Scout Tactica - ish

[himkano]

So, when I first started this game, and then when I switched armies, I read a lot of forums. For 5th edition there were several threads with detailed threads that listed all of the units in an army, along with the units strengths / weaknesses / and best uses. I haven't seem them for 6th, and since they were so helpful for me when I was a new player, I thought I would try my hand at writing something along those lines. On my blog, and here if there is interest, I plan on eventually covering all the BA units, but I am starting with scoring units, and of those, I am starting with scouts.

 

Scoring

The first group I am going to look at from C:BA is the scoring units. My rough draft of this post had a lot of spreadsheet math, broken down into lots of details, and points per kill, and stuff like that. Instead of posting all of that, I am going to basically sum up. If I am taking scouts to score, the most important thing for me is that they can stay on the objective, so I am taking 10 scouts, and giving them camo cloaks. This means that the scouts will have 4+ armor save and 4+ cover save. So it would take about 60 boltgun shots fired from MEQs to remove this unit. If a unit had all plasma, there would still be a 4+ save (area terrain + cloak), so it would take 36 plasma shots to wipe them out, or they can go to ground and get a 2+ save by going to ground, which would enable them to be able to absorb 180 boltgun shots or 110 plasma shots. While I wasn't going to do a bunch of match, I think talking about how many points you are paying per absorbed shot is relevant when talking about a scoring unit, so taking the median of 36 and 180, you can absorb about 108 shots for 170 points (my unit has all sniper rifles). This comes out to 170/108, or about 1.57 points per shot absorbed.

 

Shooting

You want your scoring unit to contribute, so an average unit of 10 scouts with sniper rifles will inflict about 9 unsaved wounds against MEQ in the open over a 5 turn game. This comes out to paying about 18.5 points per wound this unit inflicts (while this is not a super impressive number, keep in mind that Tactical Marines with boltguns aren't doing much better outside of 12", and can't shoot anything past 24").

 

Melee

If this unit gets charged, it can withstand about 40 melee attacks, or about 4.5 points per wound, which makes it the least efficient scoring unit when it comes to getting charged. What is interesting though, is that this unit is equal to a tactical unit in terms of wounds inflicted on the charge (since the WS 3 will translate to generally hitting on a 4, just like the tac squad), and a scout squad armed with melee weapon is more point efficient on the charge than a squad of assault marines (same number of attacks, still needing 4s to hit and wound, and cheaper).

 

Disruption

Scouts have outflank, infiltrate, and scout. This gives them a lot of disruption capabilities. Personally, I used to like outflank, but now that you can't attack the turn you come in, I am kind of meh about it, since it isn't really better than DoA; the assault marines have better armor to absorb that round of shooting, and aren't susceptible to being blocked off the board.

Looking at infiltrate and scout, I noticed that you can infiltrate 18" away in the open, then scout move 6", to start the game withing 12" of the enemy, even in line of sight. Since you can not assault first turn if you use either of these abilities, I am not sure what you gain, since scouts aren't great for standing up to charge. I guess if you can get into cover within 12", with shotguns, combi-flamers (or maybe even boltguns), along with a melta bomb for the sgt, you can create enough of a threat that the enemy will have to take a turn to deal with that unit (if you go to ground they probably will have to use a unit to assault you too). If I was going to do this though, I would probably pass on the camo cloaks, and I would probably combat squad the unit into 2 units, on opposite sides of the board from each other, creating 3 fronts for the enemy to deal with. I realize 2 of these fronts are not very dangerous, but the more choices your opponent has to make, the more chances he has to make a mistake (and if he completely ignores them, krak grenades in his backfield will hurt soft targets, and if the scouts are still alive one turn 3, you can throw them at whatever your assault marines are about to charge to suck up the over watch.

 

Conclusions: I was trying to talk myself out of scouts, as they don't shoot as well as tacticals, outflank is inferior to DoA, and they aren't so much cheaper that tacticals anyway. However, after the disruption paragraph, I may have talked myself into 1 squad (which I would have to buy, since my 10,000

points worth of Marines do not include a single scout.)

[the jeske]

While I wasn't going to do a bunch of match, I think talking about how many points you are paying per absorbed shot is relevant when talking about a scoring unit, so taking the median of 36 and 180, you can absorb about 108 shots for 170 points (my unit has all sniper rifles). This comes out to 170/108, or about 1.57 points per shot absorbed.

too many armies runing flamers class weapons or incinerators on NDKs to make scouts a viable objective holder.

 

(while this is not a super impressive number, keep in mind that Tactical Marines with boltguns aren't doing much better outside of 12", and can't shoot anything past 24").

but dont die from flamers class weapons , have better save against non ap 3 and are cheap [free flamer RL done. unlike cloaks , telion , hvy , snipers etc].

+ if you take a tac your SP work on them , if you take marine scouts they dont get it.

 

If this unit gets charged, it can withstand about 40 melee attacks, or about 4.5 points per wound, which makes it the least efficient scoring unit when it comes to getting charged.

you mean 40 A from a unit or 40 actual wounding hits . because to drive a unit of scouts off an objective 16-20 saves should be enough[not doing math talking from expiriance].

 

 

Looking at infiltrate and scout, I noticed that you can infiltrate 18" away in the open, then scout move 6"

dont only scout bikers have the actual rule ?

[TrentL]

I've started taking small scout squads with sniper rifles and cloaks to be pesky and hunt.

Snipe the power weapons out of squads as well o place wounds on characters that can't be targeted (plain sgts who only exist to eat a challenge for example)

 

They aren't great but fluffy and when they work they are a

Nice surprise

 

Plus it gets me actually painting them

[himkano]

While I wasn't going to do a bunch of match, I think talking about how many points you are paying per absorbed shot is relevant when talking about a scoring unit, so taking the median of 36 and 180, you can absorb about 108 shots for 170 points (my unit has all sniper rifles). This comes out to 170/108, or about 1.57 points per shot absorbed.

too many armies runing flamers class weapons or incinerators on NDKs to make scouts a viable objective holder.

 

True, but our scouts have a 4+ armor save, which would take a heavy flamer to ignore - a regular flamer against armor 4 is no more dangerous than a boltgun

 

(while this is not a super impressive number, keep in mind that Tactical Marines with boltguns aren't doing much better outside of 12", and can't shoot anything past 24").

but dont die from flamers class weapons , have better save against non ap 3 and are cheap [free flamer RL done. unlike cloaks , telion , hvy , snipers etc].

+ if you take a tac your SP work on them , if you take marine scouts they dont get it.

 

I mentioned that Tactical Marines inside 12" are doing more damage (which is also flamer range). I am saying that between 12.1" and 24", scouts with sniper rifles and marine shooting boltguns are not too different , .8 unsaved wounds per round vs 1.1 unsaved wounds per round, and if the sniper gets a rending shot, it actually comes out slightly ahead.

The free flamer is irrelevant, because this unit, ideally, shouldn't be in range to use it, and if they are, I've already agreed that the tactical squad would be better at that range, but if you add a flamer to the tactical squad, they are less likely to out shoot snipers at range.

As far as the tactical marines being cheap, IF the scouts take the cloaks (which I think they should), then 10 of them cost the same as 10 tactical marines. The free ML or Heavy bolter is good point.

I don't know what you are trying to say about Telion, HVY, etc.

If SP means sanguinary priest, why do you think the scouts won't benefit from them - when I say "our scouts" i mean the scouts is C:BA, just like "Tactical Marines" means the Tactical Marines in C:BA

 

If this unit gets charged, it can withstand about 40 melee attacks, or about 4.5 points per wound, which makes it the least efficient scoring unit when it comes to getting charged.

you mean 40 A from a unit or 40 actual wounding hits . because to drive a unit of scouts off an objective 16-20 saves should be enough[not doing math talking from expiriance].

I am talking about 40 actual hits -> 20 wounds ->10 failed saves - this isn't counting powerswords or powerfists that ignore armor of course, but those are equally deadly to any of our scoring units (except Sanguinary Guard vs Sword)

 

Looking at infiltrate and scout, I noticed that you can infiltrate 18" away in the open, then scout move 6"

dont only scout bikers have the actual rule ?

 

No, both scouts and scout bikes have infiltrate and Scout, the difference is that bikes can make 12" scout move instead of 6"

 

I am not trying to say that scouts are better than tactical marines, Tactical Marines do a lot of things decently, which the scout does not. The purpose of my post is that a lot of people try to use scouts as a cheaper replacement to the tactical marine, and then conclude that scouts suck; they do suck in the role of Tactical Marines, but Tactical Marines cannot shoot more than 24" away, and they cannot start within 12" of the enemy, and they cannot go to ground for a 2+ save against something like a Vindi. If you want something that camps at an objective 24" from enemy, and shoots them as they cross the neutral zone, and then meets them in melee on the objective 3 turns later, the tactical squad is better. If you want something that can hold an objective 6" back from the neutral zone and still shoot, or something that can shoot at soft targets 12" into the enemy deployment zone, then scouts are better.

[Morticon]

thanks for the input.

Ive recently started playing with scouts for points saving purposes, so its nice to know where theyre most efficient.

[shaun03]

I have been thinking of building, a list around 5 x10 squads with sniper and camo cloaks. And tossing a ml and mb on the sgt, and allying with GK reason being vin assassin. Break them apart half inf and have the other half sit on obj. It's a cheap army full of pinning and rending. Toss in few baals and vincators. Not a compteive list but it' but would be sit and shoot army, and would be surprise to have ba sit and shoot rather than rip you apart.

 

But you gave great insight on scouts. Just miss the days when a all ba scout army was payable list.

[himkano]

I have been thinking of building, a list around 5 x10 squads with sniper and camo cloaks. And tossing a ml and mb on the sgt, and allying with GK reason being vin assassin. Break them apart half inf and have the other half sit on obj. It's a cheap army full of pinning and rending. Toss in few baals and vincators. Not a compteive list but it' but would be sit and shoot army, and would be surprise to have ba sit and shoot rather than rip you apart.

 

But you gave great insight on scouts. Just miss the days when a all ba scout army was payable list.

 

They may have come back a little in 6th edition though. I tried some in a game last Saturday (Battle Rep in link below) and, even though I used them as planned in my tactica, I was underwhelmed. I split a unit of 10 into two groups of 5, and moved 1 unit close to enemy and 1 unit a little further out. Part of the problem was that he also had scouts, and took the place I really wanted to put mine. Anyway, the needing 4s to hit and 4s to wound, when you are shooting 5 weapons is not awesome. I expected to kill a special weapon, or snipe an apothecary, or anything. Neither did they really force my opponent to make a decision, he wiped out 1 unit on the first turn, on his way to the relic, and he ignored the second unit completely (and did not suffer for it).

 

Now that I think about though, I did have a better play. The game was relic, and I could have started on the relic. (18" away, then 6" scout move). Pick it up on turn 1, I could have been running for my army by turn 2 (and if he shot everything at my scouts, then the rest of my stuff could have made it a little longer.

 

A trick I learned from my edar scout days though, that might still help you in an all scout army. Put you objective in the open, and don't put you scouts on the objective. Obviously you are going to need to be able to score, but if you put you scouts on the objective, they enemy will kill them in melee (since they are going there anyway). With the objective in the open, the enemy won't get cover saves from those rending shots, and he WILL have to chose between trying to hold the objective through snipers, or to leave and kill the snipers - of course, this works better with scouts that are really a threat, like eldar pathfinders or Dark Angel scouts.