succumbed to the curse of the wulfen after needing to take over the stress of the campaign when his wolf lord got lethally wounded. combined with the stress of doubting himself+chaos influences and spells alike he transformed into a wulfen while in his TDA battlegear. as a result he was an unstopable killingmachine that single handedly murderd the enitre loyalist imperial guard command aswell as some other space wolves brothers that tried to stop him...

It was something they didn't expect at all, as indicated to some reactions of a couple of space wolves afterwards telling what happened. :rolleyes:

[Nash Trickster]

to answer your question:[...] It was something they didn't expect at all, as indicated to some reactions of a couple of space wolves afterwards telling what happened. :P

Thanks. Though if they were _that_ surprised, it could also mean that older SW are thought to be beyond any risk of falling.

Well, now at least I've got an example proving that even older SW can fall to the Curse, even if it requires extreme circumstances...

[hendrik]

they are considered to be less likely to fall, not thought to be beyond any risk of falling.... it's a world of difference! in wolfs honour it's also made quite clear that the wulfen are even a secret within the chapter, hence the surprive when it happens. now in battle of the fang we learn that some members of the fang know what will happen without any tie to rank or something. this suggests to me that under "normal" conditions that wolf priests are able to foretell the signs of the wulfen and then take the space wolf in question with them to teach him about the upcoming danger and how to resist it

[frostclaw222]

Also, doesn't it say in Battle of the Fang that the Wolf Brothers were basically Fenrisians, actual Wolves, who basically took half of the Fang's stuff and broke off? So, whatever instability caused the Wolf Brothers to degenerate en masse must have been an external factor that catalyzed the wulfen response on a huge scale, to the point that the entire chapter was written off as beyond hope.

 

Let's also bear in mind that apparently being a wulfen isn't a one-way trip for everyone, nor is total lack of control always the case. Bran Redmaw is a present-day Wolf Lord, and is said to periodically transform on the battlefield into a lupine killing machine, but then reverts to normal later on. So, while its effects on aspirants is fairly binary (pass the Test of Morkai or devolve), the long term aspects of the curse are varied and possibly controllable, at least in some exceptional cases.

 

What's been said above contradicts this (or at least could in large part do so), but I've always wondered if there was "something else" that the Emperor added to the astartes genegineering technique for the Wolves when he reunited with Russ. I keep going back to the "There are no wolves on Fenris" line, and wondering if the basic human Fenrisian genome might have been tweaked by the original Fenrisian settlers to provide protection against the elements before Old Night caused them to lose their technology, and that the Fenrisian wolves running about are some sort of base-level mutation of the Fenrisian human genotype that occurs infrequently and proves a stable mutation (ie: they can reproduce amongst each other). This would provide the solution to the questions surrounding the "no wolves on Fenris" saying, and also explain why the Emperor never had any cause to re-tweak the gene helices of Russ before he got to Fenris, as at that point, none of the Terran-born astartes in the VI had displayed this concerning mutation, or something in the Emperor's process drastically reduced the early-rejection aspect of it.

[Nash Trickster]

Also, doesn't it say in Battle of the Fang that the Wolf Brothers were basically Fenrisians, actual Wolves, who basically took half of the Fang's stuff and broke off? So, whatever instability caused the Wolf Brothers to degenerate en masse must have been an external factor

I think the usual expression in such cases is "a quote or it didn't happen" :)

 

More seriously, like I've said before I haven't read Battle of the Fang yet, so if there is in this book an actual piece of text which contradicts the commonly accepted theory that the Wolf Brothers "incident" was due to their recruiting "off world", I'd really like to see it! (And really need it, with page number if possible, for my article.)

[hendrik]

Also, doesn't it say in Battle of the Fang that the Wolf Brothers were basically Fenrisians, actual Wolves, who basically took half of the Fang's stuff and broke off? So, whatever instability caused the Wolf Brothers to degenerate en masse must have been an external factor that catalyzed the wulfen response on a huge scale, to the point that the entire chapter was written off as beyond hope. --

the wolf brothers in battle of the fang didn't turn wulfen, they displayed mutaztions such as beaks and bird legs if i recall correctly, they had fallen to chaos and showed signs of chaos mutations.

--

 

Let's also bear in mind that apparently being a wulfen isn't a one-way trip for everyone, nor is total lack of control always the case. Bran Redmaw is a present-day Wolf Lord, and is said to periodically transform on the battlefield into a lupine killing machine, but then reverts to normal later on. So, while its effects on aspirants is fairly binary (pass the Test of Morkai or devolve), the long term aspects of the curse are varied and possibly controllable, at least in some exceptional cases. --bran redmaws recent "I turn wulfen and then get normal again" is a recent messup/blatant neglectance of all previous source material about wulfen. almost every source states that once a wolf becomes wolfbitten (eg starts showing the signs of the curse of the wulfen) there is now ay back for him. they also state that returning to their previous form is impossible--

comments in bold/spoilers :)

[Grimtooth]

I have had another hard read of Prospero Burns and have come to some new conclusions based purely on speculation;

 

 

The reason why the Space Wolves can never make successors is because of what their wyrd was as set by the Emperor.

 

When Wyrmblade is speaking to the mortal in Battle of the Fang, we are made privy to exactly how taboo not only the Tempering, but also the plans for a SW empire to rule the galaxy. If you look to the beliefs of Wyrmblade and Morek in their conversation, we see that Morek is actually more true to Russ' legacy then the wolf priest. The thought of what is proposed appalls Morek to the very core of his being.

 

With the role that the 6th Legion was now known to carry since their creation, I am more and more convinced that that was their true and only role ever set by their wyrd. The Emperor created the 6th Legion specifically to be his executioners and somehow guaranteed it through his wisdom, genetic manipulation, or psychic might that they would never be able to be more then just executioners or as Wyrmblade mentions, the central power of the galaxy with Fenris at the center. Through his manipulations he has ensured that the executioners never are able to become the leading power of the galaxy.

 

This plays into everything we have read about each primarch having their own wyrd. Building an empires was never the 6th Legions wyrd. He left that to the Ultramarines. I think one point of Battle of the Fang that hammers this point home a bit is when Bjorn learns of the Tempering,

 

Bjorn in regard to the Tempering,

 

"It should have never been done. It was a betrayal of the primarch."

 

And then when Jarl Kjarlskar remarks about being the sole inheritors of of Russ' mantle Bjorn replies;

 

"As it should be. If I'd known of the work, I'd have destroyed it myself."

 

It was a betrayal of the primarch and being the lone inheritors of Russ' mantle, as it should be.

 

Just something new that comes with reading my books a few hundred times.

 

[hendrik]

interesting insight ramses! one i've never thought of before! now I've found a couple of facts that might lessen the insight.

first of all the emperor never ordered the splitup of the legions for as long as he was around (besides eliminating all evidence of the 2 missing legions) into chapters. during the great crusade, which legions are known to recruit from other worlds besides their homeplanet? are the sons of russ truely the only ones with only a single planet of recruitment. do we actually have an idea what the emperor would do with the legions in the end?

second; it's battle of the fang you reread! :)

[Nash Trickster]

the wolf brothers in battle of the fang didn't turn wulfen, they displayed mutaztions such as beaks and bird legs if i recall correctly, they had fallen to chaos and showed signs of chaos mutations.

Erm... Very interesting but again, since I haven't read Battle of the Fang yet, and most likely won't have the time to in the foreseeable future, I must say "a quote or it didn't happen" :P