Cmdr Shepard Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Greetings Battle Brothers, Since the the new overwatch rule become effective with the release of the 6th edition I tried to add some flamers/heavy flamers to several units in order to maximaze the effectiveness of overwatch via "wall of the death". What's your opinion on using flamer weapons as "charge demotivators"? Do you think losing a ranged weapon is worth the benefit from the d3 overwatch hits? I suppose for a unit tasked to hold an objective far from the front lines (a tactical squad, for example) it could be a nice addition to the squad's weaponery but what about the units tasked to lead the main attack? My Sternguard units, for example, are currently equiped with 3 combi-flame and 1 heavy flamer. Do you think a heavy flamer for a shooting unit like sternguard would be a waste? After all the heavy flamer will remian unused for the most part of the match and with the same points I could buy a plasma gun. It's here just for the wall of death. Thanks for your assistance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black.Hunter Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 The Heavy Flamer does give that extra power for hitting more units but you do lose the tactical versatility of the Special Issue Ammo which has saved me more than once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3138270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingkaneda Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I think the flamer wall of death works best for units who use their flamers anyway. You flame them in your turn, creat a wall of flame in thier turn. On sternguard it is a nice idea to give them a 50 point charge deterent, but that means they cant take plasma or melta combis. Half on half doesnt seem as effective to me. 4-5 combi flamers as charge deterent, wouldnt deter me. Thats only about 4-5 wounds, and 1-2 kills against marines...possibly 1 against termies. 10 combiflamers are pretty scary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3138271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black.Hunter Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 10 combiflamers are pretty scary. This is your best approach as you keep the flame and the Ammo. It is a good all-rounder and you keep your moves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3138272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I had a unit of 7 Sternguard with 6 combi-flamers go unmolested until the last turn of a game, when they were charged by Tyranid Warriors (Genestealers avoided them like the plague, and the MCs were elsewhere), while the Sternguard themselves harassed most of the Tyranid army with Hellfire rounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3138276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I think that in general they can be a great charge de-motivator, flamers that is. In regards to Sternguard, last edition heavy flamers were a great choice in a mech game, why would they be worst now when there's more infantry? True, rapid fire weapons got better, but so did template weapons with wall of death. Sternguard are commonly a frontline unit, and will get charged, having some flamer weapons can help. However, I'd just take the heavy flamer and then keep their offensive options open with combi-plasmas and combi-meltas, I don't like to plan on being charged with weapons upgrades. Other units, especially objective holders, can benefit from a flamer or combi-flamer as well. So they're a decent choice, but do remember you're planning on being charged. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3138292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 As a "demotivator," I think they'll fail. The fact is that an assault unit wants to be in an assault, and any player worth their salt isn't going to let the threat of casualties deter them from launching their charge. In terms of utility when employed in Overwatch, however, I can certainly agree that they have their uses, and can help to even the odds a little bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3138385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 I have read your replies and you all have very good points. My only concern about heavy flamer in sternguard units is the fact I'll have a 35 pts model that will not do a lot until the unit will be close to the enemy, perhaps closer then it likes. Currently my two 8 men sternguard units have 3 combi-melta and 3 combi-flamer each. I could give combi-flamer to all of them but I thought some combi-melta can still be useful. However considered the current attitude towards vehicles in 6th and the fact they will need to be within 6" from the vehicle to use them; combi-flamer for everyone could be a nice idea. I could use two plasma guns for each squad to counter 2+ save models. The 6 combi-flamer will be used when the unit get charged for 6d3 wall of death attacks. What do you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3138538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I think well find that people pick up the fantasy tactic of redirecting and absorbing this kind of fire with sacrificial units- sure, you can overwatch, but that killa khan doesnt give a :D about your heavy flamers- then meet the wrath of the stormboyz that fly in afterwords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3139160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 I think well find that people pick up the fantasy tactic of redirecting and absorbing this kind of fire with sacrificial units- sure, you can overwatch, but that killa khan doesnt give a :) about your heavy flamers- then meet the wrath of the stormboyz that fly in afterwords. So, you are saying it's better to give those models other weapons instead of heavy flamers, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3139259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 What is being said is that flamers are "nice to have" for when you are assualted - but don't let it dominant your thinking in your strategy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3139716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 What is being said is that flamers are "nice to have" for when you are assualted - but don't let it dominant your thinking in your strategy. Good point. I think a plasma gun is a more versatile chioce for units like sternguard while a flamer in tactical unit is a good choice, cheaper than many other upgrades, to assists overwatch duties. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3139721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 What is being said is that flamers are "nice to have" for when you are assualted - but don't let it dominant your thinking in your strategy. Good point. I think a plasma gun is a more versatile chioce for units like sternguard while a flamer in tactical unit is a good choice, cheaper than many other upgrades, to assists overwatch duties. Bannus is spot on, but also what Im saying is that you shouldnt be building your models for what works now- you should be planning ahead for whats going to work for atleast the next three or four years. While heavy flamers might hit hard theyre going to be very situational after the first two games you use them in, and only more so as time goes on. Are they a bad investment? Probly not- but they wouldnt be at the top of my list for must-haves either, especially given the price of converting them over for sterngaurd squads.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3140034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 , especially given the price of converting them over for sterngaurd squads.... I used Dread's heavy flamers for my conversions. I cut a "tube" and I glued the weapon on the "grip arm" from a Tactical Squad kit and I got two heavy flamers at no additional cost. I use my sterguards as "deatwatch kill teams" so with some additional bits I made a veteran-looking mini with heavy flamer. Back on the tactical aspect I believe plasma guns are indeed a better choice. Same cost bit with the chance to threaten TDA modles and vehicles (a part from AV14, of course) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3141516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekLee688 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 , especially given the price of converting them over for sterngaurd squads.... I used Dread's heavy flamers for my conversions. I cut a "tube" and I glued the weapon on the "grip arm" from a Tactical Squad kit and I got two heavy flamers at no additional cost. I use my sterguards as "deatwatch kill teams" so with some additional bits I made a veteran-looking mini with heavy flamer. Back on the tactical aspect I believe plasma guns are indeed a better choice. Same cost bit with the chance to threaten TDA modles and vehicles (a part from AV14, of course) I'm going to use GK PA incinerators for kit bashed Heavy flamers, got them cheap off of bit sites. Need to pick up some guitar wire for fuel lines and find something in my bits bin or mechwarrior clix collection for fuel tanks. If the extra attack sterguard get, on top of 5+ combi flamers, and 1 heavy flamer doesn't act as charge demotivators then the extra HF won't help. However, if you are using your SG as assaulters vs. cron/tau/guard, you probably don't need an extra HF, but when being assaulted by nid/orks/eldar/dark eldar/daemons/cultists/scouts/etc. you want SG to hurt them as much as possible, lets face it, SG are probably the most painful thing to assault in C:SM because of the firepower they can take on top of them being MEQ with +1attack. SG who operate with the intent on double tapping 12" weapons and 6" combi meltas should plan for taking the assault. The only time you wouldn't is if you are using them as a demi devestator squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3144164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I use earlier edition flamer pistols and just glue them to the marine's thigh for use as combiflamers (mag locked to the armor so to speak). Works cool for marines with power fists (whom I give the combiflamer to). So they still hold a bolter too. Paint the flamer fuel cannister in a brighter color, put it on your army list...what else do you need?.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3144331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunCat Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I use Furioso Dred with frag cannon and HF is the ultimate choice :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3144653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughingdagger Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Only problem is I don't think you can overwatch with the frag cannon, as it isn't a flamer? Not sure if the D3 hits on overwatch is ONLY for flamers, gotta check. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3144668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunCat Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Yes, we can! :devil: See p.52 "Template weapons can fire Overwatch..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3144718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughingdagger Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 OOH DIRTY DIRTY! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257962-flamers-as-charge-demotivators/#findComment-3144774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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