daemon allies for Word Bearers?

[miratupordonde]

Dear all,

 

I hereby submit to the greater wisdom of my fellow Word Bearers and Chaos undivided worshipers, in order to achieve knowledge about the potential inclusion of an allied Daemons force within my growing WB army.

Since due to the release of the WD update a new codex can not be expected for CD, and I really don't know the units and their potential I would like to receive some inputs from your side regarding which configuration would you advice for such a detachment.

Due to the imminent release of the 6th edition and the CSM codex, and since the summoned daemons are expected to exit from the CSM codex (but fortunately they can be included now as allies), I haven’t buy any daemons so far, but a Daemon Prince (which I expected could be taken as HQ but now I see turns to be a Heavy Support slot –:cuss?)…

Which additional purchases would you recommend, especially in view of the last update of th daemons? And bearing in mind the fluff and history of the WBs, which kind of daemons would they be more prone to summon?

 

Thanks indeed in advance! :D

[Caffeineated Chaos]

As far as being prone to summoning certain daemons, the Word Bearers as a general rule make it a point to worship the gods equally, so any preference would likely be just how effective the host viewed a particular kind of daemon. I imagine soulgrinders would be a fave, and they're not bad, would rather have a soulgrinder than a defiler. Bloodthirsters are good but expensive, Skulltaker rocks, Bloodcrushers and fiends of slaanesh are good, with the change to flamers it's hard to say if they're good or bad now, pretty sure all the gods' troop choices are good. Would avoid the fast attack section.

[darth_giles]

Well, you could try modelling a "human size" version of your DP that you could use as a Herald. I'm not sure how awkward the fluff would be, though, because the Daemons board flat ignored me when I asked about it.

[totgeboren]

It seems as if Chaos Marines will still get to use a Daemon Prince as a HQ, so you might not even need to use allies to use your prince. Other than that, even if we don't get to keep the DP as a HQ, what's wrong with including it as an allied heavy support? The Daemon Prince from the Daemon Codex is really cool and have lots of options (instead of just having... well... wings), and also can use psychic powers without them counting as psychic powers, which is great! :)

[Smurfalypse]

With the Daemon Codex updates that came out in the recent WD I think it is safe to say that both Flamers and Screamers are good choices for their Terminator killing values.

 

Bloodcrushers ate a pretty big nerf with the power weapon downgrade.

Flamers are probably a better choice now with the 2 wounds and much better template attack.

 

Screamers got a massive buff in the update. Their melee attacks are vicious against any vehicle and the toughest CC units.

Fiends are still probably a better all around choice, though they have far less survivability compared to the Screamers.

 

Bloodletter/Plague Bearers/Horrors/Daemonettes are all basically the same as they were before. Bloodletters got the Hellblade nerf but other than that it is business as usual. Personaly i prefer Plague Bearers and Bloodletter as my troop slot now, Fiends as my fast (maybe screamers but i still need to test them), and Flamers as my elite. This is just a personal preference as i choose to always represent the gods equally. The HQ is usually a cheap Herald thrown into another unit.

 

Just my two cents.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Well, you could try modelling a "human size" version of your DP that you could use as a Herald. I'm not sure how awkward the fluff would be, though, because the Daemons board flat ignored me when I asked about it.

When commenting on the daemon prince(ss) in The First Heretic ADB mentioned that daemon princes come in all shapes and sizes, it is Chaos after all.

 

An example of this is that I'm planning on having fluff on a daemon prince that switches back and forth between the size and shape of a regular marine and a full blown 'Hey Bloodthirster look at THIS axe' monstrous creature. I don't think there's a problem with a mini-daemon there :cuss

 

So go for it :rolleyes:

[miratupordonde]

thank you very much for your comments!

[Sception]

Note that fiends are elites, not fast. Seekers are pretty similar to fiends (especially if you throw a mounted herald in for hit and run), but not as durable point for point.

 

In HQ, the greater daemons range from good to decent. You can't really go wrong there, though the winged ones are fun for the FMC rules. Fateweaver, the special character lord of change, is particularly notable for his significant buff to nearby units (reroll armor, cover, & invulnerable), including allied CSMs.

 

The heralds are the cheaper alternative, and in games of 2k+ points you can get one of each alignment, which seems appealing for word bearers. Unfortunately, they're not all super good, being generally pretty limited in terms of defense, and not having champions in their units to eat challenges for them.

 

The slaaneshi one just got a debuff in that the new chariots are nowhere near as good a mount for them as the old chariot was. On the other hand, hit and run now passes to the unit, and since fleet no longer allows you to run and charge pavane is more valuable than before, so a slaaneshi herald can provide a solid, if costly, upgrade for a unit of daemonettes or seekers, even if they spend most combats cowering at the back of their unit due to denied challenges. The special character is interesting, and with the current targeting rules can really wreak the turn she drops with three pavanes at three different targets. But she's not an IC, so improved save or not, she will die the subsequent phase. Being a regular character helps, but not enough. If you run her alongside the fateweaver, though....

 

The khorne herald is a bit tougher & fightier, but generally doesn't compare too favorably with just spending the same points on khorne daemons. The Skulltaker special character is even more costly, but at least rocks house in challenges against enemy characters, giving him a worthwhile roll to distinguish himself. Convert him on a jugger for the stat buffs while maintaining IC status.

 

The nurgle herald is kind of worthless, and exists only as the cheapest obligatory HQ for a nurgle themed ally contingent. The special character is fantastic - but only for a purely nurgle force, which probably doesn't describe most Word Bearers armies.

 

The Tzeentch herald is a useful shooty choice. The chariot makes them awesome, but at this point I would expect it to be nerfed into uselessness, at least as a character mount, sometime in the future, based on the changes to slaaneshi chariots. The special character is also pretty good.

 

 

In elites you've got:

 

crushers: still really tough, but the power weapon nerf limits their effective targets. Oddly enough, they like to hang with the Tzeentch special character greater daemon.

 

Fiends: fast, killy, reasonably tough, probably the best elites choice now. They like to hang with the khornate special character greater daemon, but are still good on their own.

 

Flamers: good, but risky, since they need to land real close to the enemy to get their shots off, and generally die the next turn even if they do, and if you take anything over minimum size squads, then they get in each others way when shooting their flamers. Probably even with crushers.

 

Beasts of Nurgle: Bad. Ignore. Even if you're running tally, you've got better uses for the points.

 

 

Troops:

 

D.ettes: very killy, but very frail, so run large units if at all. Put them in your second half, and hope to have enemy shooty units tied up before they land.

 

Letters: killy, but the nerf to power weapons limits their choice of prey. They're good, but they might be more points than you need to spend on killing marines.

 

Horrors: shooty. Reasonably tough. And the special character upgrade is good. My prefered daemonic option for objective camping and anti-infantry, but then again you'll have CSMs and cultists for those jobs, so....

 

Plague Bearers: tough. Nothing else, just tough. Daemon armies use them to camp objectives, but you have marine units that can do that for similar cost while shooting stuff. Take if you're running tally, but as mentioned before, if you're Word Bearers you're probably not doing that.

 

Nurglings: actually pretty decent little pests, and nice new models. Take 'em or leave 'em.

 

 

Fast:

 

furies: they're fast, and they're undivided, which is fluffy. But they're not exactly a great use of points, due to limited offense & durability.

 

Hounds: ok, if you take the rending upgrade & rending special character.

 

Seekers: killy like daemonettes, & much faster, but just as fragile. A good unit, but take 10+ and be careful with them.

 

Hellflayers: pass, way to fragile. light pepperings of anti-infantry fire take it down, and it's too big/expensive to warrant it.

 

Screamers: stupid good since the update, they murder tanks and terminators in close combat (well, terminators that don't have storm shields, anyway). And they're reasonably tough and very fast. What more can you ask for?

 

 

Heavy:

 

Soul Grinder: it's like a tougher, deep striking defiler. If that's what you want, go for it.

 

Slaaneshi charriots: generally too fragile to be worthwhile, but the exalted ones could have some potential.

 

Daemon Prince: it's like ours, but with more options, and it can be an FMC, but costs way more. Good, but it's very easy to go overboard with these guys, try not to spend an arm and a leg. And if you've got open HQ slots in your CSM detachment, ask yourself if the FMC rules are really, really worth the extra cost.

 

 

 

 

For an average short range / melee focused undivided chaos marine army with daemonic allies, which is what I'm assuming you're going for as a Word Bearer's player, I'd be looking for speed and terminator-punching ability in my allies (while relying on fortifications for anti-air), which would lead me to favor Greater Daemons, the skulltaker, fiends, flamers, daemonettes, screamers, maybe horrors*, seekers, & princes. Basically, slaanesh & tzeentch daemons, though the skulltaker does make a case for itself, and could justify a bloodcrusher or bloodletter unit to escort him. Particularly if rumors about enforced challenges come into play - the skulltaker, when mounted, is a monster in challenges and could be used to eliminate threats that your lord wouldn't have the sense to run from.

 

How many points are you imagining yourself running in your allied detachment? How big is your overall army - do you generally hit the 2k mark for double ally slots?

[miratupordonde]

How many points are you imagining yourself running in your allied detachment? How big is your overall army - do you generally hit the 2k mark for double ally slots?

 

thank you very much for the bunch of information! I usually played 2K, but with the new rules I'm seeing that the points are being reduced to 1999 to avoid the duplication, so I would be counting on a unique detachment and would be expending no more than 650 points in the daemons...

[the jeske]

mal did unit per unit evaluation , I will try to do some synergy stuff.

 

For example . If you want to run a lot of termis [MoT for inv+4]fateweaver is what you want . If you want to try a chaozylla you now can do it too. 5 minimal demons for troops . fateweaver +demon prince[demon dex.easy with the upgrades] 2xDP[chaos sm dex] some defilers. double plas pms as main army troops. nice casual army.

 

If you want to go for something with synergy and good power . then screamers. horrors[think big unit. use like you would use termagants with a pod]. and a herald on the tzeench chariot . cheap and good in most builds .+ all the demons can use your icons.

[Sception]

I would trust Jeske over me for tactical & strategic advice. I know what the daemon units are and what they do from looking over their book and following tactical articles, but I'm short on first hand experience playing either with or against them. I had strongly considered them as a 'tide me over' army when I wanted to get back into 40k but just couldn't play the CSM book anymore, but went with Nids instead. Now that the ally rules are in place, I really wish I had gone with daemons after all.

 

Anyway, Jeske's advice of a tzeentch detachment - converted chariot herald (there isn't a model), mid to large unit of horrors (with the changeling, of course), and six to nine screamers should work well and fit your budget. However, you should be aware that the current rumors put the daemons codex at a little more than a year away, and at that time the chariot will likely no longer be an ideal mount for tzeentch heralds, if we judge by what happened to slaaneshi chariots. If a year of gaming and a cool display model is worth the cost and effort of the conversion, then go for it, because Tzeentch chariot heralds are great right now. Heck, you can take two for a single HQ slot (something else I imagine will change in the next book), so make two! After all, you can't worry too hard about what the next daemon codex will bring, GW's pendulum style game design means likely anything you pick that's good now won't be then anyway.

 

But if you're paranoid about such things as I am, then you might want to consider a Lord of Change, the Blue Scribes, just a regular herald.

 

 

A slaaneshi themed detachment could also work well, with a largish (12+) unit of daemonettes, six or so fiends (maybe converted out of leftover daemonettes and some fantasy goblin spider mounts), and either a herald (to give the daemonettes hit & run and pavane) or the masque (for the one turn of triple pavane + the current targeting rules to let you assassinate up to three squads worth of special weapon upgrades the turn she drops). That should still fit comfortably in your points budget.

 

 

A quick note - I had missed in the rule book that swarms still aren't scoring. Which means nurglings kind of don't do anything at all, so they aren't "take em or leave em", they're just "leave em". Nurgle daemons are kind or lousy unless you're going full nurgle with epidemius. In general, I'd just skip that whole alignment right now, fancy new models not withstanding.

[the jeske]

there isn't a model)

well technicly if you buy a blue scribe take the parts from the slany charriot and add 2 screamers you have a fully functional tzeench chariot . scribed and two screamers linked with a chain on a tervigon base work nice too .

 

 

 

Which means nurglings kind of don't do anything at all, so they aren't "take em or leave em", they're just "leave em

they are ok in an epid builds . +3FnP and buffed wounding on a swarm for low points is ok + they let you play with waves better . It aint good to have one bad and one good wave , too much luck involved in to wining.

[Sception]

well technicly if you buy a blue scribe take the parts from the slany charriot and add 2 screamers you have a fully functional tzeench chariot . scribed and two screamers linked with a chain on a tervigon base work nice too .

The blue scribes are pretty distinct, between their whole being two of them and their 'desk of tzeentch' mount. I'd recommend either using the regular herald on disk chained to two screamers, or just put a spare horror model on a screamer and chain it two two more screamers. Screamers do come in boxes of three, after all. Either way, comments on this being a 'borrowed time' conversion still apply.

 

 

 

they are ok in an epid builds . +3FnP and buffed wounding on a swarm for low points is ok + they let you play with waves better . It aint good to have one bad and one good wave , too much luck involved in to wining.

I think the waves thing won't matter quite as much for an allied detachment, since you'll be deploying the bulk of your force as usual anyway. And yeah, they're (a lot) better in a tally build, though I think we're still going with the assumption that the OP isn't running the tally, due to being a word bearers player and thus going for a predominantly undivided force for their primary detachment, at least theoretically.

[darth_giles]

The blue scribes are pretty distinct, between their whole being two of them and their 'desk of tzeentch' mount. I'd recommend either using the regular herald on disk chained to two screamers, or just put a spare horror model on a screamer and chain it two two more screamers. Screamers do come in boxes of three, after all. Either way, comments on this being a 'borrowed time' conversion still apply.

What about digging up a plastic Tomb Kings chariot, cutting off the yoke and chaining it to the screamers, and then putting it on a stumpy flight base? It'd require a fair shake of drilling and pinning, but it'd probably be worth it and it'd certainly look the part.

[Sception]

Sure, sure, however you want to do it is great. Google search "Tzeentch herald on chariot" and you'll see plenty of different conversion examples.

 

My personal favorite, if only for sheer, mind rending, alien insanity, is this one:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/waargh/Minitures/P1110055.jpg

 

from waargh's Cubes of Tzeentch.

[the jeske]

And they said I was crazy talking about a counts as army made of stones :)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

And they said I was crazy talking about a counts as army made of stones :)

I don't normally agree with you, Jeske, but pretty much. I've seen a Tzeentch army made of various eyeballs. That's cool, eyeballs can have personality. This? Not so much ;)

 

Being random doesn't make one awesome. It just makes one random.

[Sception]

I can deal with a lack of personality on an individual model scale if the army has personality as a whole, and that cube army, in the group pics, definitely has a unique personality. Bizarre, alien, and unknowable, exactly the kind of thing I would expect to get killed by when venturing into an impossible psychic alien dreamscape dimension like the warp. Then again, I liked tyranids and old necrons for the same reasons. Apparently GW doesn't think that fits in 40k, since necrons have been replaced by space tomb kings, and the nids are now full of unique individuals with their own identities and personalities apart from the hive.

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to start an argument about the cubes, merely to indicate that the sky's the limit when it comes to chariot herald conversions, and that google image search is your friend, with a ton of potential conversion ideas.

[the jeske]

That's cool, eyeballs can have personality

probably a 4th ed gimik army . back then you the rules said you draw line sight from models eyes to opposing models body[no sniping of weapons, banners ,hands , boots sticking out etc]. So people were making chaos marines with long eye stalks hide them behind a wall/rhino/etc shot at someone and when they tried to shot back it was "you cant, cant draw LoS to body of my model" a model made just out of an eye would be untargetable by shoting . good tech too.

 

but this is probably too much of an offtopic already.

[darth_giles]

I can deal with a lack of personality on an individual model scale if the army has personality as a whole, and that cube army, in the group pics, definitely has a unique personality. Bizarre, alien, and unknowable, exactly the kind of thing I would expect to get killed by when venturing into an impossible psychic alien dreamscape dimension like the warp. Then again, I liked tyranids and old necrons for the same reasons.

Agreed, the Cubic Horrors of Tzeentch are definitely something you could expect to see from the Patterner.

 

Apparently GW doesn't think that fits in 40k, since necrons have been replaced by space tomb kings, and the nids are now full of unique individuals with their own identities and personalities apart from the hive.

Dunno about the Tyranids, but the Tomb Kings In Space was always a valid interpretation of the Necrons, albeit one that was largely ignored. Players gave no attention to the fact that individual Lords had almost complete autonomy and their old Necrontyr personalities. So I'm all with GW rewriting the Necron codex into something more interesting.

 

It also makes them a lot more characterful as opponents, because you aren't just doing the usual blah "deathwatch tomb raid" or "necron attack" scenarios. They actually have objectives now, and it allows actual back-and-forth. For example, imagine the grudge match if Trazyn were to collect a few dozen of Abbadon's choicest Terminators for a diorama on the Siege of Terra?

[The Colossus]

I can deal with a lack of personality on an individual model scale if the army has personality as a whole, and that cube army, in the group pics, definitely has a unique personality. Bizarre, alien, and unknowable, exactly the kind of thing I would expect to get killed by when venturing into an impossible psychic alien dreamscape dimension like the warp. Then again, I liked tyranids and old necrons for the same reasons.

Agreed, the Cubic Horrors of Tzeentch are definitely something you could expect to see from the Patterner.

 

They fit exactly with my idea of Tzeentch. Mesmerising, changing yet ordered. I find it impossible to have empathy with them- they're not anthropomorphic, nor even bestial, they're really abstract and that makes them disturbing. It's a brilliant idea in my opinion.

 

Apparently GW doesn't think that fits in 40k, since necrons have been replaced by space tomb kings, and the nids are now full of unique individuals with their own identities and personalities apart from the hive.

Dunno about the Tyranids, but the Tomb Kings In Space was always a valid interpretation of the Necrons, albeit one that was largely ignored. Players gave no attention to the fact that individual Lords had almost complete autonomy and their old Necrontyr personalities. So I'm all with GW rewriting the Necron codex into something more interesting.

 

It also makes them a lot more characterful as opponents, because you aren't just doing the usual blah "deathwatch tomb raid" or "necron attack" scenarios. They actually have objectives now, and it allows actual back-and-forth. For example, imagine the grudge match if Trazyn were to collect a few dozen of Abbadon's choicest Terminators for a diorama on the Siege of Terra?

 

Wonder if he'd get a Golden Demon if he entered the diorama? ;)

 

I like both iterations of Necrons. I guess its easier to come up with a narrative now, but I did like the mostly faceless killer robot vibe. Eh, they don't pop up much in my area, so it doesn't affect me much I guess.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

but this is probably too much of an offtopic already.

Agreed, and my bad. Though I will say I still don't agree with you Malisteen, but maybe because I don't know what the Patterner that Darth Giles is referencing is. But that's just my taste, and you can have yours... as bad as it is :unsure:

 

Back on topic in 3... 2... 1... ;)

[darth_giles]

but this is probably too much of an offtopic already.

Agreed, and my bad. Though I will say I still don't agree with you Malisteen, but maybe because I don't know what the Patterner that Darth Giles is referencing is. But that's just my taste, and you can have yours... as bad as it is :)

I could've sworn that was one of Tzeentch's titles, but I can't seem to find the reference. I thought it was somewhere in the 3rd edition BBB.

[Caffeineated Chaos]

but this is probably too much of an offtopic already.

Agreed, and my bad. Though I will say I still don't agree with you Malisteen, but maybe because I don't know what the Patterner that Darth Giles is referencing is. But that's just my taste, and you can have yours... as bad as it is :o

I could've sworn that was one of Tzeentch's titles, but I can't seem to find the reference. I thought it was somewhere in the 3rd edition BBB.

I've read it in a few places too, could've sworn it was somewhere in the Chaos Daemons codex... hmmmm

[*Furyou Miko]

Sounds more Princes of Amber than 40k to me, but I think it's actually from the old Malus Darkblade WHFB comic.