Chaos terminators with dual LC's - viable in 6th ed. ?

[Kruppe]

This winter I converted 5 chaos terminators with dual lightning claws. Now I am about to start playing, and I was wondering, if experienced players felt they were a viable choice under 6th edition rules.

[Smurfalypse]

This winter I converted 5 chaos terminators with dual lightning claws. Now I am about to start playing, and I was wondering, if experienced players felt they were a viable choice under 6th edition rules.

 

Truth be told a permenant answer to this question wont be able to be answered until the new codex comes out. Though i will speculate as best i can.

 

If certain rumors are true, mainly if the Possessed are going to be better, CC Obliterators, and the Jump pack guys with shred are all in, i would say that 100% no. If we have other melee options that are even slightly better than terms specifically bred for melee, than people will just take a unit of terms for shooting and can also melee decently on its own.

 

Will depend on how much of the rumors are true and what exactly is in and what isnt.

[the jeske]

This winter I converted 5 chaos terminators with dual lightning claws. Now I am about to start playing, and I was wondering, if experienced players felt they were a viable choice under 6th edition rules.

no . bounce of +2sv , still no frags [if your thinking new dex] or no frags[if your thinking the dex we have now] total lack of support[dex we have now] . out of the new dex it is probably going to be cheaper to run 5I chosen as they can have the same weapons , same cost of icons/marks but are cheaper so you get more A for same points and you can use grandes something termis cant do .

[Feste]

I'd disagree. A TDA squad with Lightning Claws, would be a really nasty unit to send as a bully unit against medium to light infantry. With their 2+ armour save, they're excellent against virtually everything other than another TDA unit.

 

A marine with a powerfirst or a maul would provide a little versatility, but otherwise there's nothing wrong a Lightning Claw squad.

[Possessed Marine]

I just used a bunch of termies in a game about an hour ago against orks. I can tell you that the power mauls wreck face against orks. Also, I did have a chainfist & a lightning claw in there for good measure. Kinda wish I took the lightning claws as a pair. Because, as stated above, this is a great "bully" unit. They completely wrecked face, the mauls killed off anything that came near them (including a warboss & 7 nobs, LC got the rest before they could even think about hitting.) This one unit of termies basically routed the entire enemy contingent (had a heavy flamer in there too)

[Dr. Pepper]

I just used a bunch of termies in a game about an hour ago against orks. I can tell you that the power mauls wreck face against orks. Also, I did have a chainfist & a lightning claw in there for good measure. Kinda wish I took the lightning claws as a pair. Because, as stated above, this is a great "bully" unit. They completely wrecked face, the mauls killed off anything that came near them (including a warboss & 7 nobs, LC got the rest before they could even think about hitting.) This one unit of termies basically routed the entire enemy contingent (had a heavy flamer in there too)

 

I would just like to re iterate this. I too use mostly power mauls with my terminators. The problem I have with lightening claws is that you have to pay for the weapons, which in and of themselves don't add enough to warrent spending that many points on them for the bonus they give. The rulebook states that Lightening Claws are AP 3, and while our current one just says they ignore armor, that won't last forever. I assume that the new codex will adopt this AP 3 idea, and so they are suddenly going to go from wrecking a squad of terminators or mega armored nobz face, to being crushed from the return AP 2 hits. In this case, because a lightening claw wouldn't go through their armor, a Maul is going to be better statistically with the +2 to strength than the claws will be.

 

Do you play a lot of MEQ's? Or is it more 4+ and up saves? That is a good indicator of what is preferable.

[Kruppe]

thanks for ther replies. I just read up on LC's on teh CSM Codex and teh 6th editionm rulebook.

 

According the 6th edition rulebook LC's no longer ignores armour saves! ( they do in the CSM Codex) What a bummer....

[Feste]

A maul isn't going to be massively better than claws against T4. It's around 3/4 as compared to 5/6, around 8.3%, probably not worth worrying about. And yep, you pay for it but the versatility you gain is pretty useful. With claws they can bully anything smaller than themselves, while a maul can only do this to lighter infantry which could reasonably be targeted by Raptors or even your standard marines.

 

I'd certainly say that it's close enough that a simple answer that they're no good isn't quite accurate.

[the jeske]

They completely wrecked face, the mauls killed off anything that came near them (including a warboss & 7 nobs, LC got the rest before they could even think about hitting.)

with how many termis did you do this?

[Possessed Marine]

5 termies, 3 mauls, 1 chainfist, 1 LC, Heavy Flamer, IoK. I know it doesn't really fit in with your tourney list & that it's a costly unit, but those termies killed most of the opposing force. The only thing that the rest of my army did was shooting from TL bolters on my 2 rhino's & my lord firing off his Tz demon weapon. Also, those mauls killed off 3 deffkopta's & a bunch of boys. The extra 2 to strength really made a difference against the warboss, since he had a power klaw & I was able to kill him easily before he could hit.

[the jeske]

I know it doesn't really fit in with your tourney list & that it's a costly unit, but those termies killed most of the opposing force.

nah it is not realy that. just that nobz being multi wound with +5inv FnP and LOS! on every model with a warboss inside tend to take a lot of time to kill in hth .killing them before they get to hit [and thats 17 wounds with 2 svs and possible t5 if they are on bikes] seemed to require a special build for it. thank you for posting it.

[Possessed Marine]

I must clarify, the nobs were seperate from the warboss. Not the best strategy on his part.

[Feste]

5 termies, 3 mauls, 1 chainfist, 1 LC, Heavy Flamer, IoK.

I'm curious, were the nobz unharmed when they got to you? Because I'm really surprised that you managed to take them down, did you lose anyone?

I like the Heavy Flamer on that unit, is it there for the Overwatch?

[Possessed Marine]

Here's the breakdown of what happened. The termies teleported in close & shot at a group of 17 (3 were already killed) boyz, the flamer itself killed 7(!) with 5 more falling to bolter fire. Caused a Ld test, they fled. The unit of 10 nobz charge through difficult terrain, (they fight at I1 from that) heavy flamer fires overwatch (rolled a 6 - 3 hits!) manage to roll 2 wounds, they didn't save, killed one. Then I beat them down with mauls & claws. Get to I1 step, my chainfist rips through 2 (insta-death from double strength) they strike back, but they just had choppa's so I was allowed my armor saves. My termies make all of their saves. Only 2 nobz left, forced to take a Ld test, fail & flee.

 

Then the warboss charged next turn, heavy flamer caused one unsaved wound, mauls beat him down before he could strike (power klaw is unwieldy)

 

Basic summary, some of it was luck, but those mauls do a hurtin'

[Feste]

Wow, so your mauls and claws killed what? 5 nobz? That's pretty good! And yeah, running the nobz without the 'boss is a stroke of luck. If he'd been in the crowd, I could easily see him taking 2 TDA and keeping the nobz in the fight for another turn.

[darth_giles]

Interesting results from those mauls. I'm also a little surprised that nobody's tried yelling at you about MEQ still getting an armor save against them.

 

I really hope the "sword OR axe" rumor in the next codex is false. I've been toying with a similar unit based around power lances.

 

Edit: I remember reading something about a "nobz as troops" mob called a "MANZ mob" (caps theirs), and being used separately from the warboss. It isn't intended to be a retinue or anything, just another group of nobz running around. I'm not sure its the same style, though, because he used dethkoptas instead of a basilisk looted wagon.

[Feste]

MANz is an abbreviation for Mega-Armoured Nobz, 2 wound terminators without the invulnerable. Vicious, vicious guys and the power weapon change has only helped them.

 

Nobz and MANz can both be selected as Troops when you take a Warboss. It's quite nice, coz shifting either of those that's sitting on an objectives requires a little bit of dedication.

[darth_giles]

MANz is an abbreviation for Mega-Armoured Nobz, 2 wound terminators without the invulnerable. Vicious, vicious guys and the power weapon change has only helped them.

 

Nobz and MANz can both be selected as Troops when you take a Warboss. It's quite nice, coz shifting either of those that's sitting on an objectives requires a little bit of dedication.

Must be a change in the meta, since the "MANZ" mobs I saw a year or so ago were just regular Nobz. And you're right, they're definitely going to be a pain in the butt if you aren't carrying a Chaos Vindicator or get a really lucky draw from the Telepathy deck.

 

Why is it that there's so many problems that we have, which can best be solved by liberal application of pie plates?

[Excessus]

Just remember that MANZ aren't characters... :wacko:

[minigun762]

Less talk about filthy Xeno units please.

 

As for mauls vs claws, remember that claws are one of the few ways to get +1 attacks, so you're comparing 2 maul hits to 3 claw hits (ignoring charge).

Vs T4/2+

2 mauls = 1 hit = 0.8333 wounds = 0.139 wounds

3 claws = 1.5 hits = 1.12 wounds = 0.188 wounds

 

So claws are about a 1/3 better at killing T4/2+.

[the jeske]

for more points. So in the end mauls which are free kill more.

[Sception]

But don't most T4, 2+ models come with fists, or fist equivalents? If you send Maul termies against fist termies, or hammer termies, or claw nobz, you're gonna have a bad time.

[darth_giles]

But don't most T4, 2+ models come with fists, or fist equivalents? If you send Maul termies against fist termies, or hammer termies, or claw nobz, you're gonna have a bad time.

Thus my suggestion to have a Vindicator or some Oblits on hand. There ain't much that can withstand an AP 2 or 1 pie plate, even with allocation shenanigans. And when we get dragons, they'll probably be able to knock a few out by Vector Striking across them.

[the jeske]

only it can only strike other flyers.

[Plague Dave]

I'm toying around with the idea of taking at least two double-LC Termie champions for my Typhus retinue with the next codex. As champions, they will deflect any challenges from Typhus (not sure those will be his strong suit). The other two going with him would have Mauls, most likely, a H. Flamer, and combi-plas. They'll drive around in a Land Raider.

 

As an anti-light infantry unit (which is where Typhus currently excels, and likely should remain true with the new dex), I think it should work. This all depends on how expensive that unit will be, of course, but I'll want my army led by Typhus either way, and this seems like the better option (instead of DS'ing with a more shooty retinue).

 

I'll have Defilers, a zombie blob, maybe Dreads or Maulers, and even some daemon allies to deal with the tougher melee stuff.