Starting DA and some questions on fluffy preferences...

[Magnus Thane]

Build atm roughly 2-3 squads of marines and painted em (only not based or decalled) each with flamethrower and a missile thrower)

A starter set commander in the same state and i began work on my first group of veterans.

 

I've begun to ponder some things for the future though:

 

- my force will be veteran heavy and will field a command squad -> is this fluffy?

- I'm playing mostly 3rd company -> in the codex chapter schematic it says the company has a set nr of squads assigned to it-> does this nr of tactical squads take into account the vets?

- Fluffwise are assault squads usually fielded in nrs of 5 or 10? (typically)

- For a Greenwing Force - Third Company what sort of vehicules are fluff-wise fielded a lot?

I was thinking of ignoring preds, LR and going for less used choices like Whirlies and Demo's.

 

- Fluff-wise how likely would a small strike force of Greenwing cooperate with Ravenwing and Deathwing forces simultaneously?

- Given the new ally rule... what forces are likely to be allies. Given the fluff of the chapter this 'inducting' seems unlikely most of the time. But are there chapters, factions or the likes known to have good relations with the DA?

[Brother Immolator]

Build atm roughly 2-3 squads of marines and painted em (only not based or decalled) each with flamethrower and a missile thrower)

A starter set commander in the same state and i began work on my first group of veterans.

 

I've begun to ponder some things for the future though:

 

- my force will be veteran heavy and will field a command squad -> is this fluffy?

- I'm playing mostly 3rd company -> in the codex chapter schematic it says the company has a set nr of squads assigned to it-> does this nr of tactical squads take into account the vets?

- Fluffwise are assault squads usually fielded in nrs of 5 or 10? (typically)

- For a Greenwing Force - Third Company what sort of vehicules are fluff-wise fielded a lot?

I was thinking of ignoring preds, LR and going for less used choices like Whirlies and Demo's.

 

- Fluff-wise how likely would a small strike force of Greenwing cooperate with Ravenwing and Deathwing forces simultaneously?

- Given the new ally rule... what forces are likely to be allies. Given the fluff of the chapter this 'inducting' seems unlikely most of the time. But are there chapters, factions or the likes known to have good relations with the DA?

 

To be honest nobody currently has the vaguest idea were the company veterans come from fluffwise since all our veterans are supposed to take the field in terminator armor. Your guess on this one is as good as anyones.

 

I think the third is organized according to codex parameters and you might want to take a look at the chapter org chart in the codex. Personally i dont know anything that makes them special.

 

Allies to a DA force fluffwise would be any imperial institution with two exseptions stemming from the 3rd edition codex and a bit of fluff: We wouldnt ally back then with any army (even imperial ones) that had any sort of mutants (even ab-humans) in its ranks. Also since we like our secrets we wouldnt like inquisitorial forces sticking their noses around.

 

But times have moved forth and with the advent of sixth we can be best buds with the critters known as tau should you wish. Check the allies chart in the GWs site. It doesnt really make any sense fluffwise but...you might want thrakka fight as buds with belial...

 

I go to vomit now if youll excuse me.

[Jehoel]

As per the 6e BGB page 112-113, Dark Amgels are Battle Brothers (strongest of alliances) with: Black Templars, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, and Space Marines codexes. Allies of Convenience (unlikely allies, working for a common goal) are: Eldar, Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Space Wolves, and Tau. Desperate Allies (always keep an eye on these scum) are: Necrons and Orks.

 

So Brother Immolator, we can never be "best buds" with Tau, but at least they can be trusted "for a short time".

[Brother Immolator]

The irony was missed it seems :)

 

I didnt meant it from a rules perspective, from a chapter that seemed intolerant of everything bar pure humans to ally with xenos is odd.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

To be honest nobody currently has the vaguest idea were the company veterans come from fluffwise since all our veterans are supposed to take the field in terminator armor. Your guess on this one is as good as anyones.

 

Actually, only the First Company take to the field in TDA. The Company Veteran Squad was created as a grouping of Vets within the company. Not the First Company, but those who are skilled enough to fight in the Deathwing but are not mentally prepared, or there is not room for them :devil:

 

Back to the original topic: I would say likely allies are Imperial Guard and SM Chapters. What might be nice to take is a successor chapter using C: SM, so, say, Angels of Absolution. As for organisation, the Company-Vets are drawn from the entire company, so organisation is: 6 tac, 2 Assault and 2 Devs with a company Vet squad created using the best warriors of the company not in the command squad, so, not an extra squad.

 

Assault Marine Squads are, in the background, technically 10-man strong (same with the Dev squads). They also work best in squads of 10 gamewise, though, many people do not like them, they have got better in 6th ed with the Hammer of Wrath special rule.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

my force will be veteran heavy and will field a command squad -> is this fluffy?

 

As a Chapter, the Dark Angels are known to have a higher percentage of veterans than others. So, yes, this is "fluffy." Company Veteran Squads are not members of the First Company (although if the Unforgiven followed the Codex Astartes, they would be) they are a part of whichever Battle Company they "came up in."

 

I'm playing mostly 3rd company -> in the codex chapter schematic it says the company has a set nr of squads assigned to it

does this nr of tactical squads take into account the vets?

 

The Dark Angels Third Company is organzied -- on paper -- as per the standard Codex Astartes system: six Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads, two Devastator Squads, a Captain and Command Squad. A Techmarine, a Chaplain, a Librarian, a few Dreadnoughts are attached to the Company. Any non-transport vehicles are drawn from the chapter's armory and attached at the Company too.

 

Company Veteran Squads are not part of the standard Codex Astartes system, so would "displace" some of the standard squads (probably Tactical or Assault). The Dark Angels have an abudince of veterans... we're just that awesome.

 

Fluffwise are assault squads usually fielded in nrs of 5 or 10? (typically)

 

The standard Codex Astartes system dictates that a "full strength" squad is ten marines, but recognizes the need to operate in smaller sizes for some missions or due to combat losses. The rules reflect this by setting a minimum squad size of five and a maximum of ten, plus the Combat Squad option of breaking them into two 5-man demisquads. Mechanically, you're better off with the ten-man squad as Assault Marines aren't really the greatest assault troops in the game and the extra bodies really helps.

 

For a Greenwing Force - Third Company what sort of vehicules are fluff-wise fielded a lot?

I was thinking of ignoring preds, LR and going for less used choices like Whirlies and Demo's.

 

The standard Codex Astartes system dictates that every squad should have access to a Rhino, at a minimum. Razorbacks are slightly less common. Drop Pods are assigned on an ad hoc basis, depending on the mission requirment. No other vehicles are part of the Battle Company itself, barring perhaps a special transport like a Land Raider for the Company's Captain, every other tank in the Chapter is pooled in the seperate Armoury, then assigned to companies as needed. So, really, you can find any of the space marine tanks attached to the Third Company. If I had to attached numbers to it, I'd say:

 

- Rhinos and Razorbacks are common (10+ per company);

- Predators, Whirlwinds, and Land Speeders are uncommon (2-3 ea. per company); and,

- Land Raiders, Vindicators, and Dreadnoughts are fairly rare (1-2 ea. per company).

[Jehoel]

The irony was missed it seems :P

 

I didnt meant it from a rules perspective, from a chapter that seemed intolerant of everything bar pure humans to ally with xenos is odd.

Not really missed as much as redirected. :devil: I was kinda pointing out how Space Wolves are lumped in with the Eldar and Tau. The puppies aren't anymore trusted than the xenos, after all. :)

 

Plus, I was pointing out the options for the OP.

[Brother Immolator]

Two thinks id like to point out without wanting to be a nagging old man or a smart:cuss. Sorry to be a bit off topic too.

 

Havent read anything that says we have more vets than any other company or to indicate that the company vets are those who are not inducted into the deathwing due to trust/space/equipment issues. You are either trusted or not. If you stumble upon the secret and you are not prepared for whatever reason you disappear (and quite possibly you make a techmarine happy). Also deathwing does not equal inner circle always.

 

OFC if I missed something please do tell me :lol:

[Artemid]

re: Deathwing/Inner Circle: As I recall (I don't have it any more) in my old 3/3.5e Dex, being brought into the Deathwing WAS being brought into the Inner Circle. It's still the outermost level though - there's a lot you still don't know, but the first curtain is parted. I also distinctly remember blurbs about being able to be a member of the Deathwing without being fielded in first company TDA, but in a Veteran or Veteran Sergeant role within another company (I'm pretty sure Deathwing Sergeant was an upgrade back then?). This is, I think, barely touched at all in the current codex.

 

Same modifier it's been years and years since I've looked at it, so I might be wrong and please correct me if I am :cuss

[Magnus Thane]

re: Deathwing/Inner Circle: As I recall (I don't have it any more) in my old 3/3.5e Dex, being brought into the Deathwing WAS being brought into the Inner Circle. It's still the outermost level though - there's a lot you still don't know, but the first curtain is parted. I also distinctly remember blurbs about being able to be a member of the Deathwing without being fielded in first company TDA, but in a Veteran or Veteran Sergeant role within another company (I'm pretty sure Deathwing Sergeant was an upgrade back then?). This is, I think, barely touched at all in the current codex.

 

Same modifier it's been years and years since I've looked at it, so I might be wrong and please correct me if I am :cuss

 

Yeah the codex says Ravenwing = minimal info on the matter to better 'hunt' the Fallen.

Deathwing is introduction to the basis and hence a step higher. And from there on you follow a complex ecclectic parcours of layers of secrets being revealed. With the top dog being the only one who knows 'eveything'.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Two thinks id like to point out without wanting to be a nagging old man or a smart:cuss. Sorry to be a bit off topic too.

 

Havent read anything that says we have more vets than any other company or to indicate that the company vets are those who are not inducted into the deathwing due to trust/space/equipment issues. You are either trusted or not. If you stumble upon the secret and you are not prepared for whatever reason you disappear (and quite possibly you make a techmarine happy). Also deathwing does not equal inner circle always.

 

OFC if I missed something please do tell me :cuss

 

The Deathwing company are veterans. The Company-Veteran unit specifically states that they are drawn from within the company, not the Chapter (which is the First Company). The Deathwing are also all inducted into the Inner Circle. Members of a company-Veteran Squad may be members of the Inner Circle or ex-members of the First Company. Like all Chapters, a Veteran is just that, a veteran. The entire First Company is made up of Veterans but this does not negate their being veterans in other companies

 

A company-Vet Squad of 6 members, say, could include: 2 brothers from Squad I, 1 from Squad III, 1 from Squad IV, 1 from squad VIII and 1 from squad IX. These are Veterans drawn up from across the entire company. Though, that all said, I would agree that there is nothing, really, to indicate more veterans than our cousins, we do seem to make use of Vets within the companies for specific missions (which is the reasoning behind the Company-Veterans unit)

[Brother Immolator]

Guys there was a thread here about a few months ago and we had a heated debate and concluded that deathwing does not equate inner circle. You can also see it at the chart in the codex pg 15 the inner circle consists of: The chapter master, the Grand masters, The interrogators, Librarians and out of need the master of the Forge.

 

The deathwing know tid bits of the fall but not what the inner circle knows. Their induction into the deathwing has not as a requirement to know everything for the fall but information nessesery to hunt the fallen. Same goes to the ravenwing. They know specific info. Only its grand master knows more because he is inner circle.

The inner circle knows far more than the deathwing and coordinates the efforts of all unforgiven. Something that the deathwing are not privy to. The deathwing are enforcers. It can happen though that individuals can be both (etc Grand masters or interrogators)

 

The entire First Company is made up of Veterans but this does not negate their being veterans in other companies

 

Where is that stated? That they battle in other companies and in power armor when they get deathwing membership (aside from the company masters for obvious reasons)

 

The entry in page 25 says: They represent the finest warriors the company is able to field. Gathered together in a single squad and deployed where the fighting is thickest. It does say the company not loaned from deathwing or promoted to deathwing and returned et al.

 

From the deathwing we have pg 28 we have: In battle every member of the company fights in bone white terminator armor...

Thus it means that they always deploy in terminator armor and always fight as the first company not back and forth.

 

Dont want to be a fluff nazi, just accurate. Again if there is something to contradict i am happy to hear it :cuss

[Magnus Thane]

Since some non 1st Company marines (veterans) wear robes this means they're at least 'somewhat' inducted into the dark secret of the chapter no?.

[Brother Immolator]

Since some non 1st Company marines (veterans) wear robes this means they're at least 'somewhat' inducted into the dark secret of the chapter no?.

 

The problem is that the robe is not clear what (if) it denotes anything. Neither does it say anyware that vets must wear robes (well the box is called veteran box but still nothing in the codex)

[Magnus Thane]

'Dark Angels robes: DA SOMETIMES wear long robes of a bone white color over their armor. These indicate the brother's rank, role or position wihtin the convoluted structure of the Chapter, and therefore are most often seen on Company Veterans, Veteran Sergeants and higher ranking officers.' - p59 of the codex

-> I deduce out of this that:

1) A veteran doesn't HAVE to wear them (or the other elligeable ones)

2) It is a sort of privilege but does not persay require someone to have advanced very far within the circle.

3) Given that some models in devastator squads wear the robe (in official piccies), I presume non vet/non Deathwing/Ravenwing forces can wear them too at times implying that in rare cases someone not high of rank but still deemd trustworthy is allowed to wear it... OR the Devastator fellow is a veteran just serving in a Dev squad with some regulars around him.

[Brother Immolator]

Yep it is not clear, you can have the cake and eat it too.

 

Also on the devs, it a personal choice, i dont robe them because i find it silly not because of any fluff reason.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

I draw my conclusion that we have a higher number of Veterans based on the simple fact that we have Company Veteran Squads in the first place... A Codex Astartes adherent chapter has three types of (non-command) "Veteran Squads:" Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators. All of whom are meant to be members of a Codex Astartes adherent chapter's First Company. The Unforgiven don't do that, we have a First Company of one-hundred Terminators, a Second Company of one-hundred Veteran assault marines, and an unknown number of marines in each Battle & Reserve Company that form Veteran Squads.

 

Assuming full 1,000 Marine Chapters (which we all know probably only ever happens "on paper"), the 200 veterans of the First and Second Company, and let's say only one Company Veteran Squad per Battle & Reserve Company gives us 270 Veterans! A Codex chapter, like the Ultramarines, has 100.

[Brother Immolator]

a Second Company of one-hundred Veteran assault marines

 

I wouldnt call the ravenwing a veteran assault marine company. The assault marines and the bikers are two different corps. If they werent wouldnt they too wore the black panoply?

 

Neither i would call them veterans too. They are highly trained specialized force but in order for them to become veterans it would require a pool of bikers somewhere else in the chapter to get bloodied in combat and as far as the force org chart and fluff goes we dont have that.

 

For all intents and purposes bikers are selected during training from the most capable scouts on the saddle. Probably 'monitored' by the interrogators and inducted directly to the RW.

 

Assuming full 1,000 Marine Chapters (which we all know probably only ever happens "on paper"), the 200 veterans of the First and Second Company, and let's say only one Company Veteran Squad per Battle & Reserve Company gives us 270 Veterans! A Codex chapter, like the Ultramarines, has 100.

 

I want to remind you again that the first company of the DA is not fielded in power armor neither do they fold back in their respective companies at anytime (those they were elevated from).

Neither does the ravenwing (assuming that they are veterans which they arent, not even statwise currently, if the chinese leak is true they might become but for now lets focus on what we have shall we?) who only fight atop bikes or speeders.

That would narrow your calculations to 70 vets almost a full company. But as you said rarely most chapters are at the 1k marine threshold. Still there is no fluffy justification for them.

[Bryan Blaire]

While people may not agree with the bare bones explanation of the Company Vets, however contrived you think it is, the fluff justification is right there in the 4th Ed Codex. Just because you don't agree with the ret-con doesn't mean that GW didnt justify them in the codex fluff. Does it agree with the old Dark Angels material, no, but the two Necron codexes don't line up either, but that doesn't mean that the new Necron codex and all it's fluff justifications don't exist.

[EPK]

Just to throw a wild card into the discussion, I believe Naaman is noted as being a member of the Deathing. There we have an example of Deathwing being reassigned within the Chapter.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

a Second Company of one-hundred Veteran assault marines

I wouldnt call the ravenwing a veteran assault marine company. The assault marines and the bikers are two different corps. If they werent wouldnt they too wore the black panoply?

 

Neither i would call them veterans too. They are highly trained specialized force but in order for them to become veterans it would require a pool of bikers somewhere else in the chapter to get bloodied in combat and as far as the force org chart and fluff goes we dont have that.

 

Codex: Angels of Death, page 36, describes the First and Second Companies as being made up of veterans. All Ravenwing members are mounted on bikes or in Land Speeders, however, the Codex Astartes classifies bikes and land peeders as part of the "Assault Marine" speciality, which is why in the Battle Companies Assault Squads are sometime deployed on bikes or as land speeder crews. This bit of organization is shared by the Unforgiven and the Codex Astartes.

 

I never said the First Company Deathwing squads fought in anything other than Terminator Armor. They do, its repeatedly stated so in black and white in every one of the Dark Angels codices and in numerous other places. Having said that, membership in a Deathwing Terminator Squad is not permanent and is no quite the same thing as being part of the "inner circle," which is not quite the same thing as being a Veteran. Azrael, Ezekiel, Brother Bethor, Sapphon, and Asmodai were all recorded in Codex: Angels of Death as being members of the Deathwing. As are all Company Masters, Librarians and Interrogator-Chaplains.

 

Even if we assume the Second Company Ravenwing are not Veterans, and ignoring command officers, we're left with the 100 "rank-and-file" veterans from the twenty Deathwing Terminator Squads and an unknown number of "rank-and-file" veterans from the Company Veteran Squads. Since the Dark Angels must have these Company Veterans somewhere in their numbers and they are not known to violate the "1,000 Marines Rule," then these Company Veteran Squads must be part of that number.

 

So, a strictly Codex Astartes chapter (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, etc) is going to have a Veteran First Company of 100 veterans; an Unforgiven chapter is going to have a Veteran First Company of 100 veterans and even more Company Veterans in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th companies.

 

The Dark Angels have more veterans, no way around it.

[37cee]

Just to throw a wild card into the discussion, I believe Naaman is noted as being a member of the Deathing. There we have an example of Deathwing being reassigned within the Chapter.

True, Naaman was a member of the Deathwing, but he was on his own bidding that he was transfered to the 10th company. Still i think it's possible that a Deathwing Squad might use power armor, if this is more suitable for the mission. One might even consider this a more stealthy version, especially when allies are involved a squad in TDA will attract more attention than a squad in power armor. (especially handy if the =I= is involved)

[Ajax Tlamunus]

True, Naaman was a member of the Deathwing, but he was on his own bidding that he was transfered to the 10th company. Still i think it's possible that a Deathwing Squad might use power armor, if this is more suitable for the mission. One might even consider this a more stealthy version, especially when allies are involved a squad in TDA will attract more attention than a squad in power armor. (especially handy if the =I= is involved)

 

Naaman was part of the Deathwing-as-Inner-Circle, not part of the Deathwing-as-First-Company.

 

Note that members of the Deathwing always fight in Terminator armour, and are never fielded as Veteran squads in power armour as is the case with most other Chapters.

 

It isn't hard to justify the existence of the Deathwing or Ravenwing to other chapters or to an Inquistor. "We are the First Legion. We have a specialist company for scouting and a specialist company for heavy assaults. Bugger off." is an explanation that the Inquisition might not like, but Space Marine chapters diverge from the Codex Astartes all the bloody time, and in the grand scheme of things, the Dark Angels' don't differ that much as far as outsiders are considered.

 

Okay, so our First Company only ever fights in Tactical Dreadnought Amour? Well, that stuff's awesome and we've got lots of it in stock. Bugger off.

Okay, so our Second Company only ever fights on bikes or in land speeders? Well, they're really good at it... and have you met the White Scars? (No? Bugger off.)

So, yeah, we disregard the insignium astartes laid down in the codex? We've been doing it this way since the Great Crusade. Bugger off.

 

As far as most of the Imperium is concerned, the Dark Angels are damn near perfect examples of Codex Astartes adherence, especial considering the wacky stuff the Black Templars, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, White Scars, and others get up to.

[BigGumbo]

Just a quick one on the "Ravenwing as veterans" subject: in game terms they clearly are not because if they were, then they'd have two base attacks and Ld9 across the board rather than just for the Sergeants.

[EPK]

Naaman was part of the Deathwing-as-Inner-Circle, not part of the Deathwing-as-First-Company.

 

Be that as it may, do we know what path Naaman took to get into the Inner Circle? Could he have once made his rounds through the 1st Co.?