Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Ok so I've been set straight on drop pods and te half army in reserve thing. Am I correct in thinking that a Stormraven and it's embarked dreadnought plus squad don't count for your half army in rserve rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Ok so I've been set straight on drop pods and te half army in reserve thing. Am I correct in thinking that a Stormraven and it's embarked dreadnought plus squad don't count for your half army in rserve rule? No. The Raven doesn't count because it is a flier and has to start in reserve. The squads on board do still count as it is not a dedicated transport. In fact, I'm still not sure if they count even if it is a dedicated transport! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 A Stormraven cant be taken as a Dedicated Transport IIRC, so units embarked will always count. - Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDunc Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 The reason why the occupants of SRs count towards reserves requirements is because the SR is not a transport that must arrive by deep strike. Dedicated or non-dedicated transport status as nothing to do with it. In fact, the occupants of a flyer would still count towards reserves requirements even if that flyer was a dedicated transport (and I can't think of any such flyers) unless that flyer's entry specifically stated otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 The Cron nightwing is a good example of this. I believe the occupants of dedicated transports needing to be kept in reserve are specifically listed as not counting. Its why drop pods work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Interesting question cropped up last night. Can a SR still arrive via Deep Strike with the new rules? If so, what speed does it count as travelling at? Is it still cruising speed as in 5th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDunc Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Is the Nightwing a flying dedicated transport? I'm using page 36 and 124 for all this. The drop pod is a unit that must arrive by deep strike. That is what makes the drop pod 'work' and allows the occupants of the drop pod to be ignored for reserve requirements. That's found on pg36. On pg124 dedicated transports are mentioned, but it only says that a unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit when determining how many units must deploy. Nothing about that relieves the occupying unit of their deploying responsibilities. A combined 'unit' of a flying dedicated transport and the unit inside would still add +1 to the pool of units that had to start on the board. Unless that flyer had to deep strike, but then it probably wouldn't be a flyer. Interesting question cropped up last night. Can a SR still arrive via Deep Strike with the new rules? If so, what speed does it count as travelling at? Is it still cruising speed as in 5th? It can and at cruising speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Angel Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I thought the rule is that any unit the must start in reserve doesn't count. I could be wrong. Either way moot point SR is not a dedicated transport so units inside count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I see what you mean BD. Seems counter intuitive, but seems to be the case RAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I suppose they just never considered an army might be all dedicated transport flyers and their passengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Is the Nightwing a flying dedicated transport? Yes the nightscythe is a dedicated transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDunc Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 The important distinction is between a unit that must start in reserve and a unit that must deep strike. A unit that must deep strike also must start in reserve (eg a drop pod); it's a necessary condition. A unit that must start in reserve does not necessarily have to deep strike (eg flyers). I suppose they just never considered an army might be all dedicated transport flyers and their passengers. Or perhaps that's exactly what they considered. Considering people are fearful of an all flyer list (which I believe Necrons can do), perhaps reserve restrictions are the built in counter/safety. From looking at the Night Scythe rules, nothing about the Night Scythe itself allows the unit it was purchased for to be ignored for reserve restrictions. That means that unless the unit that purchased the Night Scythe also had requirements to start in reserve, the 'combined' unit would still add 1 to the pool to determine reserve restrictions. The dedicated transports sentence on pg124 basically says that a dedicated transport never adds a unit to the reserve restriction pool beyond the unit it was purchased for. In the case of a Necron unit purchasing a Night Scythe, assuming the unit itself does not have to start in reserve, it would add +1 to the pool and its dedicated transport would be ignored. In the case of a Night Scythe, it's doubly ignored because the NS is a flyer and wouldn't count in the first place. Either way moot point SR is not a dedicated transport so units inside count. This misconception is the exact reason why I'm trying to clarify the rules. Considering 'dedicated transport' to be part of the equation is wrong, completely irrelevant, and just causes confusion. The reason why units inside a SR count towards reserve restrictions is because the SR does not have to deep strike. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Either way moot point SR is not a dedicated transport so units inside count. This misconception is the exact reason why I'm trying to clarify the rules. Considering 'dedicated transport' to be part of the equation is wrong, completely irrelevant, and just causes confusion. The reason why units inside a SR count towards reserve restrictions is because the SR does not have to deep strike. Period. The offending rule in question says: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half their units...Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes." So, if a unit and its dedicated transport are counted as one, yet you ignore fliers that must be kept in reserve, what then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthanor Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Edit: Ninja'd... somewhat My understanding was a bit shaky, so I went back and read the rules again. We have: When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any model embarked upon them) are ignored. So we have: - Must deep strike (Ex.: Drop pod) - Embarked on a transport that must deep strike (ANY passenger of a drop pod. It does not have to be a dedicated transport, so ICs in drop pods are a go!) Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Which gives: - Must start in reserve (Ex.: Flyers) But there is also the case of units embarked on a dedicated transport that must start in reserve. Since the passengers and dedicated transport count as one unit, and the transport must start in reserve because it is a flyer, would that make them not count as well? I'm not sure... but that does not apply to Storm Ravens/Eagles since they are not dedicated transport so whatever unit would ride in it would count towards the reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 ''Units that MUST start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may do so.'' p124 So, you ignore the SR no matter what. ''A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit.'' So, the SR isn't, that means that if you add a squad of say 10 DC then they count as +1? Yes? Now, if it was a Drop Pod for a RAS then it would count as 0, because p36 says, ''units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.''? ''He must specify to the opponent if any of his ICs left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together.'' So, I put a Chaplain in the SR with the DC & declare that he's joining the unit, that doesn't add +1 because he's an IC right? Same thing if I put 9 DC & a Chaplain in a Drop Pod, it counts as 0. Right? I add a DC Dread to the 10 DC & Chaplain, that adds +1. Right? So a SR with DC, Chaplain & DC Dread counts as (2) & means I have to have at least 2 units on the table? It makes more sense to me now. But there is also the case of units embarked on a dedicated transport that must start in reserve. Since the passengers and dedicated transport count as one unit, and the transport must start in reserve because it is a flyer, would that make them not count as well? I'm not sure... but that does not apply to Storm Ravens/Eagles since they are not dedicated transport so whatever unit would ride in it would count towards the reserve. Whatever unit is riding in the SR counts, I was kinda thinking along a similar line but this all comes down to the fact that the SR does not HAVE to arrive by Deep Strike (p36) dedicated transport or not. A Drop Pod (for example) MUST start in reserve, so it and its occupants are ignored. It's all there on page 36, top left - second paragraph. - Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthanor Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I think you're wrong regarding the IC. An IC can join a unit and will arrive with them, but that has nothing to do with how many units are counted for reserves. IC joins DC in drop pod: Nothing counts (IC and DC are embarked in a transport that must deep strike, Pod must deep strike) IC joins DC and Dread in SR: SR doesn't count (Must start in reserve). Dreadnought counts (SR is not his dedicated transport, so no matter how we read the rules, he counts), Chaplain counts (the IC is counted as its own unit and the SR is not his dedicated transport so no matter how we read the rules, he counts), the DC, not sure... (The SR is their dedicated transport and must start in reserve, so they are counted as one unit.. that counts... or not...) IC + DC in pod: Add nothing to the total number of units for reserve considerations. IC + DC + Dread in SR: Add 2 (or 3) to the total number of units for reserve considerations, depending on how you treat the unit+dedicated transport that must start in reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDunc Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Either way moot point SR is not a dedicated transport so units inside count. This misconception is the exact reason why I'm trying to clarify the rules. Considering 'dedicated transport' to be part of the equation is wrong, completely irrelevant, and just causes confusion. The reason why units inside a SR count towards reserve restrictions is because the SR does not have to deep strike. Period. The offending rule in question says: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half their units...Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes." So, if a unit and its dedicated transport are counted as one, yet you ignore fliers that must be kept in reserve, what then? To state your point another way, if I have a unit and a flying dedicated transport, and these units are considered a single unit for our purposes (reserve restrictions), do I count this 'single unit' towards reserve restrictions (based on the unit) or do I disregard this unit in terms of reserve restrictions (based on the flyer)? I think the answer is what I mentioned above.... the way to understand "A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes" is that a dedicated transport never adds a second 'unit' towards reserve restrictions. A unit and its dedicated transport never count as 2 units towards reserve restrictions; in other words, the maximum is 1. It doesn't matter if the dedicated transport is a flyer or not. This starts with the original unit and works 'in the direction of' dedicated transports. This is a fair starting point considering dedicated transports can't be taken as dedicated transports without a unit to purchase it as a dedicated transport. Let's assume Necron Warriors have purchased a dedicated transport. The Warriors count towards reserve restrictions; the dedicated transport does not because this 'combined unit' counts as a single unit towards reserve restrictions (edit:) which means, effectively, the dedicated transport 'ignores' reserve restrictions. Even if this dedicated transport is a flyer, nothing changes. The Warrior unit still counts towards reserve restrictions, the Night Scythe does not. The maximum of 1 still holds true. The misconception here stems from a confusion of dedicated transport and flyer rules (which is why I'm clarifying that dedicated transports have nothing to do with our situation). First, dedicated transports do not allow for a maximum of 0 when considering reserve restrictions; they only create a maximum of 1. Dedicated transports themselves 'ignore' reserve restrictions. They do not confer this 'ability' on their unit. If this were the case, a unit and dedicated transport would count as 0 units towards reserve restrictions. This belief that dedicated transports confer an 'ignore ability' on their unit is where people are getting things wrong. When you combine this mistake with flying dedicated transports, you get the misunderstanding that that a flying dedicated transport allows the unit inside to ignore reserve restrictions, and that is wrong. A flying dedicated transport only creates a maximum of 1 for the 'combined unit'; it does not allow for a maximum of 0 even though the flyer, by itself, has a maximum of 0. A drop pod allows for a maximum of 0 because it must arrive from deep strike, not because it is a dedicated transport. Since the passengers and dedicated transport count as one unit, and the transport must start in reserve because it is a flyer, would that make them not count as well? This is the same situation Morticon is referring to and is the situation I rephrased above. If we consider this situation a possibility, the rules are muddy and unclear. If we understand the rules to be such that dedicated transports never add a second unit towards reserve restrictions, there is no need for further clarification. So, the SR isn't, that means that if you add a squad of say 10 DC then they count as +1? Yes? Now, if it was a Dedicated Transport & Drop Pod for a RAS then it would count as 0, because p36 says, ''units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.''? You're almost right. Your second sentence should read "Now, if it was a drop pod for a RAS then it would count as 0." The fact that a drop pod is a dedicated transport has nothing to do with it. So a SR with DC, Chaplain & DC Dread counts as (2) & means I have to have at least 2 units on the table? A Stormraven with DC, Chaplain, and a Dread would add 3 units towards reserve restrictions. If we assume that the SR and its occupants are your entire army (ignoring list legality for a moment), then you'd have to deploy a single unit. Addition: Blood Angel Tac Squad = 1 unit towards reserve restrictions BA Tac Squad + heavy support Landraider = 2 units toward reserve restrictions (I know that BA don't have this option) BA Tac Squad + dedicated Landraider = 1 unit towards reserve restrictions BA Tac Squad + flying dedicated Landraider = 1 unit towards reserve restrictions Adding flyer rules to the situation changes nothing because a flying dedicated transports does not confer, in reverse order, the ability of dedicated transports to ignore reserve restrictions upon the unit that purchased the transport. In other words, flying dedicated transports do not create a 0 maximum. They, like regular dedicated transports, create a maximum of 1 unit counted towards reserve restrictions. What makes the flying dedicated transport 'different' is that as a flyer it never counts towards reserve restrictions. And I would say, of course it doesn't, it's a dedicated transport. Hypothetically, lets say that a Daemon unit could use a transport. Daemon unit = 0 units towards reserve restrictions because the unit must arrive by deep strike Daemon unit + heavy support Landraider = 1 unit towards reserve restrictions Daemon unit + dedicated Landraider = 0 units towards reserve restrictions Daemon unit + flying dedicated Landraider = 0 units towards reserve restrictions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Your second sentence should read "Now, if it was a drop pod for a RAS then it would count as 0." The fact that a drop pod is a dedicated transport has nothing to do with it. That's what I edited it to a second after posting, the second I realised Dedicated Transport has nothing to do with this :) So a SR with DC, Chaplain & DC Dread counts as (2) & means I have to have at least 2 units on the table? A Stormraven with DC, Chaplain, and a Dread would add 3 units towards reserve restrictions. If we assume that the SR and its occupants are your entire army (ignoring list legality for a moment), then you'd have to deploy a single unit. Right, so ICs count as 1 too. That's a shame. I really don't see the transport capability of SRs being used, at least by myself. Think I would rather have 2 Talons. Thanks for clearing that up! :( Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDunc Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Your second sentence should read "Now, if it was a drop pod for a RAS then it would count as 0." The fact that a drop pod is a dedicated transport has nothing to do with it. That's what I edited it to a second after posting, the second I realised Dedicated Transport has nothing to do with this So a SR with DC, Chaplain & DC Dread counts as (2) & means I have to have at least 2 units on the table? A Stormraven with DC, Chaplain, and a Dread would add 3 units towards reserve restrictions. If we assume that the SR and its occupants are your entire army (ignoring list legality for a moment), then you'd have to deploy a single unit. Right, so ICs count as 1 too. That's a shame. I really don't see the transport capability of SRs being used, at least by myself. Think I would rather have 2 Talons. Thanks for clearing that up! :) Dallas Cool cool! G'luck :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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