Black.Hunter Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Now I know it is referred to as the Horus Heresy I believe it all may be the Emperors fault in the end. Now before you scream 'burn the heretic' the Emperor did punish Lorgar for his worship and so he set out to find another being(s) to worship. He found Chaos. After his lap-dog Erebus did a bit of wizadry :P on Horus he fell and thus the Heresy began. But this wouldn't have happened had the Emperor allowed Lorgar to continue worship of him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Who's fault was the heresy?!?! The Chaos Gods'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black.Hunter Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yes. But Lorgar would not have discovered them if he didn't look. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Traben Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 The Emperor could have handled things differently with Lorgar. The destruction of Monarchia, and humiliating the Word Bearers in front of a group of astartes from another legion was one of the many mistakes done by the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 The Emperor's. Â Take Angron, for instance. You could build an Olympus Mons of skulls and spraypaint "For the Blood God!" with blood all over it, and that still wouldn't scream "Khorne bait" as much as Angron's very existence. There is only one sensible course of action the moment one realizes the Butcher's nails could not be removed - mercy kill. Â Angron's the most glaring example, but the other traitor primarchs also always had chaos written all over them, maybe except Horus and Alpharius/Omegon. Â Really, the Horus Heresy should be renamed the Galactic Duh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black.Hunter Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 the Galactic Duh. Â Doesn't quite have the same devastating, nearly tore humanity apart ring though. Â What will the stories be?? Â "I remember one time during the great 'Duh'........... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yes. But Lorgar would not have discovered them if he didn't look. The Chaos Gods had already influenced several Primarchs in their incubator capsules. If it had not been Lorgar or Erebus or whatever, it would have been someone else. The traitor Primarchs would always have fallen to Chaos, even if you removed any of those minor pieces. Neither Lorgar nor Erebus set anything in motion by their own free will. They did as they were told. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black.Hunter Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Did they however influence Horus. Was it is brother or has the seeds been sown? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Angron's the most glaring example, but the other traitor primarchs also always had chaos written all over them, maybe except Horus and Alpharius/Omegon. Â Perturabo? Magnus? Lorgar? Fulgrim? Â Lorgar and Fulgrim were once two of the most loyal Primarchs out of them all, it's purely because of later events that they turned. Magnus could have been dealt with better, rather than "now trust Daddy, leave that stuff alone", and Perturabo got increasingly bitter as the Crusade went on, and could have been dealt with far better. Realise that he hates being splitting his Legion into garrison duties, and that's one less thing for him to twist in his mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Angron's the most glaring example, but the other traitor primarchs also always had chaos written all over them, maybe except Horus and Alpharius/Omegon. Â Perturabo? Magnus? Lorgar? Fulgrim? Â Lorgar and Fulgrim were once two of the most loyal Primarchs out of them all, it's purely because of later events that they turned. Magnus could have been dealt with better, rather than "now trust Daddy, leave that stuff alone", and Perturabo got increasingly bitter as the Crusade went on, and could have been dealt with far better. Realise that he hates being splitting his Legion into garrison duties, and that's one less thing for him to twist in his mind. Â With his upbringing and fascination with theology, Lorgar always stood for the very opposite of the Imperial Truth. Gulliman even says that the emp should have fed him to Russ. Ain't that the truth. Â Fulgrim - the insatiable perfectionist, the man who turned a cinder of a planet into an art gallery. Â Magnus was what, the second most powerful psyker in the Imperium? Like a juicy steak tossed into a shark cage then. Â As for Perturabo - sieges suck. A lot. They can bring the most resilient man to his knees, or to a berzerker-like rage. If someone's a siege specialist, you'd better watch him closely for the slightest crack. This is hardly military academy level knowledge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Well, shoot me. I give up. It's all ms fault. So blame me.:D Â Seriously, I think it's the Emperor's fault in the end. Made the Primarchs in the first Place. After being scattered across the Galaxy, doesn' t Take the time to Check in them and let' s lead mankind's most powerful Military. Doesn't tell them enough to understand or at least to trust in his Big plan. Some saviour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yes, it's the Emperor's fault that the Primarchs did not do what he expected of them, and instead were manipulated by the Chaos Gods. Totally his fault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yes, it's the Emperor's fault that the Primarchs did not do what he expected of them, and instead were manipulated by the Chaos Gods. Totally his fault. Â Stop being sarcastic. Of course most of the blame lies on the Chaos Gods. But if you failed in your goal because you refused to see that at least one of your tools was irreparably broken and about half of the others would break sooner rather than later, you have to take a hard look at yourself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 If Lorgar had not been such a whiny "I'm Mad at my daddy!" little baby and did what he was told by his creator/boss/god/lord then he would not have gotten all poopy and went looking for something to worship...... I dont really like Lorgar as a Primarch he is the weakest I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yes, it's the Emperor's fault that the Primarchs did not do what he expected of them, and instead were manipulated by the Chaos Gods. Totally his fault. Â Stop being sarcastic. Of course most of the blame lies on the Chaos Gods. But if you failed in your goal because you refused to see that at least one of your tools was irreparably broken and about half of the others would break sooner rather than later, you have to take a hard look at yourself. Â I do not think the blame lies with the Emperor, but rather the failings of the Primarchs themselves. There was little evidence that the Primarchs would "break" sooner or later, especially since Horus numbered amongst the traitors. And it seemed like the Emperor had a plan for dealing with wayward Legions as well, if the hints as to the Lost Two during the HH novels are any indication. Â The Primarchs, all of them, served the Imperium loyally for decades to centuries depending on when they were picked up. They were not children or mere tools, they were the uniquely gene-crafted scions of the Emperor. And they WORKED. They worked brilliantly. Â The issue lay in the Primarchs themselves, not the Emperor. The Emperor telling Magnus to TRUST him and expecting him to obey as he had in all things before? Business as usual. One would PRESUME a hyper brilliant individual would have done just that. But Magnus own foolish pride damned him. Â As for Angron, I am inclined to agree. Should have been put down like the rabid beast he was. Same with Lorgar, the useless simpering weakling. But again, even these flawed Primarch's worked for years, tallying many victories. They did their duty and brought world upon world into the fold. Â Perturabo failings were his own. Plain and simple. Yes, sieges are difficult and grinding, but only so much as a life dedicated to battle that all the Legions endured. Some even exalted in it. We can examine other Legions in similar situations and see how they did not buckled under pressure. Most salient is perhaps the Imperial Fists, the Iron Warriors "opposite number" as it were. Siege work and garrison duty does not seem to be wearing them down. Then we have the Ultramarines. They stopped and garrisoned (near) every planet they stopped on and enjoyed massive recruitment drives as a result. A simple request for R and R would have been all it took. Â The Primarchs were living demi gods and helped forged the greatest empire since the days of the Eldar. By most standards, that would be judged quite the success. And that is the point of the Heresy. It was unexpected. The Primarchs served faithfully and performed admirably. Then it all went bad. Â It was not the Emperor's fault they failed and faltered. It was not "bad parenting" or that he did not treat the hyper intelligent centuries old superbeings as emotional stunted retard children that turned them. Recall that even Horus, best and brightest, became corrupt through the machinations of the Chaos Gods. The Emperor's methods worked well enough to drag mankind from near extinction to the brink of apotheosis. The failings of the Primarchs lay with them or arguably the Chaos Gods, if we are removing personal responsibility from the Primarchs. Â Hard look at the Emperor? Did bloody amazing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 It always disheartens me when people feel the need to flock to defend the Emperor (or Guilliman) when people are trying to find darker interptations for their cahracters. This is 40K, this is not Black & White, this is Grey & Black. Even the most heroic individual needs to be a complete scumbag, or we can all go back to reading My Little Pony picture books. Everyone - including Emperor. Including Guilliman. Â Hm, maybe Vulcan is a decent chap at heart. But he's the sole exception to the rule :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 The "grim" part about good characters such as the Emperor and Guilliman is that they are incapacitated and unable to do anything about the dire situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 It always disheartens me when people feel the need to flock to defend the Emperor (or Guilliman) when people are trying to find darker interptations for their cahracters. This is 40K, this is not Black & White, this is Grey & Black. Even the most heroic individual needs to be a complete scumbag, or we can all go back to reading My Little Pony picture books. Everyone - including Emperor. Including Guilliman. Hm, maybe Vulcan is a decent chap at heart. But he's the sole exception to the rule :D  As a real Life Soldier I know that if I disobey orders from my superiors there are consequences, What Lorgar did what tantamount to the gravest crime in the fledgling Imperium "No Religeon" as laid out by the Emperor. Lorgar disregarded this rule, he got in trouble and punished. If he were a stronger character he would have said "Roger" saluted the flag and continued the mission, instead he disgraced himself and showed poor leadership by dragging his subordinates down the road of damnation by not only finding "New Gods" but spreading their taint amongst the Legions in the lodges. So Lorgar = Crappy soldier. If I were the Emperor I would have executed him and sent his legion on a penitent crusade under the watchful eye of a not so forgiving legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 As a reserve Real Life Soldier, I mostly hid in the laundryroom while I was in the Ahrmee. Â *out of nowhere, Status Quo starts playing* Â And now that Real Life Soldiering is out of the way: Â Lorgar being a tosspot and the 40K equivalent of a Frank Burns combined with Beetle Bailey is not here or there. The point is that Emps is a tosspot too. And Roboute. And Alpharius. And Fulgrim. Everyone. There should be no unambiguous good and proper goody two shoes chracters in 40K. Not a single one. Everyone is a jerk. Â With the possible sole exception of Vulcan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 As a real Life Soldier I know that if I disobey orders from my superiors there are consequences, What Lorgar did what tantamount to the gravest crime in the fledgling Imperium "No Religeon" as laid out by the Emperor. Lorgar disregarded this rule, he got in trouble and punished. If he were a stronger character he would have said "Roger" saluted the flag and continued the mission, instead he disgraced himself and showed poor leadership by dragging his subordinates down the road of damnation by not only finding "New Gods" but spreading their taint amongst the Legions in the lodges. So Lorgar = Crappy soldier. If I were the Emperor I would have executed him and sent his legion on a penitent crusade under the watchful eye of a not so forgiving legion. Â Totally in agreement here. Yes, the chaos Powers are treacherous bastards. But the Emperor knew it. And when Lorgar turns around and begins searching for some other God, he should have put him down. Period. did it before. Does with Magnus later. But Lorgar gets to stump his nose at the Imperial Truth and the NO RELIGION line AND has the remains of a bloody religious fundamentalist cult into his legion leadership ( I`m looking at you KOR !). And the Emperor sends Papa Smurf to destroy their shiny city of worship and puts them in the dirt and then expects them to behave like good little soldiers. Which they haven`t been for the whole bloody crusade. So Emperor`s faults : Using warp tricks in making primarchs. Indecisive Leadership and poor judgement when it counted. Â BTW I like that about the whole Dornian Heresy thing. They are all flawed in the end. If it hadn`t been Horus, would have been someone else. Â OR MAYBE It`s not the Emperor`s Fault. He was just very very very much led astray and blindend by the machinations of the Chaos Gods over a very long time. So no blame here. Just an unwitting tool. How would you bootlicking loyalist dogs like that? :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Or this was the best future the Emperor could foresee, and OH SNAP THIS WAS PLANNED Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Blaming the Chaos Gods is like blaming the sea... Â Blaming the primarchs is like blaming the ships... Â No... you must blame the man who took unworthy vessels into the storm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Hard look at the Emperor? Did bloody amazing. Â Very much in agreement on this matter. Â At the risk of echoing what you have said, here are my thoughts. The chaos gods and the primarchs are most certainly at fault here. Â Angron: The Emperor tried to reason with him when they met, explaining the scope of things in the galaxy. However, Angron was tenaciously attached to the idea of staying with his rebel gladiators to the end in a very much suicidal situation, which forced the Emperor's hand. The Emperor isn't dumb. Throughout his millenia long existence I think it's safe to assume he has seen very bloody Alamo-type battles before and hell, he was probably at the Alamo personally for all we know. He KNOWS Angron will fail. Yes, he could step in and help his son, but he probably can judge the character of the primarch just by glancing at them. Angron's pride would have been hurt and nothing would have come of it. The Emperor has not the time to deal with his son's ignorant foolishness when there is a galaxy out there where billions are in desperate need of the primarch's leadership in the fight. Yes, the Emperor was a bit cold dumping Angron with his fleet forcing him to abandon his friends, but after 200 years one would expect a "hyper brilliant individual" (borrowing UC's phrase) would grasp the scope and necessity of the Imperium's galactic crusade for mankind. Get over it Angron. But alas, his rage implants really retarded his hyper brilliance. Â Curze: Drove himself mad due to ominous visions and his fellow primarchs didn't really help his ill at ease(I'm looking at you Dorn). One can't really fault the Emperor on this one. Curze even allowed himself to be killed because he knew what a monster he had become. "Death is nothing compared to vindication." Imo, he's the only traitor primarch worth a damn because he had the decency to realize what he and his legion had become and off himself. Ave Dominus Nox! Â Lorgar: As your commanding officer I order you not to do X. *subordinate does X and gets punished* Waaah, CO isn't who I thought he was. Lorgar should have had the spine to realize he was wrong and move on striving to do better, but alas he was manipulated by lesser mens' drivel (Kor, Erebus, etc) and the Chaos Gods, of course. If Lorgar really adored the Emperor as he often pontificated then he should have changed himself for his father, not selfishly expected the reverse. But alas, it was his damn obsession with spirituality that drove him. He actively paved his own path to damnation. Â Fulgrim: He found a sword that whispered dirty thoughts into his head and he went along with it. How is that the Emperor's fault? Sure the Emperor could have warned them about chaos, but would it have really made a difference? Chaos in 40k still corrupts once devout Emperor worshipers. Â Magnus: Same situation as Fulgrim. Had Magnus known and even understood the dangers of sorcery and chaos he still would have tried to toy with it. Unfortunately, his curiosity and pride as a damn good psyker was always stronger than his loyalty to the Emperor. The Emperor asked Magnus to trust him. He didn't do so and didn't even accept the consequences of his actions in the end. Such is the price for using sorcery even for noble deeds. Sad story, but he didn't have the decency to off himself like that badass Curze. Â Mortarion: He was always messed in the head, lol. Too much gas I suppose. So the Emperor beat you at killing your mean ol' adoptive father? Get over it. You accepted a challenge and lost to a being hundreds of times better than you. There's no reason to hold a grudge for over 200 years after supposedly seeing the scope of the galactic crusade and fighting to liberate humanity from various evils. Is it the Emperor's fault for whiny behavior? Â Horus: Obvious chaos god influence. Â Perturabo: He was always a sour puss. Perhaps his brother primarchs could have been more responsive to their brother's needs(I'm looking at you Dorn... again)? He would have been loads cooler if he just did his dirty siege/ trench warfare duty like a good soldier: neither wanting praise nor credit, just doing his duty for mankind. Unfortunately, he was not that type of primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Blaming the Chaos Gods is like blaming the sea... Blaming the primarchs is like blaming the ships...  No... you must blame the man who took unworthy vessels into the storm.  Primarchs are not ships. They are men, living, breathing, thinking just like the Emperor. They are captains of mankind's ideals charged with crossing an ocean of hardships to reach a better land for humanity. Mutiny broke the ships and scattered mankind amongst the sea to drown. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I do feel kind of bad for Peterabo, He thought he was the best at siege warfare and made amazing fortresses and he got passed over by Dorn. When you think you are the best and get passed over it does suck. If I were the Emperor I would have had Dorn and ol Peterabo make the palace as a joint venture, basically force them to work together as brothers... Might have made the fortress truly unbreachable and might have kept the iron warriors loyal. and split garrison duties between the two legions! Do a tour of duty rotation cycle like we do now. Would have made a cool story as well, Dorn and Peterabo start out as bitter brothers and realize how similar they are and actually become close. I would have loved to see that, would have made the siege of Terra pretty bland though, between Walls made by Dorn and Killzones made by Peterabo I dont forsee too many traitors even getting close enough to even attempt a breach lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/#findComment-3138830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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