Kitting out characters

[Brother Captain Josef]

Since I have now had the opportunity to have a few solid games of the new edition I would like to bounce the issue of kitting out sergeants and ICs off you fine people.

 

With the introduction of 'challenges' we can no longer rely on the 'hidden Powerfist' to get our units out of tight scrapes. I do not consider any Space Marine turning down a challenge at all fluffy. Lets face it; Tactical Squads rely on their Sergeant to do the heavy lifting in a combat against all but the weakest of combat units. (Please no "Well durr, just stay out of combat then..." comments. They are not helpful.)

 

I'm fairly confident that if you have a 2+ save like with Honour Guard then it's the safest bet to take an AP 2 weapon like a Power Axe or a Thunderhammer on your Champion / Sergeant as you are likely(?! lol) to survive anything attacking before you (monstrous creatures, Dreadnoughts etc excluded of course but then you'll just be being nailed in initiative order anyways).

 

I am also confident that if you are planning on attaching an IC to the unit that either the IC or the Sergeant should have an AP 2 weapon and the other specifically not so as to be able to have a choice as to who declares / accepts a challenge depending on what they might find themselves in combat with.

An example would be a Captain on a Bike (S10 to instagib him - T5) with T/Hammer, S/Shield + Artificer Armour (2+ 3++) then you're Bike Sergeant / Company Champion should have some manner of Power Weapon in order to strike in initiative order. But then would you take a Power Maul, lance or Sword? Ok in this instance you might be tempted to take a Power Lance but I would like to keep the discussion more general than this.

 

How do you kit out your Sergeants and why?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Bike Squads aside -- their speed make lances a good option -- I'm staying away from them. I've found that the usefulness of keeping Combat Tactics outweighs any of the Chapter Tactics (I've never tried a Vulkan list, I'll admit, but that's a personal preference item), so I'm staying with just combi-weapons. If charged, I refuse the challenge, then try to Combat Tactic my way out of combat. It worked against a hive tyrant last weekend, which freed me up to fry him with a plasma gun, some bolters, and a krak grenade to win the game.

 

That being said, I'm going with straight power sword and pistol for the Aspiring Champs in my Alpha Legion army. Given the high presence of power fists that continues to pervade most lists, the power sword + pistol gives me more attacks, at Initiative, that penetrates power armor. This gives me the upper hand against a sergeant equipped with any other power weapon of any type (save a lance on the charge); even against the maul, which hits harder, I'm still penetrating armor whereas he's not. And if that fist or axe-wielding sergeant refuses a challenge for fear of getting crumped without the ability to hit back, now I'm killing more mooks and I don't have to worry about that fist punching a mook or two of mine.

 

Tactical Terminator sergeants should, in my opinion, go for swords or mauls -- swords for cutting power armor, mauls for crunching xenos (I'm going to change mine to a maul). They don't need axes since they're backed up by a bunch of hombres with fists to provide AP2 hits.

 

As for independent characters, I still think that we need to continue to explot the I5 on our captains and chapter masters. Lightning claws and relic blades are still our best bet for murdering joe troopers and sergeants which, let's be honest, is what these characters should be doing in the first place. Leave the Terminator-killing to Terminators, or the Shooting Phase. Chaplains CAN take a fist which is nice since it gives them the option to switch between that and their maul as needs dictate; whether its worth the points is up to personal preference, I feel. Libbies are in a tough spot though; I like axes on them for ensuring they get a wound on the enemy to pop off their Force ability, but in a challenge, a power armored Libby may not be likely to survive since they'll be hitting at I1. That's why I'm kitbashing up a TDA Libby with a shield; it provides that survivability necessary to see them actually get to attack with their force axe.

[Captain Idaho]

There are a lot of variables for building for challenges particularly for Sergeants, since you don't know just what your opponent will be armed with.

 

As such, it's a case of using a very survivable model to fight it out, or my preference; a Sergeant to take the challenge whilst your character carves through a squad easily and wins the combat. I'd sacrifice a 1 wound Sergeant to win a combat any day of the week.

 

Definitely important for armour 2+ to be shot rather than faced in assaults.

[Ming]

To go with the OP....what should your characters have in lieu of the new challenges feature in the game. Most important thing is first smacks (higher I) and AP is critical, surviving a counterstroke can be secondary:

 

ICs have the widest range of options in the basic SM dex. For SM ICs, Captains - Artsy Armor and Relic Blades, +/- a shield, +/- digweaps. For SM Libbys - Shield is essential or you just die, TDA important to become 2+/3++, axe or stave is OK, axe is probably better for most games. For Chaplains - depends on jump pack or not, basic loadout is just fine (maul, 4++), TDA if going with termies. Nuff said.

 

Sergeants are just characters....in the SM dex IIRR cannot upgrade them with a stormshield or hammer, so really stuck with either PW or Fist. I have a thing going where if he travels without an IC, use a PW. If with an IC, bring a fist. If a fist, have a combi weapon. If a PW, pistol or PP.

 

Sternguard sergeants in the SM dex are best either claw/bolter, or fist/bolter/combi. Not much else you can do, maybe a shield.

 

Vanguard...need to go see the dex, but you may have better otions here like TH/SS with the jump pack, still with one wound, better to swing first if you can.

[UltraTacSgt]

I am trying to decide what weapon to give a Tactical sergeant. He will be rolling in a combat squad with my Captain and I would like him to be able to accept or issue challenges as needed.

If my Captains initiative would let him kill the challenger before it got a chance to swing back then I'd probably let him dispatch the enemy, but if I didn't want to risk my Captain or I wanted him to be able to cleave down a bunch of the enemy to try and break them, then I'd like my sergeant to be able to step up and do work.

 

I have the points in my list that I could give the sarge a powerfist, a power sword, or a power axe.

 

I like the PF for its ability to ding armor should they assault it and for its high str making it easier to kill what I hit, downside to me is the 25pts for low initiative on a one wound model.

I like the power sword for its cost and attack at initiative/AP3, but its average str means I need to roll 4's to wound. Incredibly average.

I like the power axe for its cost and +1 str making it easier to wound what I hit, and the AP2 will help it cleave through all infantry armor; I am on the fence however with its initiative.

 

Seems like the axe is a cheap power fist, the sword is a chainsword that can deny most armor saves, and the PF is the knockout king that you pay the price for.

Within my list and battle tactics it is highly unlikely that this squad will be called upon to attack armor, and there are always MB's. So, I am leaning towards the axe to balance cost and versatility.

 

So....for a sergeant that will be closing and charging with a RB/AA Captain, and taking challenges as the situation demands, which weapon do you think will serve the Emperor best?

 

Any general wargear or tactics suggestions regarding challenges in the circumstances I've described is welcome and appreciated.

[Koremu]

Power Fist & Storm Shield (Assault & Veteran Sergeants only). The Power Fist to Instant Death things, the Storm Shield to ensure you live to do so.

[pingo]

That doesn't really help his Tactical Sergeant, Koremu ;)

 

But that is a wise move.

 

I'd go for the axe and a bolt pistol. Maybe a plasma pistol if you have the points and feel you might get lucky and snipe some guys. 3 base attacks at S5 AP2 has good potential. Obviously, you risk not being able to strike at all, but with power weapons you don't get something for nothing and they all have their advantages and disadvantages. Besides, worst case scenario: whatever is killing your Sergeant isn't killing your Captain.

 

Of course, if you want to go completely crazy, you could always give him a power sword and a power axe then choose what you want to attack with depending on the situation. Expensive, but would make a cool model :)

[Jiron]

I will put in that there is good to know if you have some "preffered enemy". For instance, my wife plays lot's of necron warriors. In that case I always have at least one power maul.

 

Power maul is nice, instant death to eldar and tau but AP4 makes it sad. Most of your strikes however wounds.

Low initiative on W1 model is too bad IMHO. That takes out the axe and fist.

I usually take either power sword (average but universal) or Maul (strength is good but not very helpful against MEQ)

 

My personal vote is sword.

[DarkGuard]

At the moment I'm still sticking with combi weapons and just declining challenges, as that's how my models were equipped in 5th Ed.

 

However, power swords are becoming tempting, as they give me some I4 AP3 attacks which could be useful for singling out character power fists, and just giving me a chance in general. Power mauls are also a choice, but I'm staying away from Unwieldy weapons with my Tactical Sergeants due to their 3+ armour save.

EDIT: Also note that I've merged another thread into this one. Both were talking about equipment for challenges, the one that merged was a little more specific asking about Tactical squad Sergeants in particular, but as this thread encompassed all it will be better to have them all stuck in together with Tactical squad Sergeant being a sub discussion in this wider discussion.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Some pretty good musings going on but then I expected nothing less in Tactica :tu:

 

I have to say swords outperform mauls vs MEQ by roughly half a wound and on the charge should cause 1 wound on the opposing power armoured character thus winning the challenge.

 

Darkguard makes an interesting point in only choosing to take a weapon that can ignore your own character's save thus giving you the best chance of actually getting to swing, minimizing your risk and maximising your potential damage output. A power sword armed sgt should kill a power fist / Axe armed MEQ before he gets to swing and will outperform a maul wielding MEQ too against anything other than 4+ saves, multi wound T3 characters or high toughness Sv 3+ creatures. Lets face it though, if you're in combat with a Monstrous Creature you would be best just to Combat Tactics your ass outta there! (As he has already mentioned).

 

The possible exception that jumps out at me though concerns UltraTacSgt and synergy between unit sergeants and any attached Independent Characters.

As your Captain is going to be running about with what I'm guessing will be a Relic Blade you should go with something AP2 in case you get challenged by a 2+ sv chap that would gut your captain. A Powerfist slightly outperforms a Power Axe against infantry but at 10 points more it probably should lol. It would also help dispatch multi wound characters and be more useful against vehicles. It also allows you to take a combi weapon (about the only undisputed tactical squad sergeant upgrade) without adversely affecting your combat prowess Thoughts anyone?

[DarkGuard]

The possible exception that jumps out at me though concerns UltraTacSgt and synergy between unit sergeants and any attached Independent Characters.

As your Captain is going to be running about with what I'm guessing will be a Relic Blade you should go with something AP2 in case you get challenged by a 2+ sv chap that would gut your captain. A Powerfist slightly outperforms a Power Axe against infantry but at 10 points more it probably should lol. It would also help dispatch multi wound characters and be more useful against vehicles. It also allows you to take a combi weapon (about the only undisputed tactical squad sergeant upgrade) without adversely affecting your combat prowess Thoughts anyone?

 

This certainly a good point, and if you plan for this to happen then you should do it like that. So I may keep my Sternguard's power fist as they normally stick with a Libby, so I can pair them in challenges well enough.

 

I don't think there's a right answer though, as there's such a variety of opponents. If a Terminator with power sword challenged by Tactical Sergeant with power sword I'd probably back down to preserve him, hopefully, and then Combat Tactics away from the fight. If I start putting power swords on my guys, it's mainly to pose a threat to those power fists and power axes out there, and power mauls, to add some valuable AP3 to the army, and because I don't like the look of axes and mauls.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

At the moment I'm still sticking with combi weapons and just declining challenges, as that's how my models were equipped in 5th Ed.

 

However, power swords are becoming tempting, as they give me some I4 AP3 attacks which could be useful for singling out character power fists, and just giving me a chance in general. Power mauls are also a choice, but I'm staying away from Unwieldy weapons with my Tactical Sergeants due to their 3+ armour save.

 

+1 to this. 'nuff said by me.

[UltraTacSgt]

The possible exception that jumps out at me though concerns UltraTacSgt and synergy between unit sergeants and any attached Independent Characters.

As your Captain is going to be running about with what I'm guessing will be a Relic Blade you should go with something AP2 in case you get challenged by a 2+ sv chap that would gut your captain. A Powerfist slightly outperforms a Power Axe against infantry but at 10 points more it probably should lol. It would also help dispatch multi wound characters and be more useful against vehicles. It also allows you to take a combi weapon (about the only undisputed tactical squad sergeant upgrade) without adversely affecting your combat prowess Thoughts anyone?

 

You hit the nail on the head as far as what I was thinking. My Captain has a relic blade and artificer so he can take anything normal in a challenge (he lopped the head off of a DE Archon the other day w/ an ID wound), so my Tac sgt wouldn't need to worry as much about fighting at initiative. The main situation I can think of for him to step up would be against a multi wound target with a power fist type weapon that could gib my Captain. If the Tac sgt stepped up then they would both be swinging AP2 weapons at I1 so with 3 S5 AP2 attacks base and 4 if charging there is a very good chance that the sgt is going to put at least one wound on the foe; allowing my Captain to either decimate the rest of the enemy squad and hopefully route/sweep them, or giving my Captain a fighting chance to pile in an take the now wounded enemy down with some help from invuln saves (falling back w/ combat tactics being a last resort).

 

This leads me to consider the power axe w/ BP because its cost leaves me 10 valuable points for use elsewhere in the list, as well as the axe standing a pretty decent chance of getting to hit and kill a few enemies in a normal combat situation, and lastly, between the RB, P axe, and krak nades my unit would have a desperate mans chance at dinging up light armor, should the need arise.

 

If it were the Tac sgt by his lonesome I'd go power sword all the way; but this is a package deal w/ the Captain.

 

P.S. - WTH are you running Ultimar? So I can know what to avoid and gun down at a safe range.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Tack Sgt: I think I agree. The power fist only really gives you the best benefit if you are wanting to take a combi weapon as well so you could think of it as saving 20 points although that 20 points would give you the 'best of both worlds' such as it is. Lets face it he's still only a T4 W1 3+ sv chap.

 

Tac Squads are always going to struggle in combat with monstrous creatures and 'death star' units so it's prob going to be best to just run away and shoot rather than relying on a power fist sergeant to knock it out.

 

Overall i think power sword on general purpose tac squad sgts etc is probably going to be the best all rounder. S6 is nice but if you are going to be relying on that to wound an enemy you should prob be running away any ways. It only instagibs T3 characters whom you would wound on a 3+ with a sword either way so I think that in the greater scheme of things it would be more situational than the AP3 the sword gifts.

[Captain Idaho]

Just a thought; I remember a blurb of fluff many moons ago which referred to power fists being a weapon for Space Marine officers, which is kind of how things have gone now since power fist armed ICs are more useful than Tactical Sergeants.

 

I suspect we will see many a 3 wound, 3+ invulnerable save, power fist wielding nutter going forward, whilst lowly Sergeants get bashed around in combat with each other.

[DarkGuard]

The best thing about power fists being more viable on ICs is that thunder hammers will be more viable. I mean, how cool did they look in the hands of Space Marine Captains in DoW and Space Marine, and now they're more viable here as well! Add in artificer armour and you've got a pretty good challenger. Of course, you do lose your I5, which is always nice, so still a trade off, but so one sided as it was before.

 

Also guys, lets please remember this is a discussion about equipping characters for challengers, not a "my character could totally beat yours". Lets keep this Marine friendly as the OP intended, and keep it on the strategic and tactical uses of certain weapons in challenges. Cheers.

[Warprat]

I think I may be in the minority here, but I think I will stick to a combi weapon (usually combi-flamer.) This is for my tactical squads...

 

If I am facing an army that wants to assault, I usually split off into combat squads (depending on mission). Why give them a whole squad to kill, when you can just give them a half? I want to shoot the assaulty and assault the shooty. If an independent character has joined the squad, the sarge can accept the challenge, freeing up the IC to do some damage.

 

 

If I am facing a shooty army, I want to assault with full squads. To survive the defending fire, and to create overwhelming damage. Again, just taking the combi weapon is enough. My sarge can still challenge the tough guy of the squad (and probably die,) letting the rest of the squad prevail. If I have an independent character along, the sarge can issue the challenge, allowing the IC to hit freely.

 

 

Cheap and cheerful allows me to buy more troops. Each added man is able to play both sides of game, shoot OR assault. Each added close combat power weapon would just lock me more into the assault side. Losing a combi-weapon sarge is shruggable, especially if he has used the special.

[DarkGuard]

But is losing a combi-weapon really that shruggable? It's not just the combi-weapon you lose, and the attacks, but it's also the leadership. Ld9 is good, and much better than Ld8 then it appears. That Sergeant is actually a lynchpin of the combat squad, why throw him away?

 

The way I see it, is you either give him a combi-weapon or a power weapon, not both. Meltabombs don't factor, they're useful for both. The power fist is too expensive, especially when compared to the power axe, while the plasma pistol is also too expensive. So there's only really 5pts in it. Which is why I'm tempted in equipping my squads with power swords, so they can single out other characters, especially hidden power fists and power axes. The combi-weapon is one shot, and it makes them good for a turn, but the power weapon will make them more of an all rounder unit.

[Warprat]

But is losing a combi-weapon really that shruggable? It's not just the combi-weapon you lose, and the attacks, but it's also the leadership. Ld9 is good, and much better than Ld8 then it appears. That Sergeant is actually a lynchpin of the combat squad, why throw him away?

 

The way I see it, is you either give him a combi-weapon or a power weapon, not both. Meltabombs don't factor, they're useful for both. The power fist is too expensive, especially when compared to the power axe, while the plasma pistol is also too expensive. So there's only really 5pts in it. Which is why I'm tempted in equipping my squads with power swords, so they can single out other characters, especially hidden power fists and power axes. The combi-weapon is one shot, and it makes them good for a turn, but the power weapon will make them more of an all rounder unit.

 

 

For the amount of times you actually lose him without getting to fire, (which is low) it is shruggable. 10pts is not a big deal, if it only happens every other game or so... I want to fail the leadership test and run away anyway. Sure it would be nice to keep him, but if he takes a few power hits from a challenge, he probably saved the squad (at least from THAT power weapon.) The squad will regroup automatically if they make it away to safety anyway.

 

Meltabombs are insurance, you either pay for it or you don't and take your chances. I like to place Meltabombs on higher initiative IC's, where they can potentially take out dreadnoughts (like the Death Company dread with blood talons... yikes!) or on sarges when using the last of my points to fill out my list.

 

If I was to take an assault squad, I would go lightning claw or thunder hammer, depending on my IC. They are made for close combat.

 

I agree that tacticals (besides the sarge) are weighted to the shooty side, and a power sword would all rounder them. But I find more of my opponents to be of the assault sort, where my power weapon would be mostly out classed in my small combat squads. For the enemies that are shooty, the power sword is unnecessary most of the time.

 

If I ran full tactical squads against assaulty armies, I would agree with you completely. Except for one thing... Precision Shots. The plasma pistol may have a place here, as it allows you potentially kill a character or special and still charge. Probably too many eggs in one basket to buy both a plasma pistol and power sword, but it would be very fun to play.

[DarkGuard]

Agree with you on a lot of things there, I just think power weapons shouldn't be discounted now. I'm not too sure about precision shots making plasma pistols viable though, it's only on a 6, so you're basically crossing your fingers and hoping. Not worth the 15pts I think.

 

Also, with meltabombs, do remember they're unwieldy, and so if you use them you always strike at I1.

[Warprat]

Also, with meltabombs, do remember they're unwieldy, and so if you use them you always strike at I1.

 

Oh poo, not too much use against Death Company dreads with blood talons then... darn!