[Techmarine] Black Templar one, how many attacks?!

[Kastor Krieg]

Somebody please double check my math and logic, because I'm pretty confused if this is indeed true :lol:

 

From Codex: Black Templars

 

Starts with A2, power weapon, servo arm. You can take the harness (along comes another servo arm) and Termie Honors from the Armoury. Each Servo Arm _adds_ another Attack! Unfortunately, the FAQ states openly that though the plasma cutter acts like a twin-linked plasma pistol, it does not confer a bonus CC attack, so you need the harness for that. The Power Weapon looks like a Power Axe, so it is one, though it should be something like a "Heavy Power Axe", akin to the "Heavy Chainsword" BRB entry, S+2? Nevertheless, Power Axe.

 

A3 with Honors

AAC (Rage +2A) makes that A5 after charging

Each Servo Arm ADDS a single power fist attack.

This becomes three additional attacks, because the Techmarine two Specialist Weapons (two servo arms which "count as a power fist"!).

 

So:

5 Attacks - Power Axe S5, AP2, Unwieldy

3 Attacks - Power Fist S8, AP2, Unwieldy

 

He's slow, but OMG THE SQUISH. Have him challenge people or have a go with vehicles, use his 2 Wounds an 2+ artificer armor save to get back at them... :lol:

 

And he can be paired with 2 Heavy Bolter servitors and 2 Repair Servitors, thus a neat base of fire AND being able to remove Immobilized / Weapon Destroyed effects OR give back a Hull Point at 2+ each round. He's my Venerable Dreadnought's new best friend! :tu:

[Kastor Krieg]

A friend pointed out that the "+1 Attack for two melee weapons when charging" rule applies only to "hand-held" weapons. Is there really a difference, rules-wise?

 

EDIT:

 

p.24, "+1 Two Weapons" rule says:

"Engaged models with two single-handed weapons [...] get +1 Attack. [...]"

 

and the FAQ has me treat the servo arm as a power fist. Those are single-handed weapons, the Techmarine has more "arms", so IMO he should still be getting the +1 for a dual-weapon combo.

[Acebaur]

A friend pointed out that the "+1 Attack for two melee weapons when charging" rule applies only to "hand-held" weapons. Is there really a difference, rules-wise?

 

There is no such rule. You get +1 attack for charging regardless of how you are armed. You get +1 attack for being armed with 2 single handed-non specialist weapons, like a Power Axe and a Pistol. Or two Power weapons, or two bolt pistols. Or, if you have a specialist weapon, and take a second you gain +1 attack

 

and the FAQ has me treat the servo arm as a power fist. Those are single-handed weapons, the Techmarine has more "arms", so IMO he should still be getting the +1 for a dual-weapon combo.

 

Powerfists are specialist weapons and only get +1 attack for having another specialist weapon.

 

Two servo arms do not add an additional attack. You get 2 servo attacks, period. They are not a powerfist, they simply count as one. His entry even specifically says that he gets two servo attacks. So you attack count is correct except for the Servo attacks which should be 2.

 

 

Edit: The Techmarines entry just says power weapon, so you could conceivably model him however you want instead of an Axe. Also note that if you give him bolt pistol it will pair with his PW to give him a total of 6 attacks on the charge!

[Kastor Krieg]

There is no such rule. You get +1 attack for charging regardless of how you are armed. You get +1 attack for being armed with 2 single handed-non specialist weapons, like a Power Axe and a Pistol. Or two Power weapons, or two bolt pistols. Or, if you have a specialist weapon, and take a second you gain +1 attack

Yes, I was wrong on the "when charging" part. But the second +1 comes in when those are single-handed power weapons.

 

Powerfists are specialist weapons and only get +1 attack for having another specialist weapon.

And only if it's of the same kind, too, I believe. So not for TH+PF, or LC+PF, but LC+LC - sure.

 

Two servo arms do not add an additional attack. You get 2 servo attacks, period. They are not a powerfist, they simply count as one. His entry even specifically says that he gets two servo attacks. So you attack count is correct except for the Servo attacks which should be 2.

You're talking about the C:SM entry, I'm reading from my BT codex.

 

"The servo-arm grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist".

 

Look at the phrasing and the syntax, where the comma is. This is the SERVO-ARM counting as a power fist, not the attack. If, then, the Techmarine effectively has two power fists, he should get the third attack for his two specialist single-handed weapons. QED.

 

Edit: The Techmarines entry just says power weapon, so you could conceivably model him however you want instead of an Axe. Also note that if you give him bolt pistol it will pair with his PW to give him a total of 6 attacks on the charge!

That's true, but the model has a mastercraft-looking (regular in rules) bolter instead. I'm after getting that +1A from the two "power fists" anyway :P

[Kastor Krieg]

And only if it's of the same kind, too, I believe. So not for TH+PF, or LC+PF, but LC+LC - sure.

Nope, wrong, just needs to be of the "Specialist Weapon" class. So above combos work anyway, for two single-handed Specialist Weapons.

 

Which begs another question. When I have a Power Fist and a Lightning Claw, both Specialist single-handed CCWs, when I get the additional attack for having two of those, WHICH attack is it? The better one? By what measure? Or is it my choice?

[Acebaur]

And only if it's of the same kind, too, I believe. So not for TH+PF, or LC+PF, but LC+LC - sure.

Nope, wrong, just needs to be of the "Specialist Weapon" class. So above combos work anyway, for two single-handed Specialist Weapons.

 

Which begs another question. When I have a Power Fist and a Lightning Claw, both Specialist single-handed CCWs, when I get the additional attack for having two of those, WHICH attack is it? The better one? By what measure? Or is it my choice?

 

You get +1 attack for whatever weapon you decide to use during that round of combat.

 

 

You're talking about the C:SM entry, I'm reading from my BT codex.

 

"The servo-arm grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist".

 

Look at the phrasing and the syntax, where the comma is. This is the SERVO-ARM counting as a power fist, not the attack. If, then, the Techmarine effectively has two power fists, he should get the third attack for his two specialist single-handed weapons. QED.

 

Nope, I'm definitely talking about the BT codex. He doesn't have 2 powerfists. He has two servo arms. They count as powerfists which means they use the stat line for one, they don't become powerfists. If it were meant to be a powerfist it would simply say a Servo arm is a powerfist. The codex even tells you "(giving him two servo arm attacks)"

 

That's true, but the model has a mastercraft-looking (regular in rules) bolter instead. I'm after getting that +1A from the two "power fists" anyway

He's also modeled with a bolt pistol in a holster. He still gains +1 attack for taking a pistol with his PW. Which at 1 point, why wouldn't you?

[BigDunc]

This is the SERVO-ARM counting as a power fist, not the attack.

I disagree. The servo-arm entry grants you an attack, it does not grant you a powerfist (even if that attack is like a powerfist).

 

Which begs another question. When I have a Power Fist and a Lightning Claw, both Specialist single-handed CCWs, when I get the additional attack for having two of those, WHICH attack is it? The better one? By what measure? Or is it my choice?

Either. It's your choice per combat phase.

[DarkGuard]

Two servo arms do not add an additional attack. You get 2 servo attacks, period. They are not a powerfist, they simply count as one. His entry even specifically says that he gets two servo attacks. So you attack count is correct except for the Servo attacks which should be 2.

You're talking about the C:SM entry, I'm reading from my BT codex.

 

"The servo-arm grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist".

 

Look at the phrasing and the syntax, where the comma is. This is the SERVO-ARM counting as a power fist, not the attack. If, then, the Techmarine effectively has two power fists, he should get the third attack for his two specialist single-handed weapons. QED.

 

So are you arguing for 3 bonus attacks here? 1 for charging, 1 for two weapons (in his hands, say pistol and power weapon), and one for two servo-arms? Because that won't happen as the BGB on page 24 quite clearly states that no matter how many weapons you have in your hands, you only get +1A, even if you have 4 one handed weapons.

 

Also Kastor Krieg, we do have an edit function for posts, please do use it if you've forgotten to add something instead of just double posting.

[Kastor Krieg]

So are you arguing for 3 bonus attacks here? 1 for charging, 1 for two weapons (in his hands, say pistol and power weapon), and one for two servo-arms? Because that won't happen as the BGB on page 24 quite clearly states that no matter how many weapons you have in your hands, you only get +1A, even if you have 4 one handed weapons.

Nope, just +1 for the charge and +1 for the two weapons (two power fists), as my Black Templar Techmarine is outfitted with a bolter, not a bolt pistol, and I'd like to keep it that way. If he had a bolt pistol and a power axe, he'd already be getting the two-weapon bonus attack indeed. Since he has a bolter, a rifle not a pistol, this "combo" does not give him the bonus. I'm arguing though that in its place the two "power fists" should.

[DarkGuard]

Ah, thank you for clarifying that. However, I would have to agree with the others in that you don't get the extra attack for two servo arms. I don't have the Codex on me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it says two attacks that are treated like power fist attacks. So you get two attacks, resolved as power fists, but they aren't power fists, they aren't technically weapons, and so you don't get the extra attack.

[Kastor Krieg]

Ah, thank you for clarifying that. However, I would have to agree with the others in that you don't get the extra attack for two servo arms. I don't have the Codex on me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it says two attacks that are treated like power fist attacks. So you get two attacks, resolved as power fists, but they aren't power fists, they aren't technically weapons, and so you don't get the extra attack.

Direct quote, from C: BT -

"The servo-arm grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist".

 

That's the point I made in the OP, the comma makes the difference. The servo arm is a weapon, after all I take it from the Armoury and I attack with it - and on top of that they count as power fists, single-handed weapons, after all. In the quote, because of the last comma, the servo arm counts as a power fist, not the attack. If there was no comma at the end, it'd be the attack, like you're saying.

 

It might as well be a case of GW wonky syntax, but if we look at pure RAW, it says what it says. And do not misunderstand me - I'm not going to argue this at a table, tournament or friendly game, but I was curious about the other opinions and nobody has yet acknowledged the "comma" distinction I'm making, flat out negating my approach. I'm a professional translator and editor, so I pay attention to linguistic quirks like that.

 

Compare:

"The servo-arm grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack counting as a power fist".

= [sERVO-ARM] [grants] [ATTACK] which is [counting as] [POWER FIST]

 

vs.

 

"The servo-arm grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist".

= [sERVO-ARM] [grants] [ATTACK] because it is [counting as] [POWER FIST]

 

See my point? With the comma the Techmarine has two "servo arms that count as power fists", without it he has "two servo-arm attacks that count as power fists". Major difference, rules-wise.

[ShinyRhino]

You've diagrammed the sentence incorrectly. "Counting as" is a modifier of "attack" because of the comma placement, not vice versa.

To get the additional attack the sentence would have to read "The servo arm, whcih counts as a power fist, grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack."

[Kastor Krieg]

I cannot agree.

 

In "The servo-arm grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist" the phrase [counting as power fist] is structured as a subordinate of the main sentence's subject and the VP "the servo arm grants", therefore being movable to its immediate vicinity in the sentence and thus equaling "The servo-arm, counting as a power fist, grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack". Without the comma there would be no such relation.

[Leonaides]

So - to clarify: you are asking whether having 2 items of wargear tha already 'grant an additional attack' equal a furhter 'additional attack' because you have 2 of them?

[ShinyRhino]

I cannot agree.

 

In "The servo-arm grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist" the phrase [counting as power fist] is structured as a subordinate of the main sentence's subject and the VP "the servo arm grants", therefore being movable to its immediate vicinity in the sentence and thus equaling "The servo-arm, counting as a power fist, grants the Techmarine an additional close combat attack". Without the comma there would be no such relation.

 

The problem is that "counting as a power fist" is a dangling modifier. There are two potential readings of the sentence, which we've already hashed out.

 

If you read it your way, the servo arm grants an additonal close combat attack. Fine, all well and good. But the status as counting as a powerfist is wasted, since it's irrelevant to your rule. You get that extra attack, and the arm counts as a powerfist, but the attacks do not have the EFFECT of a powerfist because you are not attacking with the arm.

Your Techmarine ends up with a pile of basic attacks.

 

If you read it the other way, the servo arm grants an additonal close combat attack which counts as a power fist attack. The harness hrants two of these attacks that count as power fists attacks. So, your techmairne gets all his basic attacks, plus two additonal attacks that are resolved as powerfist attacks.