Who's fault was the heresy?!?!

[Antarius]

The Emperor's.

 

Take Angron, for instance. You could build an Olympus Mons of skulls and spraypaint "For the Blood God!" with blood all over it, and that still wouldn't scream "Khorne bait" as much as Angron's very existence. There is only one sensible course of action the moment one realizes the Butcher's nails could not be removed - mercy kill.

 

Angron's the most glaring example, but the other traitor primarchs also always had chaos written all over them, maybe except Horus and Alpharius/Omegon.

 

Really, the Horus Heresy should be renamed the Galactic Duh.

I really only think they are because you already know what they'll become. The other primarchs are potentially just as "out there", depending on your pov (look at how relatively easily the Dornian Heresy could've been interchanged with the original fluff). The primarchs are humanity's greatest heroes but they've also all brutally destroyed literally millions of people.

 

It always disheartens me when people feel the need to flock to defend the Emperor (or Guilliman) when people are trying to find darker interptations for their cahracters. This is 40K, this is not Black & White, this is Grey & Black. Even the most heroic individual needs to be a complete scumbag, or we can all go back to reading My Little Pony picture books. Everyone - including Emperor. Including Guilliman.

 

Hm, maybe Vulcan is a decent chap at heart. But he's the sole exception to the rule ;)

That's a bit too much on the other side of the fence for my liking. Grimdark isn't just "everyone's a real bastard", that's just boring. Grimdark is "noone is spotless and as it turns out the space nazis may well be right". I actually think the HH books do a pretty good job of showing that; the Emperor, the primarchs and the "regular" marines are shining heroes doing great things -but they're also terrible things and I think that shows very well.

If you really think the Emperor is portrayed as too much of a "goody two-shoes", well let's just say we're apparently not reading the same books.

 

Lorgar being a tosspot and the 40K equivalent of a Frank Burns combined with Beetle Bailey is not here or there. The point is that Emps is a tosspot too. And Roboute. And Alpharius. And Fulgrim. Everyone. There should be no unambiguous good and proper goody two shoes chracters in 40K. Not a single one. Everyone is a jerk.

 

With the possible sole exception of Vulcan.

I think perhaps the "tosspot" part is where we part ways. The Emperor isn't a tosspot; he's a man (god?) with a glorious and yes, "good", goal who is pretty much completely ruthless in bringing it about.

If the setting didn't have "good guys" it would just be boring. What makes it interesting is that those good guys aren't shown to be objectively good -and they never were, by the way.

 

As for the Heresy: I'd say the malevolent Gods and their lackeys were responsible -or the false Emperor and his lapdogs, depending which army I'm rolling out today. That's the beauty of the 40K setting to me: it's entirely possible to have radically different takes on the stories without twisting them past their breaking point.

[Unintentional Batman]

That's a bit too much on the other side of the fence for my liking. Grimdark isn't just "everyone's a real bastard", that's just boring. Grimdark is "noone is spotless and as it turns out the space nazis may well be right". I actually think the HH books do a pretty good job of showing that; the Emperor, the primarchs and the "regular" marines are shining heroes doing great things -but they're also terrible things and I think that shows very well.

If you really think the Emperor is portrayed as too much of a "goody two-shoes", well let's just say we're apparently not reading the same books.

 

Well, I was mostly just using hyperbole here (to help my Vulkan joke), and I do agree with you. The balance of truly heroic actions and good motives & darker shades that BL has been creating with the Heresy series is quite excellent to my tastes.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The Emperor shold of sent Russ to do the spanking.

 

Russ was known as the executioner, having him deliver the warning and glass monarchia would of been a different message to lorgar. Using the Ultramarines was a mistake as it turned a rivalry into outright hatred.

[Wade Garrett]

If by "sent a different message" you mean started an Inter-Legionary war right then and there, I agree.

Guilliman is one of the more diplomatic Primarchs, and Lorgar still wound up sucker punching him. If he had laid hands on Russ that way, it's game on.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Wade: I agree that Russ, (especially with the new "executioner" garbage), would have been a poor choice to send to Lorgar. for one, Russ actually supported Lorgar in his own way, and bringing the "executioner" to the tables for a discipline meeting might have had a negative result (not that there wasnt one anyway, but this was due to lorgar's doing an nobody elses)

 

op: i would blame the HH on Erebus, and those of the Word Bearers that created the warrior among the legions. and the chaos gods, buts that kinda obvious.

 

WLK

[Black.Hunter]

Why didn't the Emperor bring in Peraturbo to build the fortress? I thought his heresy was revealed after it's completion.

And he was the best a seige warfare so who better to design a siege proof fortress. :devil:

[Black.Hunter]

Why didn't the Emperor use Peraturbo to build the fortress.

If he is the best at siege warfare he should be the best to build a siege-proof fortress.

And I didn't think his Heresy was revealed until the Fortresses completion.

:)

[Black.Hunter]

The "grim" part about good characters such as the Emperor and Guilliman

 

What about The Lion? Isn't he sat on a rock crying or something. He should man up and sort this s*** out.

[Knights of the Emperor]

On the Angron front he should have probably just left him to have his fight...he'd have probably still come out of it alive, his gladiators would have obviously died but Angron is just an animal I find it hard to believe that anybody would stand before a 9ft psychopathic killer that has already ripped apart most of a city and its troops. Then he'd have been happy

 

Kurze needed a dad and he'd have been fine! That said, the Emperor should probably have worked out that he was going to go potty and kill everything, though he did it a little bit more subtly than Angron.

 

Fulgrim made a bit of a mistake picking up the sword in that temple, Daemon weapons are used by chaos happily because they're nutters anyway and most aren't hugely fussed if they die.

 

Peturbo..kind of expected really - resented Dorn who got all the accolades, and didn't like the fact that his legion was ground into nothing through the hard inglorious sieges, his home world rebelling was the turning point.

 

Mortarion, no idea what made him tick lol...maybe that poison got to him after all.

 

Alpharious/Omega...sneaky sneaky

 

Magnus got forced into it, but that was him being daft in the first place, and of course when Horus twisted Russ's orders he was going to get a good spanking.

 

Horus, what can you say, resented Daddy leaving him on his own, the wound and Erebus's influence ground him down over time.

 

Lorgar, humiliated in front of everyone that mattered to him...going to resent it. And he had some snakey advisors.

 

^ Causes of the heresy lol

 

Life would have just been easier if the Emperor just hadn't started ass kissing the chaos gods for some primarchs to lead his troops and just done it himself and got standard astartes - at least he can knock them off easily enough.

And most of the loyalist Primarchs flopped majorly throughout the heresy except Ferrus and Sanguinius who went down properly.

Guilliman poisoned so I suppose you can let him off and he killed Alpharius/Omegon, and Russ was fairly badass running into the warp to kill everything chaos.

But Corax ran off in a sulk, Vulkan got bored and ran off, Dorn died against a non-primarch which is kind of pathetic, the Khan ran off somewhere, and the Lion..just being a ..ssy

[Pavement Artist]

I remember a fundamental lesson taught to me with regards to studying history, one that was particularly pertinent when discussing the cause of World War One- Things are always more complex than they seem.

 

For example, most people will point towards the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand as the "Cause", where in actual fact, that was more of a tipping point that served to exacerbate myriad tensions that had been building in Europe since the turn of the century. Each one of these points could be examined in a vacuum and labelled as the true cause, where in truth, they are all equal contributors.

 

It's the same with the Heresy. We can point to the Emperor or to Kor Phaeron or whomever, but it's much more complicated than singling one person out.

With regards to the Word Bearers, anyone who claims the Emperor is blameless for their actions, is being supremely naive. The situation could have been handled far more delicately than an open humiliation of the legion.

 

(On a side note, i always believed that the Emperor was so against their theological ways because he was concerned that in due course it would lead them to discovering the Chaos Gods. Lets face it, the big four do love to be worshiped, it's unlikely they'd have ignored such a prospect as an entirely pliant legion.)

 

I've always wondered, is it more comforting to folks to be able to pin the blame on a singular person as opposed to acknowledging that a lot of the players had a role in laying the foundations for the Heresy? The Emperor isn't blameless, Guilliman isn't blameless, neither are a lot of the primarchs.

 

In the end, isn't this one of the key appeals of 40k as a setting? Everything's basically arsed, everyday is a scrabble for life and even the guys we arbitrarily label as "Good" are in fact, absolute bastards by the standards of our time.

[Legatus]

In the "GW continuity", there already existed an "Imperial Cult" during the Great Crusade, and the Emperor did not really have a problem with worship. Lorgar had been described as "one of the most scrupulous and dedicated followers of the Imperial Cult". The problem had been that Lorgar was putting too much time and effort into converting the worlds he conquered to said Cult. The Emperor had created the Primarchs to lead the Crusade, not to convert the populations, so he reprimanded Lorgar for his "tardiness".

 

In the "BL/HH continuity", Lorgar is still busy converting the worlds he conquered. Only now the Emperor has an anti-religious agenda, instead of an "Imperial Cult", so now Lorgar's actions are directly contrary to the Emperor's explicite will. Makes you wonder why Lorgar thought he would be praised for his efforts. Now Lorgar is not reprimanded for his slow progress, but instead for his cultish activities. And now it is not just the Emperor telling him to get things straightened out, he also sends Roboute Guilliman, and orchestrates the discussion in as humiliating a way as possible.

 

In a way, how the scene is celebrated in 'The First Heretic', it is now less about the subject matter of the Emperor's reprimand and more about how it was conducted. At least that seems to be the consensus whenever the Emperor's fault of alienating Lorgar is being mentioned. Because he "humiliated him" and had him kneel before Guilliman. Not because he did not cherish Lorgar's devotional efforts.

[Marshal Rohr]

The human brain is wired for events to have a specific beginning middle and end. Especially in storytelling. Arguing that the expansion of the Horus Heresy has added contributing factors isnt quite accurate since all these 'new' precursor events all filter into one event, Davin.

[Mantras]

The answer is simples. Horus started the Heresy. Before Horus, it was a merely as conspiracy, albeit one that had enveloped an entire legion, but for it to become a civil war and heresy, it needed a leader, for others legions to flock around.

 

Horus was not a pawn used by Erebus and Lorgar etc, Horus was second only to the Emperor in terms of galatic influence. They played on his inherent flaws and weaknesses, and turned him, but as was shown by other primarchs with more fortitude (Ferrus and Sanguinius), it was not impossible to resisit turning, instead, it was something that had to be conciously embraced.

[Srsbzns]

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h446/Brisketman/trolol.jpg

[MadDoc]

In the "BL/HH continuity"

Despite your refusal to acknowledge the fact, the BL/HH continuity and the GW continuity are one and the same. The Heresy Series is the official story of the Heresy, the fact that you don't personally like it does nothing to change that.

 

The two distinctions you made should more accurately be called the "old broadstrokes/history as legend story" and "the new expanded/fleshed out story".

[NemFX]

There are a few people responsible.

 

Let's go down the list.

 

Erebrus (or however it's spelled) of the Word Bearers. Stole the Anatheim sword that was later used to poison Horus. Lead to Horus's corruption directly. Influenced the Mournival, and the Luna Wolves corruption at large.

 

That one Terran official guy. I forget his name. In the book Fulgrim, this one pompous little official guy shows up on the Pride of the Emperor and basically tells Fulgrim that they aren't winning fast enough. This leads to most of the Emperor's Children legion taking heavy casualties in the Laeran campaign. Allows Fabius Bile to start doing the crazy surgeries on marines. Sets up that legion for their ultimate downfall. It would have been much better if Fulgrim had just been like "Okay. We'll finish this right now. Exterminatus." but oh well.

 

The Emperor. Most of the valid points have been made, but ultimately the two things that cause him to be on my list; how he treated his sons. Magnus was legitimately trying to help. He screwed up, but it was originally with good motivation. Lorgar also was trying to do good, in his way, but the Emperor was too extreme in his condemnation. Conrad Kurze was intended to be a terror weapon, the Emperor pretty much knew that from the first time they met, but hey the Emperor threw him under the bus. (edit; should probably have remembered to write the second reason..) the lack of communication between him and his followers. If the Emperor had at least kept in direct contact with his primarchs, that would have saved so much trouble. How hard is it to get a space phone with 21 speed dial buttons? He has a continent sized castle of pure white marble. A phone should not be hard.

 

There are other examples, but those three are the best singular people I can think of.

[Antarius]

The Emperor. Most of the valid points have been made, but ultimately the two things that cause him to be on my list; how he treated his sons. Magnus was legitimately trying to help. He screwed up, but it was originally with good motivation. Lorgar also was trying to do good, in his way, but the Emperor was too extreme in his condemnation. Conrad Kurze was intended to be a terror weapon, the Emperor pretty much knew that from the first time they met, but hey the Emperor threw him under the bus. (edit; should probably have remembered to write the second reason..) the lack of communication between him and his followers. If the Emperor had at least kept in direct contact with his primarchs, that would have saved so much trouble. How hard is it to get a space phone with 21 speed dial buttons? He has a continent sized castle of pure white marble. A phone should not be hard.

Considering that trying to get a message to Terra quickly is actually the very reason why Magnus ends up being denounced (and subsequently damned), I'd say "a space phone" isn't a viable option in-setting.

[Lucifer216]

There is another issue with the Emperor's treatment of Lorgar. Why wait for a hundred years before censuring him for his misplaced devotion, especially when it was pretty clear from the get-go?

[jeremy1391]

While I agree several players contributed greatly to the heresy there are some who are blameless namely Corax, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Ferrus Mannus, Jaghati Khan do to incite the Heresy???? I would say these primarchs are blameless for the events of the Heresy. Unless I am missing something.

 

Some were manipulated namely Russ and Magnus. Russ by the warmaster and Magnus by Tzeentch.

[Schultzhoffen]

They were all to blame.

 

The same reason every human civilization has fallen/will fall: humans are flawed.

 

Maybe the Emperor wasn't enough of a bastard. Perhaps Lorgar should have been executed for disobeying an order and the Word Bearers punished en mass? For example, a penitent crusade or decimation.

 

Perhaps if the Emperor had been a complete bastard, they'd have been too afraid to rebel.

 

However, I don't think so. The Primarch were superhuman with superhuman egos and stunted personalities; vain, self-absorbed and suffering delusions of grandeur (pretty understandable, really).

 

Primarchs seem similar to the Greek gods, therefore, ripe pickings for the lies of Chaos. They were doomed from the start.

[Lord_Caerolion]

How hard is it to get a space phone with 21 speed dial buttons? He has a continent sized castle of pure white marble. A phone should not be hard.

 

Not sure how sarcastic you're being, but the answer is; in 40k, literally impossible. Astrotelepathy is the most reliable way of communicating across vast distances short of simply taking the message there physically, and even astrotelepathy is filled with mysticism and allegory, rather than sending a simple message. Magnus got in trouble because he tried a method faster than astrotelepathy, that was more powerful and quicker, but a much more "unstable" message, and that involved the deaths of many of his acolytes/thralls.

 

Of course, this isn't saying I'm defending how the Emperor acted, but simply pointing out that it isn't as easy as going "I haven't heard from Horus in a while. Better call him up" followed by a chat over the phone.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Wrong, I heard T-Mobile now offers free sector-to-sector calls with agreement to a two-hundred year service plan.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Can you imagine those roaming and data charges?! Better stock up on minutes during those Warp jumps.

 

Upon great consideration the Black Templar in me blames the Xenos for the Heresy. The End.

[The Nephilim]

If you can say one thing for the Emperor, say this, when he set out to reprimand one of his sons, he didn't do anything half way. You kick any dog enough, it will bite.

I think this sums it up very well. A lot of you a mention "bad parenting" doesn't factor into this at all. You're 100% wrong. The Primarchs and even the legions themselves were very much family units. The novels make this fact very, very clear.

 

I hope none of you have ever experienced stuff like this, but believe me, when you get knocked around by a parental figure enough, it does lead to resentment and eventually will even lead to hate.

 

Was the Emperor a 100% at fault? As much as I personally don't like the guy, and knowing what I do about modern child psychology, no. Did he contribute to it? Oh hell yes.

[rx781a]

i personally think that it was all steve's fault. he knows what he did.

 

 

in more serious terms though i think that our desire to blame someone sort of ill-placed in the WH40k mythos. is it horus(it is the HORUS heresy) failure to remain pure to his father's wishes, the emperor for mishandeling his sunjects, eberus for being a totaly tool for the chaos gods. to me our blame will do nothing. the villians are too far gone to care and/or be redeamed(that would be a cool story though, repentant chaos marines)and the heros(if one can call them that) are to self pious, and self important to give a bolter sell of what we (the average imperal citizen) thinks.

i am more intrested in the minds of the legions, the reasons for their fall and their stuggle or rationlizing it.

 

spelling sucks sorry