Officio Assassinorum

[spartan249]

I have not encountered much love for assassins in either 5th or 6th, and it seems like I'm the only one who has considered ever using an assassin in my metagame. For their price cost, I think they're pretty darn effective when the stars align correctly, and I just want to collate the board's experience and engage in theoretical discourse about how to best use these highly skilled operatives.

 

For starters, Which assassin tickles your fancy the most? Do you use/encounter them, and if so, what works and what doesn't?

 

My favorites were the Vindicare in 5th and now the Callidus in 6th. While the vindicare's tank hunting ability has not diminished in the slightest, his ability to assassinate high value targets within infantry squads or to actually kill multi-wound models has been reduced drastically thanks to LoS! and lenient cover save requirements for MCs/Vehicles. He simply can't pull his weight with targeted removal anymore, and tank hunting can now be truly left to my psycannons, which can glance things to death very reliably now.

 

The Callidus recieved a big boost to her effectiveness in 6th IMO. What used to be 4+ cover saves for models in ruins/area terrain is now 5+, which increases the lethality of her Polymorphine. Her very reliable ability to show up right where you want her coupled with her ability to confuse the opponent's target priority during the critical opening phases of the game sometimes proves invaluable to me. Very often, I use her simply to remove an annoying/dangerous backfield element causing havoc, like a devastator squad or a dark reaper squad or long fangs or pathfinders, units that I would otherwise never reach within 5 turns of realistic play.

[Gentlemanloser]

The cally was nerfed, hardcore, in 6th.

 

Can't assault after deployment. C'Tan blade downpowered.

 

On the other hand the Vindicare received a substantial boost. He makes folk cry. His only downside is that he will be targetted with a high priority.

 

The problems with the other three Assassins are;

 

The Culexus remains too focused in thier role.

Why bother using an Eversor or a Cally when DCA are so much better chopping things up.

[spartan249]

The cally was nerfed, hardcore, in 6th.

 

Can't assault after deployment. C'Tan blade downpowered.

 

On the other hand the Vindicare received a substantial boost. He makes folk cry. His only downside is that he will be targetted with a high priority.

 

The problems with the other three Assassins are;

 

The Culexus remains too focused in thier role.

Why bother using an Eversor or a Cally when DCA are so much better chopping things up.

 

I don't exactly understand what you're getting at with the Callidus. They weren't able to assault after they popped up in 5th, so not much has changed. The C'tan Blade has been reduced to AP3, but so has every other power weapon out there (besides, she's mostly supposed to be going after the squishy targets in the back anyway, and those don't normally have 2+ armor).

 

How has the Vindicare received a boost with the 6th edition rules? Can you elaborate? He has not performed as well as he used to before for me, so I'd like your experience and logical reasoning behind your assertion.

 

As for the other two assassins, I pretty much agree with your assessment.

[Chengar Qordath]

The cally was nerfed, hardcore, in 6th.

 

Can't assault after deployment. C'Tan blade downpowered.

 

On the other hand the Vindicare received a substantial boost. He makes folk cry. His only downside is that he will be targetted with a high priority.

 

The problems with the other three Assassins are;

 

The Culexus remains too focused in thier role.

Why bother using an Eversor or a Cally when DCA are so much better chopping things up.

 

I don't exactly understand what you're getting at with the Callidus. They weren't able to assault after they popped up in 5th, so not much has changed. The C'tan Blade has been reduced to AP3, but so has every other power weapon out there (besides, she's mostly supposed to be going after the squishy targets in the back anyway, and those don't normally have 2+ armor).

 

How has the Vindicare received a boost with the 6th edition rules? Can you elaborate? He has not performed as well as he used to before for me, so I'd like your experience and logical reasoning behind your assertion.

 

As for the other two assassins, I pretty much agree with your assessment.

I think Gentlemanloser was thinking more about the GK Codex vs. the old Daemon Hunters Codex than 5th edition vs. 6th edition.

[Drachnon]

I tried an Eversor in 6th, it got one wound from shooting in opponent turn and then had to make 2 saves while charging an IG infantry squad. Luckily I made those and killed the squad (still died the turn after that) but I don't see much use for solo assassin charges against squads with S8 weapons or massed rapid fire weapons. The chance too loose from the overwatch is just too big.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think Gentlemanloser was thinking more about the GK Codex vs. the old Daemon Hunters Codex than 5th edition vs. 6th edition.

 

*whistle*

 

Opps. ;) Yeah.

 

Any 'sin other than the Vindi wasn't used in 5th. 6Th doesn't make them any better. ;)

[Twin .44]

The only assassin I would consider using is the Vindicaire. Pop him behind an Aegis defence line near a home objective and watch your opponent avoid it like cancer.

 

But I like him for two reasons. First, it's a real assassin. Picks off important models, takes out heavy armor quite easily. (I've had better luck with him taking out raiders/Monoliths than with Melta Guns). And the new +2 to vehicle penetration rolls makes it a lot easier than you might think. Second, he's also a fire magnet. Some might see this as a bad thing, but I couldn't be more than willing to sacrifice one model to the effect of soaking up firepower for a round or two. Easier for me to close in on my enemy with the truly dangerous stuff.

 

Fortunately for most opponents, I don't run him often. In casual games I don't like to go that hardcore, hence my Draigowing barely comes out to play ;) Only when someone's head gets too big and people need a pimp slap is when this kind of stuff comes out to fight.

[Zeratul29]

Honestly, what I'm hearing is everyone here has the assassins pretty much assessed correctly, The culexus and the eversor i never took in 5th nor will i take them in 6th, they seem like they would be fun to run but their just going to get shot up before they can do anything. ;)

 

The Callidus I suppose would be ok if your not going competitive or just want to do it for the lol's or the only good way to run it is to hit those annoying infantry heavy weapon squads in the backfield.

 

The Vindicare was the only assassin I ran in 5th, the guy killed EVERYTHING, it didnt matter what I aimed at, whether it was a Land raider or an Independent character, It would always suffer the wrath of the vindicare.

 

But now in 6th, I really see the Vindicare being toned down, with the addition of hull points. sure, you can still easily penetrate anything, but if you do the math hammer against a land raider, you take one hull point away and roll for damage, if you roll a 6, You can only imobilise it( -3 to the roll because it has 3 hull points left, +2 for being AP 1, so end result: 5, land raider is a stationary bastion now)

 

This is why my vindicare will not see many games this edition :) I did oh so love him though....

 

But I may run him just for the fear factor and fire soakage that he instills, as many people will remember his sting in 5th edition with extreme hatred :)

[emeraldegg]

Yeah, and besides, people always talk about how it just got harder to "make up their points" since LoS! makes it harder to take out IC's. The way I see it, the fire he draws and how he supports the rest of your army, as well as how he psychologically affects the enemy, makes him useful without necessarily being measured in points. Besides, even if someone does LoS! let's not forget that you're still taking out a model. Sure, a less powerful one, but still. -1 for the other army, right?

[Chengar Qordath]

Plus not every model you might want to snipe with the Vindicare will have Look Out Sir! as an option. Sniping the heavy weapon out of a tactical squad is still quite doable, for example.

[thade]

I seem to recall a thread here where I went on at great length as to why the Callidus was still very useful, despite the fact she cannot assault after materializing in this edition. (Frankly, if she could assault after materializing now, she'd be broken.)

 

Here's the summary: she's still awesome as she is an easy-to-place perfectly reserve unit, one you can somewhat delay or hasten with two stacks of Psychic Communion so you can be very accurate with her. While she used to be a ]

 

"Comes in alone, deep, like a not-very-smart Vanguard unit, charges in, kills a unit, and dies thereafter."

 

she is now a

 

"Comes in near a unit of yours that it is trouble, whales on the unit that's giving them trouble, and presents your opponent with a choice they may not find ideal: either kill the Callidus or kill the squad that was the original target."

 

This is even better now that an opponent is punished for multi-charging, so that Callidus can drop right into your own unit or between your unit and the enemy such that they will have to charge her if they mean to charge the unit they were trying to already.

 

She's far from useless. She is, in fact, awesome.

 

EDIT: Clarifying juxtaposition. Weirdest thing I've ever typed after "EDIT:".

[nurglez]

But now in 6th, I really see the Vindicare being toned down, with the addition of hull points. sure, you can still easily penetrate anything, but if you do the math hammer against a land raider, you take one hull point away and roll for damage, if you roll a 6, You can only imobilise it( -3 to the roll because it has 3 hull points left, +2 for being AP 1, so end result: 5, land raider is a stationary bastion now)

 

Er, I'm pretty damn sure you don't deduct the remaining hull points from a penetrating hit roll. Unless my friends and I have been playing it wrong. Should be a 4+ to destroy a landraider on a penetrating hit from a vindicare.

[Twin .44]

But now in 6th, I really see the Vindicare being toned down, with the addition of hull points. sure, you can still easily penetrate anything, but if you do the math hammer against a land raider, you take one hull point away and roll for damage, if you roll a 6, You can only imobilise it( -3 to the roll because it has 3 hull points left, +2 for being AP 1, so end result: 5, land raider is a stationary bastion now)

 

Er, I'm pretty damn sure you don't deduct the remaining hull points from a penetrating hit roll. Unless my friends and I have been playing it wrong. Should be a 4+ to destroy a landraider on a penetrating hit from a vindicare.

 

Yeah, I never read anything about hull points subtracting from the roll either. Anyone care to elaborate on this?

[thade]

Hull Points aren't strictly hit points; they're just a way for Glances to mean something (and for weaponless, immobile vehicles to finally give up their stupid Kill Point). <3

[worloch]

I love the concept of the Assassin's but GW seems pretty intent on not letting them live up to their potential awesomeness.

 

Why is the Vindi better at popping vehicles than IC's, especially now that LoS! guts his special rule? Did they forget to put that in the FAQ, or do they just prefer he snipe vehicles and not actual leaders in the enemy army?

 

The Calli never needed the Deepstrike rules added to her deployment rules. Just leave it at within 3" of the target unit, and forget the extraneous bits. She should be able to charge on the turn she comes in. Especially with Overwatch now in place. Her weapon should also be updated to AP 2 (it used to allow no saves whatsoever - how the mighty have fallen).

 

The Eversor suffers a lack of mobility - getting him to where he needs to go is the problem. This is even more of a problem now with Overwatch, because not only does he get shot up trying to make his way to his intended target, but if he actually survives to make it there he gets shot at on his way in. Fleet got a buff in 6th, so that helps him, but I think adding Scout would make sense for him as well.

 

The Culexus suffers from being too specialized, as mentioned above. Not worth including in your list unless you specifically know what your opponent is taking ahead of time, and even then maybe not worth it.

 

 

One idea I did have was to take a Vindi and an Aegis Defense line, pop the Icarus Lascannon emplacement in there, and have the Vindi man it. I need to double check all the rules involved, but I believe the Vindi could fire the Icarus Lascannon on his Bs 8 (meaning a 2+/4+ reroll to hit) with Interceptor rule on any Flyer coming in from Reserves on the enemies turn, and then fire his own weapons in his Shooting phase. With the Aegis line and Stealth, I think he would have a 4++ and 3+ cover plus his 6+ FNP, to help him weather return fire.

[spartan249]

I never said that the vindicare was less effective at killing tanks. I said that LoS! has reduced the capability for him to do real assassination work, as he first has to either shoot 3-4 times at a minimum to put out enough wounds to kill an IC (talking hellfire here, Turbo penetrator should take the same amount of time due to wounding issues), then we have to contend with cover saves and LoS!. I'm seriously just considering replacing my Vindicare model with a guy totin a long freakin anti-tank rifle instead, as that seems to be his only practical use now.

 

The Callidus has much different applications in a fight, and I think those applications could prove much more effective then the vindicare at distraction and at real wet work. Plus, she fits in to my ghost theme quite nicely.

[L30n1d4s]

I think one of the critical factors about making Assassins work that hasn't been mentioned yet is Grand Strategy. Since Assassins are not ICs, they are legitimate targets for GS. Now Counterattack really isn't worth it for any of them, so let's take a look at how each of the other GS options might be used with each Assassin:

 

Vindicare

-Scoring - Works great when you place himself back in some good cover near a objective and let him snipe away at advancing enemy. Even if the Vindicare doesn't kill many enemy, he can provide value by securing an objective while the rest of your army maneuvers around the board.

 

-Scout - Vindicare already has Infiltrate, so using this ability to let him outflank is not worthwhile (remember, his pistol is just as powerful as his rifle, including against vehicles, just shorter ranged, so he can come in from a board edge on Turn 2 and destroy a vehicle with a side shot, then set up shop and snipe down the enemy flank for the rest of the game). That said, he can use it to get into a good firing position before Turn 1 or, better yet, move into a friendly Rhino/Chimera which can serve as a Bunker for him to shoot out of the rest of the game.

 

-Reroll 1s To Wound - While he is already very likely to wound, this makes it almost 100 percent certain with Hellfire rounds and increases his chances when using Shieldbreaker or Turbo-penetrator (I.e. 4+ to wound).

 

Callidus

-Scoring - She is fragile, so probably not the best option, but if she can come in and wipe out a weak unit in the enemy backfield (I.e. Long Fangs), she can then try and hold onto an Objective that you might not otherwise be able to get to with any other unit in your army. Remember, she has Stealth, so if she can get in some decent cover, she can have a very good cover save.

 

-Scout - Not useful, based on her deployment rules.

 

-Reroll 1s To Wound - This can be great, especially with her sword causing ID... All it takes one of those 1s to be re-rolled and come up as an unsaved wound and the enemy unit dies straight up (I am looking at you, Tyranid MCs). Also, her Neural Shredder and Polymorphine 'free' attacks benefit from this as well, letting it kill an extra model or two potentially.

 

Eversor

-Scoring - Like the Callidus, not a super robust unit, so not a great option for him, plus he is footslogging unless he steals a ride . About the only way I could see this being effective is if your put him in a Storm Raven and have it Zoom for multiple turns, then late in the game go into hover mode, he assaults out, murders a squad, and claims an objective since he is scoring.

 

-Scout - One of the better ones for him. Let's him outflank (still can't charge the turn he comes in from reserve, pity) or let's him get an extra move closer to the enem before Turn 1... Can't charge on turn one if he does this, but you could move him another 6" Turn 1 and run (with Fleet for a better roll)' getting on average about 15" accross the board on Turn 1. You could move a Rhino Flat Out to provide cover for him too.... Then on Turn 2 he has a 6" move plus a 2d6 charge with rerollable dice, giving him a very good chance to get a charge off.

 

-Reroll 1s To Wound - Since he has Lightning Claw, pretty useless.

 

Culexus

-Scoring - Unlike Vindicare or Callidus, not a lot of advantages to this, but doesn't hurt to have another Scoring unit I. Your army.

 

-Scout - Like Vindicare, you can use the Scout move to pop him into a Rhino before Turn 1, then move it forward and have him shoot out of one of the firing points. Remember, all GK vehicles except chimeras count as Psykers, so that ups the number of shots he can make. Alternately, you can use this to Outflank him, letting him come in on the weak part of an enemy line and shoot up a vulnerable unit with his low AP weapon.

 

-Reroll 1s To Wound - Decent ability, especially when shooting at low T units like Eldar/IG/Tau/SOB, etc., since it makes him very likely to wound, but probably not the best way to use GS to maximize its value for your army.

[L30n1d4s]

Double post ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Especially with Overwatch now in place.

 

And this is the final nail in the coffin for the three CC orientated 'sins.

 

Charge a lone mini into a unit? Begging to get Overwatched to death. Especially if they have any auto hitting Template Weapons...

 

But now in 6th, I really see the Vindicare being toned down, with the addition of hull points. sure, you can still easily penetrate anything, but if you do the math hammer against a land raider, you take one hull point away and roll for damage, if you roll a 6, You can only imobilise it( -3 to the roll because it has 3 hull points left, +2 for being AP 1, so end result: 5, land raider is a stationary bastion now)

 

 

Er, I'm pretty damn sure you don't deduct the remaining hull points from a penetrating hit roll. Unless my friends and I have been playing it wrong. Should be a 4+ to destroy a landraider on a penetrating hit from a vindicare.

 

Same.

 

You don't deduct remaining hull points from Pen hits.

 

That would actually be a *good* rule. ;)

 

As for TGS, why are you not using it on your NDKs/Dreads? :huh:

 

Scoring Vindi? Ally in some SM snipers.

 

What does he want Scout for? Unless you need it to counter an enemy redployment (and it goes your way), or you need to run him into a bastion after deployment.

 

Reroll 1's? That should be going to your Pallies or Puri's. Much more effective then giving you a single reroll per turn.

[Lord Falkor]

ill still use my eversor assassin in certian games prob against csm as only termies get thier save ill leave them for plasma goodness, and blood angels as i hate their jump infantry.

 

as for gettin him into combat just move up through cover as you can use fleet in shooting phase, move through cover now ignores dangerous terrain tests.

 

turn 1 6" move 3" run (on average) = 9"

turn 2 6" move 8" charge (on average) = 14"

 

so if they get first turn i may get first turn charging when as players i play against use alot of assault squads in BA army, and deffo by turn 2 for either army.

 

now close combat the evvie gets atleast 5 S5 AP3 attacks that re-roll failed to wound rolls as lighting claw has shred special rule, and since hes a character can challenge sgt's or aspiring champions

 

i know they get overwatch but needing 6's to hit so out of 10 rolls if it is a full squad prob only 1 hits

 

so as long as i choose who i attack and getting the charge which i do get with an assassin 9 out of 10 times if he accepts the challenge ill prob kill the character in which case ill win the combat or he refuses and i kill 1/3 of the squad atleast.

 

so unless i get really unlucky with inv sv he will end up paying for himself whilst taking out a scoring unit depending on game were playing

 

P.S you really shouldnt always look on the negative side of things all the time as i think 40k is about having FUN as much if not more important that winning

[Lord Falkor]

But now in 6th, I really see the Vindicare being toned down, with the addition of hull points. sure, you can still easily penetrate anything, but if you do the math hammer against a land raider, you take one hull point away and roll for damage, if you roll a 6, You can only imobilise it( -3 to the roll because it has 3 hull points left, +2 for being AP 1, so end result: 5, land raider is a stationary bastion now)

 

Er, I'm pretty damn sure you don't deduct the remaining hull points from a penetrating hit roll. Unless my friends and I have been playing it wrong. Should be a 4+ to destroy a landraider on a penetrating hit from a vindicare.

 

Yeah, I never read anything about hull points subtracting from the roll either. Anyone care to elaborate on this?

 

p74 under peneterating hits

 

if a pen hit was scored vehicle not only loses 1 hull point but also suffers additional damage. after dectung any hull points roll a d6 for eac shot that pen the vehicles armour.

 

i think ppl may be misinterperating that bold part as even if a pen hit reduces it to 0 hull points you still have to roll on damage chat as theres a chance it'll explode, theres nothing in that section about hull points reducing the damage roll number

[thade]

Eversor only needs a ride if you want him doing something other than covering the backfield. Even slogging him on from Reserves if you can't hide him, or hiding him behind a Land Raider (like BA players do with Mephiston) can get him places without a ride. You'd be surprised how hard he is to spot behind a LR. :P

[worloch]

It's not that Assassin can't be good in corner cases and with special considerations - it is that you are forced to create corner cases and make special considerations to just get their points back, whereas you don't have to do that with other choices.

 

Assassin are competing in the Elites category, and in the GK codex, there is some stiff competition indeed.

 

Purifiers and Paladins come to mind instantly. Rightly feared and I think most people recognize their worth right off.

 

Henchmen warbands can also be quite devastating, and are very versatile. Each of those choices actually has a Special Character associated with them to make them troops, and I think that lent to their design concept being a little bit better than others, but that is just my personal speculation.

 

Ven. Dreads took a real hit with the new vehicle rules, but were quite competitive in the slot as well, for Psyflemen that just wouldn't die.

 

I think the Techmarine got a boost this edition, as he can now fortify any terrain (not just ruins) and he can replace lost hull points, in addition to being a possible grenade caddy and source of another +1 St in CC.

 

 

I could take an Eversor, hide him behind something and try to slip his 2 wounds w/ 4+ save past my enemies shooting so I can tear up a squad in CC - Or I could use that slot on some Purifiers w/ Halberds. More expensive yes, but also much more effective.

 

I could take give Grand Strategy to an Assassin to enhance them, but it is usually more effective to give it to my Psyflemen, or my Paladins, or my Purifiers. Why give scoring to a single 2 wound model, when I can give it to a whole squad of 2 wound Terminators?

 

 

 

Let me just finish here by putting in the caveat that this is all in my own opinion of course, and others will differ on what is most effective and worthwhile.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

We need a whole thread for this?

 

Guys, it's always the Vindicare. Except now he's a pure anti-tank gun, with some special weapon removal ability. Forget sniping IC's, and even squad Sarges will just push Jimmy in front of them on a 4+.

 

TGS always has better targets than Assassins, crazy talk.

[spartan249]

Well, I'll be using the Callidus extensively to get some first hand experience. I tend to agree with Thade about the capabilities of the Callidus, and I'm going to put my money where my mouth is.