Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 It's never explictly stated, but it is implied that any of the characters noted as being Deathwing would have, at some point, been a member of the "rank and file" of the First Company (except for Librarians). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 This is turning a little bit too hostile for my tastes so i will give my last thoughts and discreetly leave this conversation however interesting it is. I would like to say that the codex angels of death is a 1996 book three editions away. Its contents (as concerning the DA) have been revised in two subsequent codices and as a result much of the fluff has changed. It is only logical that details such as the composition of the inner circle and its correlation in regards to the deathwing would mature and evolve. The dark angels as i have been informed in this very forum recently (the frater even posted pics of the pages) in one of the old codices had been given company attachments of bikes and speeders as not part of the ravenwing. Should we consider that cannon too nowdays that the most recent codex makes no such notion? By all means its your army and do so but IMHO since it is not stated as far as canon is concerned nowdays greenwing speeders and bikes dont exist. Second calculations and stuff aside (which was very informative btw and i liked it) i still cant find a piece of fluff that states the deployment of deathwing marines in non terminator armor. If i am wrong on this please quote source (modern cannon i do not dispute that this might have been the case a decade + ago). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Snip.. The Dark Angels have more veterans, no way around it. Your logic is sound, we have more Veterans than a 'Codex adherent' Chapter. Probably only around 50-70 from the Tactical Battle Companies and Reserve Tacticals though in accordance with the current Dex, maybe a couple more squads if they hold more than one each. I use two in my 3rd Company as I justify it with them being busy and successful with low mortality (not reflected on the tabletops though ;) B) ). And I really hope the RW get vet stats/status and lose fearless in the new dex. Brother Immolator, Novel AoD has PA marines inducted into the DW, not the 1st company DW the wider Legion based DW. It can be done, also Vet Sgts used to be able to upgrade to DW iirc(at work cant check specific wording). Happy days, back to work... s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Brother Immolator, Novel AoD has PA marines inducted into the DW, not the 1st company DW the wider Legion based DW. It can be done, also Vet Sgts used to be able to upgrade to DW iirc(at work cant check specific wording). Happy days, back to work... s You mean officers: An apothecary and interrogator chaplain. Not rank and file and both were inner circle too. They were not a squad of power armored tactical marines. Those were not deathwing. Unless you consider Boreas's field promoting without asking anyone valid. As far as i remember they were told what Boreas knew about the fallen and that was it (oh and they painted the power armor bone white...). For all intents and purposes they could very well have disappeared (along with Boreas for his unauthorized action) if they survived the annihilus by the inner circle. Also what is the wider deathwing? I am not familiar with the term. My logic is this: Its prerequisite (most of the time probably excluding librarians and the MOTF) to be deathwing in order to become inner circle. But it doesnt work the other way around. EDIT: I start to sound like another guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 You sound fine Brother, and your opinion is absolutely fine too. ;) No fight here B) The wider DW I mention is merely the inner circle members that are DW but are not in the First Company. Which can be far more than officers (hence the AoD comment), to me being in the DW is actually about the level of knowledge the Marine has about the Fallen, it is not nessessarily about what armour or sub unit he serves with(although the rules kind of say it's indicated by the Fearless USR). I envisiage membership to the DW as being VERY similar to the Lodge used by the bad guys. Grey oh so Grey. Being a Veteran is, imho, an indication of skill level as denoted by the stat line, regardless of knowledge. I do apply it in both directions as it isn't stated FO SHO in our fluff. That is why I apply similar logic to my war dolls formations as Sister Ajax. Peas mate s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Kudos man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Being a Veteran is, imho, an indication of skill level as denoted by the stat line, regardless of knowledge. One thing that I am hoping is that when the real 6th edition codex's start coming out for Marine Chapters, that they start to use this more. When everything is a straight 4 4 4 4... and the only real distinction is number of attacks, or Leadership, it really doesn't give a feel for being a Veteran, especially in comparison to other codex's. After seeing a rumour of Chaos TDA being S5 T5, it gives me hopes for perhaps a change in the future. IM, for TDA to be fluffy, TDA should all be : WS/BS/Init/Ld as per unit, Str 5 Tough 5 Wound 2, Save 2+/5++ the USR's granted to TDA: Relentless Bulky FNP(5+) Move Thru Cover Deep Strike the Specials of TDA: No Rhino/Razorback/Chimera riding No Sweeping Advance No Unwieldy Weapons This would bring them much closer to the fluff version. It would also be nice to see some dedicated Combat or Shooting units with WS 5 BS 5 to show their veteran increased ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 A 2+/5++ Save and Feel No Pain (5+)? Why not a return to the days of a 2+ save on 2d6? No Unwieldy Weapons would also mean loosing the most iconic of all Terminator weapons: the Powerfist... and the Thunderhammer, which is also kinda popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 A 2+/5++ Save and Feel No Pain (5+)? Why not a return to the days of a 2+ save on 2d6? No Unwieldy Weapons would also mean loosing the most iconic of all Terminator weapons: the Powerfist... and the Thunderhammer, which is also kinda popular. I imagine going back to 2+ on 2d6 (although I recall it as 3+ on 2d6, from doing a double-take when Terminators appeared to have the same armour save as PA marines) would be problematic, or at least inconsistent, in our current world of AP values rather than save modifiers. Also, as a point of clarification, I assumed Brother Landrain meant "no unwieldy weapons" in a similar sense to Relentless meaning "no heavy weapons": i.e. TDA troops would ignore "Unwieldy", rather than not being allowed to take that type of weapon. At least, I hope that's what he meant... For what it's worth, I wouldn't go for the T5/W2 element as I'd regard that as being rolled up in the increased armour save for TDA over regular marines - unless all Vets were going to get 2 wounds, of course. A strength boost I could definitely see as being conferred by the TDA wargear, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 True, Naaman was a member of the Deathwing, but he was on his own bidding that he was transfered to the 10th company. Still i think it's possible that a Deathwing Squad might use power armor, if this is more suitable for the mission. One might even consider this a more stealthy version, especially when allies are involved a squad in TDA will attract more attention than a squad in power armor. (especially handy if the =I= is involved) Naaman was part of the Deathwing-as-Inner-Circle, not part of the Deathwing-as-First-Company. Note that members of the Deathwing always fight in Terminator armour, and are never fielded as Veteran squads in power armour as is the case with most other Chapters. It isn't hard to justify the existence of the Deathwing or Ravenwing to other chapters or to an Inquistor. "We are the First Legion. We have a specialist company for scouting and a specialist company for heavy assaults. Bugger off." is an explanation that the Inquisition might not like, but Space Marine chapters diverge from the Codex Astartes all the bloody time, and in the grand scheme of things, the Dark Angels' don't differ that much as far as outsiders are considered. Okay, so our First Company only ever fights in Tactical Dreadnought Amour? Well, that stuff's awesome and we've got lots of it in stock. Bugger off. Okay, so our Second Company only ever fights on bikes or in land speeders? Well, they're really good at it... and have you met the White Scars? (No? Bugger off.) So, yeah, we disregard the insignium astartes laid down in the codex? We've been doing it this way since the Great Crusade. Bugger off. As far as most of the Imperium is concerned, the Dark Angels are damn near perfect examples of Codex Astartes adherence, especial considering the wacky stuff the Black Templars, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, White Scars, and others get up to. That was all quite true HOWEVER I must say... This is one of the most hilariously written things I read in a while. Extra cookies for you good man! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Extra cookies for you good woman! :D Fixed that for you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Being a Veteran is, imho, an indication of skill level as denoted by the stat line, regardless of knowledge. One thing that I am hoping is that when the real 6th edition codex's start coming out for Marine Chapters, that they start to use this more. When everything is a straight 4 4 4 4... and the only real distinction is number of attacks, or Leadership, it really doesn't give a feel for being a Veteran, especially in comparison to other codex's. After seeing a rumour of Chaos TDA being S5 T5, it gives me hopes for perhaps a change in the future. IM, for TDA to be fluffy, TDA should all be : WS/BS/Init/Ld as per unit, Str 5 Tough 5 Wound 2, Save 2+/5++ the USR's granted to TDA: Relentless Bulky FNP(5+) Move Thru Cover Deep Strike the Specials of TDA: No Rhino/Razorback/Chimera riding No Sweeping Advance No Unwieldy Weapons This would bring them much closer to the fluff version. It would also be nice to see some dedicated Combat or Shooting units with WS 5 BS 5 to show their veteran increased ability. All fine, except for one thing...they'd have to cost 85 points per model, and rather than move through cover, they'd need to have -1I and no ability to run (plus maybe always count as moving through difficult terrain but ignoring dangerous terrain). Being faster than power armor? Not on your life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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