Who's fault was the heresy?!?!

[Legatus]

The Horus Heresy: Half of the Primarchs betray the Emperor and instead side with the Chaos Powers.

 

Who is to blame? The Chaos Powers for seducing the Primarchs? The Primarchs for giving in and betraying their creator and their charges?

 

No, the Emperor for not seeing it coming!

 

 

The more important question here of course is: How is one supposed to not treat such statements sarcastically?

[Captain Rolunde]

Games Workshop, end of story.

 

The rest is facts overridden by opinions opposed by counter points and muddled by mislead beliefs by everyone else that does not share your opinion. =p

 

~R~

 

If you want a more fluffy answer, IMO > Lorgar mostly.

 

Look at it this way. Even if the Emperor loaded a gun and left it next to his pillow, is it the Emporor's "fault" if Lorgar shoots himself in the head?

 

Is it the Adeptus of Mars fault for making the gun?

 

Or is it Lorgar's for picking up the gun, putting it to his head, and pulling the trigger?

 

haha, talk about opening a can of worms here....

 

I am sure there will be those that don't see it as I do, that's just my take on it.

[Wade Garrett]

The Emperor brought quite a few of his problems on himself (letting the Ad Mech worship him as the Omnissiah while slapping Lorgar down, leaving Angron's comrades to die, Magnus and the Edict of Nikea in general, not to mention hiding the existence of the Ruinous Powers from all of the Primarchs and refusing to tell anyone why he abandoned the Great Crusade) but seeing as how the Primordial Annilihator was actively conniving to create a grim dark future where there is only war and the laughter of the thirsting gods....yeah.

 

And while it seems to be the fashion to blame poor Aurelian, we shouldn't let Horus off the hook so easily. Yes, he was lied to. Yes, he was on the brink of death. But then, so were Manus and Sanguinus, and they chose going out with boots on vs being the lickspittle of the Lords of Chaos. Sure, he thought he was saving us all from a future of grim darkness etc. etc., just like Lorgar thought the truth of the Gods would make the average Imperial citizen's life better and Alpharius saw (still sees?) strings stretching from his Legion to Chaos and thought himself the puppeteer. The road to Hell may be paved with the best of intentions, but if you keep putting one foot in front of the other on it, guess where it leads. Come on, just guess.

[Legatus]

The Emperor brought quite a few of his problems on himself (letting the Ad Mech worship him as the Omnissiah while slapping Lorgar down, leaving Angron's comrades to die, Magnus and the Edict of Nikea in general, not to mention hiding the existence of the Ruinous Powers from all of the Primarchs and refusing to tell anyone why he abandoned the Great Crusade)

And people actually argue that the 2nd to 4th Edition lore was "written by game designers who often did not know what they were doing", even though most of the issues pointed out above did not exist back then, and are purely the result of Black Library retcons.

 

In GW lore, Lorgar was reprimanded for being making slow progress, not for worship. The edict of Nikaea only banned sorcery, not psychic abilities. One of the main purposes of the Great Crusade was to liberate human worlds from the clutches of Chaos. And the Emperor returned to Terra to prepare for ruling a galaxy spanning empire. But I guess this lore lacked hypocricy, controversy and irony. So now everything the Emperor did was in some way terrible.

[jeremy1391]

In GW lore, Lorgar was reprimanded for being making slow progress, not for worship. The edict of Nikaea only banned sorcery, not psychic abilities. One of the main purposes of the Great Crusade was to liberate human worlds from the clutches of Chaos. And the Emperor returned to Terra to prepare for ruling a galaxy spanning empire. But I guess this lore lacked hypocricy, controversy and irony. So now everything the Emperor did was in some way terrible.

 

After Nikaea all the chapters who used Librarians stripped them of title and told them not to use their powers, they put them back in line companies as regular old battle brothers. It is mentioned in several stories, Librarians were not openly used again until Gulliman wrote the Codex Astartes.

[jaxjace]

I do feel kind of bad for Peterabo, He thought he was the best at siege warfare and made amazing fortresses and he got passed over by Dorn. When you think you are the best and get passed over it does suck. If I were the Emperor I would have had Dorn and ol Peterabo make the palace as a joint venture, basically force them to work together as brothers... Might have made the fortress truly unbreachable and might have kept the iron warriors loyal. and split garrison duties between the two legions! Do a tour of duty rotation cycle like we do now. Would have made a cool story as well, Dorn and Peterabo start out as bitter brothers and realize how similar they are and actually become close. I would have loved to see that, would have made the siege of Terra pretty bland though, between Walls made by Dorn and Killzones made by Peterabo I dont forsee too many traitors even getting close enough to even attempt a breach lol.

 

 

I dont think there would be a force in the universe that could breach that...

[jaxjace]

the blame lies with chaos at the bottom line.

[Unintentional Batman]

But I guess this lore lacked hypocricy, controversy and irony. So now everything the Emperor did was in some way terrible.

 

And the setting is so much better for that. What is the reason to pretend we are reading about grimdark universe, if the Emperor is a faultless, goody-two-shoes bore? He needs to be a ruthless son of a bitch with very few, if any, redeeming qualities. Just like every other character in the lore.

 

Except maybe Vul *is shot midsentence*

[Zynk Kaladin]

But I guess this lore lacked hypocricy, controversy and irony. So now everything the Emperor did was in some way terrible.

 

And the setting is so much better for that. What is the reason to pretend we are reading about grimdark universe, if the Emperor is a faultless, goody-two-shoes bore? He needs to be a ruthless son of a bitch with very few, if any, redeeming qualities. Just like every other character in the lore.

 

Except maybe Vul *is shot midsentence*

 

I strongly disagree. You can't have a grimdark setting without something noblelight to base it on. The very nature of grimdark is tragedy and one most certainly can't have a tragedy when everything is just plain ruthless. The grimdark setting has no meaning without heroes to fall and good guys to die. The Emperor is supposed to be a paragon for mankind's enlightenment and advancement, a beacon of hope for mankind to rise up and become something great. Yes he may do some ruthless things, but all is for the goal of a brighter future far from the hells mankind creates he has personally witnessed through out the millenia. The tragedy of the Emperor's dream crashing around him, his noble intentions brought low by traitors, the betrayal and loss of his most beloved son... these are the catalyst for the grimdark setting of 40k.

 

And, of course, Sanguinius. He's such a perfect angel and the brightest embodiment of what mankind has to offer to the universe. Look what happens to him. His death would be a whole lot less meaningful if he was a dick.

[Captain Rolunde]

It is true that Horus knowingly and willing chose to side with Chaos when it came down to actually having to make that decision.

 

And really, I would like to think the same could hold true for all of the Fallen/Traitor Primarchs.

 

They seem to be intended to be too strong to have just given in purely to 'the devil/chaos/my evil sword' etc, made me do it.

 

It demeans their role if they didn't actually make at least most of the choices, preferably for what they saw as the "right" reasons.

 

Card stock bad guys are boring.

 

But the ones we can see their fall, as was said, one foot in front of the other, much more interesting.

 

Going back to Lorgar is again a case for this, any "needyness" aside, you can see how he ended up where he did, his intent being to save Humanity. At least in part, the other being to screw over the Emperor.

 

Horus mostly just seemed deep down to want to do more of the later when he flipped, and not so much the former except as lip service to his turning.

 

At least that's how it looked to me.

 

And I will agree, sometimes the Emperor does come across like a bag of dicks, and I don't know that's how it is supposed to actually be going there. >.>

 

Intentional. or maybe a bit of writer fail?

[Legatus]

And the setting is so much better for that. What is the reason to pretend we are reading about grimdark universe, if the Emperor is a faultless, goody-two-shoes bore?

It is still grimdark if said goody-two-shoew Emperor has been confined to a giant life support machine for the past ten thousand years, struggling to maintain the Astronomican, but unable to act in any other way. Grimdark is not only nasty characters, it is also nasty things happening to nice characters.

[Unintentional Batman]

Nah, that's just grim, or dark, one of them. To achieve true grimness in the dark, you need to have solely horrible persons as characters. Well, horrible persons and Vu *giant foot*

 

Okay, sorry, I'll stop running the Vulcan joke to the ground. :)

 

Anyway, my trúe point here is that I do reallyt enjoy the added darkness thrown on the earlier more purely benevolent characters. The way I see Warhammer 40K universe is that it's a place where the Nazis are running things. But this time, the Nazis are actually RIGHT. For humanity to survive, you can't have goody two shoes running things.

 

You mind may vary, I don't see why everyone else would need to accept the new view on things.

[Visitor13]

Yes, it's the Emperor's fault that the Primarchs did not do what he expected of them, and instead were manipulated by the Chaos Gods. Totally his fault.

 

Stop being sarcastic. Of course most of the blame lies on the Chaos Gods. But if you failed in your goal because you refused to see that at least one of your tools was irreparably broken and about half of the others would break sooner rather than later, you have to take a hard look at yourself.

 

I do not think the blame lies with the Emperor, but rather the failings of the Primarchs themselves. There was little evidence that the Primarchs would "break" sooner or later, especially since Horus numbered amongst the traitors. And it seemed like the Emperor had a plan for dealing with wayward Legions as well, if the hints as to the Lost Two during the HH novels are any indication.

 

The Primarchs, all of them, served the Imperium loyally for decades to centuries depending on when they were picked up.

They were not children or mere tools, they were the uniquely gene-crafted scions of the Emperor. And they WORKED. They worked brilliantly.

 

The issue lay in the Primarchs themselves, not the Emperor.

The Emperor telling Magnus to TRUST him and expecting him to obey as he had in all things before? Business as usual. One would PRESUME a hyper brilliant individual would have done just that. But Magnus own foolish pride damned him.

 

As for Angron, I am inclined to agree. Should have been put down like the rabid beast he was. Same with Lorgar, the useless simpering weakling. But again, even these flawed Primarch's worked for years, tallying many victories. They did their duty and brought world upon world into the fold.

 

Perturabo failings were his own. Plain and simple. Yes, sieges are difficult and grinding, but only so much as a life dedicated to battle that all the Legions endured. Some even exalted in it.

We can examine other Legions in similar situations and see how they did not buckled under pressure. Most salient is perhaps the Imperial Fists, the Iron Warriors "opposite number" as it were. Siege work and garrison duty does not seem to be wearing them down.

Then we have the Ultramarines. They stopped and garrisoned (near) every planet they stopped on and enjoyed massive recruitment drives as a result. A simple request for R and R would have been all it took.

 

The Primarchs were living demi gods and helped forged the greatest empire since the days of the Eldar. By most standards, that would be judged quite the success. And that is the point of the Heresy. It was unexpected. The Primarchs served faithfully and performed admirably. Then it all went bad.

 

It was not the Emperor's fault they failed and faltered. It was not "bad parenting" or that he did not treat the hyper intelligent centuries old superbeings as emotional stunted retard children that turned them. Recall that even Horus, best and brightest, became corrupt through the machinations of the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor's methods worked well enough to drag mankind from near extinction to the brink of apotheosis. The failings of the Primarchs lay with them or arguably the Chaos Gods, if we are removing personal responsibility from the Primarchs.

 

Hard look at the Emperor? Did bloody amazing.

 

Amazing? Now that he's been stuck in the same place for 10000 years? Not really, no.

 

Horus was very much the exception. One couldn't see his fall coming, I agree.

 

The others? To anyone with an ounce of a knowledge about Chaos they would have set off an alarm as loud as an Ork bomma, or, in the case of Perturabo and Alpharius, would have registered very high on the "Need Close Watching" list.

 

The Emp did precious little to deny the Chaos Gods their prizes. I'm not even talking about "better parenting". That would most likely have failed. I'm talking about surgically looking into their brains to see exactly what damage had been done to them in his absence, trying to fix it (kinda like when recovering a stolen computer), and including some sort of self-destruct protocol just in case.

 

Or just plain assassinating them. Covering it up wouldn't have been a problem.

[Visitor13]

The Horus Heresy: Half of the Primarchs betray the Emperor and instead side with the Chaos Powers.

 

Who is to blame? The Chaos Powers for seducing the Primarchs? The Primarchs for giving in and betraying their creator and their charges?

 

No, the Emperor for not seeing it coming!

 

 

The more important question here of course is: How is one supposed to not treat such statements sarcastically?

 

Here's some more sarcasm:

 

Seeing how anyone with a shred of knowledge about Chaos would have seen the Heresy coming light millennia off, how is one supposed to not treat people absolving the Emperor sarcastically?

 

The Emperor is basically the dude who recovers the PC stolen by his completely ruthless worst enemy, plugs it in, and immediately logs into his bank account.

[Legatus]

Here's some more sarcasm:

 

Seeing how anyone with a shred of knowledge about Chaos would have seen the Heresy coming light millennia off, how is one supposed to not treat people absolving the Emperor sarcastically?

I don't think that the best and brightest Primarch would turn against the Emperor was predictable at all.

 

And for those who maintain that it was obvious Lorgar or Curze or Perturabo would turn: There is a massive leap between being disgruntled about being reprimanded or not respected as much as one would like and partaking in a galactic war against your own species and creator.

 

"Well, of course Timmy was bound to butcher his parents in their sleep. He never got over being reprimanded for hurting that kitten, so of course that was eventually going to happen."

[Visitor13]

Here's some more sarcasm:

 

Seeing how anyone with a shred of knowledge about Chaos would have seen the Heresy coming light millennia off, how is one supposed to not treat people absolving the Emperor sarcastically?

Aside from the fact that it would be easier to be seduced by an unknown evil force (which then can pretend to be a force for good) than it is to be seduced by a known evil force (which is thus known to be evil), I don't think that the best and brightest Primarch turning against the Emperor was a predictable at all.

 

And for those who maintain that it was obvious Lorgar or Curze or Perturabo would turn: There is a massive leap between being disgruntled about being reprimanded or not respected as much as one would like and partaking in a galactic war against your own species and creator.

 

"Well, of course Timmy was bound to butcher his parents in their sleep. He never got over being reprimanded for hurting that kitten, so that was bound to happen."

 

Horus's betrayal was the only one that could probably not have been predicted. And even then he should have been kept an eye on. All Primarchs should have, only some less so than others.

 

"Lorgar, Curze, Perturabo" - I see you've left out Angron, Mort, Magnus, Fulgrim and Alpharius from that list. Still, Lorgar stuck out like a roast pig at a veggie convention. Curze was cruel beyond measure and redefined the term 'bout of insanity'. He was trouble even before the Heresy. Perturabo always got the most grinding and thankless jobs, ones that his legion compensated for by basically turning into the World Eaters.

 

The Chaos Gods were after the Primarchs from the get go, and it is obvious to anyone that they would exploit each and every crack to get their hands on them. With some of the Primarchs there were no cracks, but whole canyons.

 

Well, of course Timmy was bound to butcher his parents in their sleep. He never got over being abducted in his infancy and raised by the psycho who hated his parents, and whom they knew very well and always suspected of being the kidnapper

[Legatus]

"Lorgar, Curze, Perturabo" - I see you've left out Angron, Mort, Magnus, Fulgrim and Alpharius from that list.

Mortarion was angry because the Emperor killed the Tyrant he himself did not have the strength to kill. Not really a reason to betray mankind. Magnus was a bit too curious, but would have remained loyal if the Space Wolves assault had not pushed him over the edge. What reason did Fulgrim and Alpharius really have to turn against the Emperor? Petty complexes. The only Primarch who could be seen to have been "wronged" by the Emperor was Angron, and even then he should have been able to acknowledge that the Emperor was not to condemn an entire world to war just so that a hand full of slaves coud be saved. His implants are another matter. Where from the 2nd to 4th Edition lore one would expect them to be no issue that would prevent him from commanding a Legion, the Horus Heresy novels flat out assert that this was the case.

 

So, Magnus, Fulgrim and Alpharius would have had no real reason to turn if Horus had not persuaded them. Even Mortarion and Perturabo had no real motivation to throw down everything and start a galactic civil war. Lorgar turned for what? Because he had an inherent desire to worship something? And the Emperor should have anticipated that he would start worshiping bloodthirsty evil deities in lieu of an alternative to worship? Curze and Angron were the only two Primarchs that were truly damaged, but apparently not so much that they were not loyal for almost two centuries. By themselves they would not have started a civil war, they would "merely" have comitted atrocities and would eventually have been censured by the Emperor. But they would not have started a galactic civil war by themselves. That was only possible because Horus united several Primarchs and more Imperial forces for that cause. So yeah, "problems" with Curze and Angron could have been expected. But a galactic civil war, led by Horus himself, could not have been.

[Vesper]

And, of course, Sanguinius. He's such a perfect angel and the brightest embodiment of what mankind has to offer to the universe. Look what happens to him. His death would be a whole lot less meaningful if he was a dick.

 

He's not perfect. In fact, his wings are a gift from the Chaos Gods.

[Visitor13]

Angron was basically a Bloodthirster. Not a moment in his life without wanting to shed blood.

 

Mortarion was raised on Ceespool Planet, renamed his legion "The Death Guard" the first time he met them, and restricted recruitment to other inhabitants of Ceespool Planet. He was known for being morose and drinking poison.

 

Magnus was like a psychic supernova, and his legion almost mutated itself out of existence.

 

Fulgrim was morbid in his quest for perfection.

 

Alpharius was a shifty dude with the belief he was smarter than everyone else. Such people are always trouble. Hardly as obvious Chaos bait as the above, but still should have been kept an eye on.

 

Lorgar always stood for the opposite of the Imperial Truth. He was also the first to raise his hand against a Primarch in anger (him or Curze, I think it was him)

 

Curze was insane.

 

Perturabo was reduced to finding new elaborate ways of killing as many as possible as his only enjoyment.

 

 

The Chaos Gods would NOT pass up an occasion such this. Up until this point all their work had basically been done for them, and the Emperor did not try to hinder them in any way. They only needed one final element. And guess what? They got it with next to no problems.

 

The Emperor is guilty of massively underestimating mankind's worst enemy. He did next to nothing to impede Chaos's inevitable attempts at turning the Primarchs. It was completely obvious that the Primarchs would be Chaos's prime targets for as long as they lived, so measures should have been taken to deny Chaos every last bit of purchase on their souls. This should include ways to kill them ASAP. Nearly no measures were taken.

 

Like I said, the Emperor is basically the dude who recovers the PC stolen by his completely ruthless worst enemy, plugs it in, and immediately logs into his bank account.

[Legatus]

The Emperor is guilty of massively underestimating mankind's worst enemy. He did next to nothing to impede Chaos's inevitable attempts at turning the Primarchs. It was completely obvious that the Primarchs would be Chaos's prime targets for as long as they lived, so measures should have been taken to deny Chaos every last bit of purchase on their souls. This should include ways to kill them ASAP. Nearly no measures were taken.

"The Emperor never made the mistake of underestimating the threat of Chaos, and in order to meet that threat he put the best scientific brains on Earth to work. Weapons and spacecraft poured out of the Martian factories to bolster beleagured forces throughout the galaxy.

 

The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engineered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos.

 

The Primarchs were to be shining examples of humans free from the taint of corruption. The energy of uncorrupted warp would flow through them as it flowed through the Emperor himself, invigorating them and conferring special powers such as were possessed by the shamans of old.

 

Unfortunately, things did not go quite according to plan. Despite the Emperor's best attempts to shield the project from the penetrating eyes of the Chaos Powers they still managed to learn of it. The Primarchs were still in their foetal stage, growing in special amniotic tanks, when the Chaos Powers combined their energies to spirit them away in an unexpectedly bold move.

Even for the Chaos Powers this kidnapping represented a colossal expenditure of energy. The Primarchs were sucked through the warp and scattered on separate human worlds in distant parts of the galaxy. The Chaos Powers did not have the resources to destroy the Primarchs, but they did the next best thing which was to hide them from the Emperor.

 

(...)

 

By the time that the warp storms were ended, the Space Marines and other Imperial forces were ready to begin their reconquest of the galaxy.

 

(...)

 

The initial conquests concentrated in areas where the Primarchs had been hidden. Using his psychic pwoers the Emperor gradually located and found each of his original creations and united them with the Space Marine Chapters created from their genetic imprints. They seemed none the worse for their brush with Chaos, having grown up to be great leaders and warriors among the local human populations. In fact this appearance of normality was to prove deceptive, for some of the Primarchs had become tainted by their earlier contact with Chaos. With the help of the Primarchs the Great Crusade swept across the galaxy. Humanity rose to the task of rebuilding its ancient heritage, and everywhere the alien oppressor was defeated and driven out. Chaos retreated to its own realms, to the zones of warp-real space overlap such as the Eye of Terror.

 

THE HORUS HERESY

 

The forces of Chaos were not quite so easily beaten. They whispered to the Primarchs from the warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test. So subtle was their temptation that they never even suspected how their own loyalties were changing.

 

For example, Mortarion Primarchs of the Death Guard Chapter fully believed that he was the herald of a new age of justice. Angron of the World Eaters genuinely believed that he alone could save humanity from destruction. Horus too, the greatest Primarch of all, was convinced of the virtue of the martial ideals for which he fought.

 

By appealing to their virtue and courage, they were tempted to lead their Space Marine Chapters against the Emperor. Initially, even the Primarchs had little idea that they had fallen to Chaos, but when they rebelled their good intentions gradually fell away as Chaos saturated their souls. By the same token the Marine Chapters that they led also turned slowly but inevitably to Chaos.

 

The leader of the rebellion was the Warmaster Horus, the greatest and most trusted Primarch of all. He had stood by the Emperor's side throughout the long years of the Great Crusade. They had fought back-to-back at the siege of Reillis when the Emperor saved Horus's life. On the battlefield of Gorro, Horus had repaid the dept by hacking the arm from a frenzied Ork as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him.

 

Horus's fall came as a great shock to the Emperor. For a vital month the Emperor hesitated, stunned by the extent of Horus's treachery, unable to believe that his friend and general was really gathering forces against him. When the war finally broke out it was savage and bloody. Marine fought Marine as the rival factions battled for supremacy."

(1st Edition Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 177/178)

Take-away points:

• When the Emperor created the Primarchs, they were supposed to be uncorruptable
  
• When the Primarchs were rediscovered, their souls appeared to be untouched
  
• Mortarion and Angron did not turn because they were deeply disturbed individuals and the Dark Gods promised them to fulfill their twisted needs, they turned because they were made to believe that they were doing the right thing
  
• It came as a great shock to the Emperor that Horus of all people would instigate the rebellion
  

[Vesper]

Realm of Chaos The Lost and the Damned - Slaves to Darkness : the best 40k fluff since 25 years.

[Marshal Rohr]

The problem I see is that since people knew Horus would turn beforehand the tragedy loses its edge in the novels.

[Zynk Kaladin]

And, of course, Sanguinius. He's such a perfect angel and the brightest embodiment of what mankind has to offer to the universe. Look what happens to him. His death would be a whole lot less meaningful if he was a dick.

 

He's not perfect. In fact, his wings are a gift from the Chaos Gods.

 

Ah, true. Perhaps "perfect" was too strong a word. No one is perfect after all.

[Wade Garrett]

Did you really just say Angron should have put on his big boy pants and gotten over it, because the Emperor was too much of a nice guy to condemn a whole planet to war over few slaves?

 

Said few slaves being the comrades Angron had known since childhood, who had shed their blood for him during his rebellion, whom he risked his own life to protect time and time again? Well, when you put it that way, who could concieveably hold a grudge about being dragged off against their will while their friends and family got slaughtered? Clearly Angron was just too petty and immature to see the big picture.

 

Not to mention the fact that Emps ordered Rob and the Ultras to bomb a compliant planet back to the Stone Age to make the point to Lorgar that he and the 17th Legion needed to stop messing around with the whole God Emperor thing. Then he forced the Word Bearers to kneel in the ash of the destroyed cities, just to make certain said point was driven into their skulls. If you can say one thing for the Emperor, say this, when he set out to reprimand one of his sons, he didn't do anything half way. You kick any dog enough, it will bite.

 

Not that this excuses the Traitor Primarchs. You may feel sorry for the dog that got raised in a crate, and was only taken out to be beaten and pumped full of steroids by the guy who wanted it to guard his meth lab. But that doesn't mean you don't put it down any way you can once it has the half digested remains of an entire Girl Scout troop circulating through its entrails.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Especially when he goes and does the exact opposite when it's Corax asking. "Oh, you want some help having your slave army beat their oppressors? Here, have a Legion to help you! They're yours, to do with as you wish!"