NemFX Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that if that one stupid little official guy in the book Fulgrim hadn't said anything, there was a very good chance of the legion not falling. Standard Emperor's Children tactics are to try and get air superiority first, and attack from above before doing a ground attack. If they had managed that, then there's a chance that the Laer temple would have just gotten blown up, that sword would have been scrap on the bottom of the ocean.. I know it's a bit of a stretch, but yeah. That could have really changed the playing field of history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3158835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black.Hunter Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Blaming the Chaos Gods is like blaming the sea... Blaming the primarchs is like blaming the ships... No... you must blame the man who took unworthy vessels into the storm. I totally agree, if the Emperor hadn't bargained with the Chaos Gods and took more time perfeccting the gene-seed none of this would have happend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3191448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 If by "sent a different message" you mean started an Inter-Legionary war right then and there, I agree.Guilliman is one of the more diplomatic Primarchs, and Lorgar still wound up sucker punching him. If he had laid hands on Russ that way, it's game on. Remember how Russ defended Lorgar when Magnus was mocking him on Shrike... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3191596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Blaming the Chaos Gods is like blaming the sea... Blaming the primarchs is like blaming the ships... No... you must blame the man who took unworthy vessels into the storm. I totally agree, if the Emperor hadn't bargained with the Chaos Gods and took more time perfeccting the gene-seed none of this would have happend. Are we sure that the Emperor had bargained with the Chaos Gods? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3191614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Blaming the Chaos Gods is like blaming the sea... Blaming the primarchs is like blaming the ships... No... you must blame the man who took unworthy vessels into the storm. I totally agree, if the Emperor hadn't bargained with the Chaos Gods and took more time perfeccting the gene-seed none of this would have happend. Are we sure that the Emperor had bargained with the Chaos Gods? We aren't. That's the rub, really. It's a story put forth by a daemon. And, let's be honest, what fool would trust a daemon's word? :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3191616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Blaming the Chaos Gods is like blaming the sea... Blaming the primarchs is like blaming the ships... No... you must blame the man who took unworthy vessels into the storm. I totally agree, if the Emperor hadn't bargained with the Chaos Gods and took more time perfeccting the gene-seed none of this would have happend. Are we sure that the Emperor had bargained with the Chaos Gods? We aren't. That's the rub, really. It's a story put forth by a daemon. And, let's be honest, what fool would trust a daemon's word? :o Lorgar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3191632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazguire Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 At the end of the day, Horus chose to go traitor and pull the Imperium into civil war. No one else forced him to do it. He chose to give into ambition, use the cheap excuses given to him by Erebus and Chaos (excuses he knew to be fabricated, at least to an extent) and do what he did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3191649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Its the fault of the first thing to gain emotions and desires since that's what the chaos gods are the personification of (see Eldar Galactic duh...) the Big E for asking the gods for the knowledge to make the Primarchs and then turning his back on them, the chaos gods for having a he stole my toy fit and snatching them back, the big E again for being so far past humanity emotionally as to not understand them as individuals, the Primarchs for not telling the Big E he didn't love them enough and then steve in accounting for dropping the 1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3191751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 My answer - the Emperor, his poor choices, his sons and his hubris.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3192065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwatch/Grey knight Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 If by "sent a different message" you mean started an Inter-Legionary war right then and there, I agree.Guilliman is one of the more diplomatic Primarchs, and Lorgar still wound up sucker punching him. If he had laid hands on Russ that way, it's game on. Remember how Russ defended Lorgar when Magnus was mocking him on Shrike... where is that source from sounds interesting and if any primarch should have fallen it would be guilliman i mean most of the primarchs did hate him and he always thought he should have been warmaster if anything he was the worst primach ever always thought he was better Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3231059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I find it hard for the Emperor to not know some sort of scheme was going to occur, in fact I think he thought it was inevitable, he just didn't know how it would occur. Which makes me question the way he treated his Sons, was he overestimating their loyalty to him? was he underestimating the power the chaos gods could wield? It doesn't sit right with me the way things panned out and that the Emperor would have no idea anything was going to happen, if anything him returning to Terra should've been more warning that perhaps something may happen if he wasn't there to oversee his sons. Am I overestimating the Emperor? Possibly but after everything I've read, especially the dream sequence in The Outcast Dead it just seems implausible that, know he had bargained with the gods to create his sons and then spitting in their face he'd of though that the only retaliation would be to scatter the Primarchs across the galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3231096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Ignore this, lagged out and it double posted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3231097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Well, if we are to believe chaos theory itself, the fault lies with that little butterfly that just flapped its wings on the other side of the world! So it's the butterfly's fault ....... or Bill Gates, one or the other! :) One could equally blame the Eldar.....if thay hadn't fallen then the warp storms wouldn't have cleared, so the Emperor wouldn't have been able to start the Crusade in the first place! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3231108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 This thread reveals a lot about people's personalities :P. Me, I think the blame has to lay with the Emperor - he set it all in motion and then handled the ensuing situation badly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3231168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a148/jeremy1391/ALAA.jpg Seems legit..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3231313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 No post since Wade Garret's Logistics speech has made me laugh so much as that picture! -Logistics Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3231341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Each character involved in personal quarrels with someone else or pushed away by events and various episodes has a reason of his own to share the guilt. But in the end it was up to the Emprah to cut down a problem as he already did with the II & XI Legions. Madmen like Angron couldn't be let free after the Crusade have been completed and a failing leader like Lorgar could have been put in chains for even less. What else ? Definitely not brilliant to say the least with Magnus and remembering Perturabo and Mortarion won his battles as well as others could have helped a little... Still better than Abaddon after 14 crusades, but nonetheless FAIL for the Emprah. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3231589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 and if any primarch should have fallen it would be guilliman i mean most of the primarchs did hate him Weeell. Two Primarchs hated him. And that was because they were doing poorly, while Guilliman was excelling and earning much praise. and he always thought he should have been warmaster if anything he was the worst primach ever always thought he was better According to 'Horus Rising', Guilliman, Dorn and Khan had accepted the Emperor's decision to make Horus Warmaster as the obvious choice. And Horus was said to often have sought Guilliman's and Dorn's councel after becoming Warmaster. It is only in 'False Gods' where a wounded and feverish Horus, about to throw in his lot with evil space gods, utters that he thought that Guilliman was envious of him and though that he himself should have been Warmaster. I do not know of an instance where Guilliman is described as thinking himself better than the other Primarchs. Though in the Index Astartes of the Alpha Legion Guilliman is said to have pointed to his Legions successes at the end of a debate with Alpharius, where he unsuccessfully tried to convince Alpharius to change his Legion's battle doctrines. And in 'Know No Fear' Guilliman at one point reflects about the great achievements of his Legion, which overshadowed a lot of the others. But I think most readers found Guilliman to be quite humble and humane in that moment. That Guilliman and the Ultramarines far exceeded the achievements of some of the other Legions is a simple matter of fact, so that being brought up on one or the other occasion is only natural. It is not like Guilliman was prancing around in front of the other Primarchs and boasted of his successes. Quite the opposite, according to 'Know No Fear' he reminisced how he would often feel compelled to make excuses for his achievements toward the other Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3232053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Slightly OT. You make the Ultramarines seem like an army I'd want to do, atm I'm on Raven Guard and I suck at highlighting, but I have no problem with doing blue. I don't think we've read enough about the Ultramarines, what we have read seems to come from two different point of views, that of Lorgar who was obviously paranoid and Guilliman who didn't really dwell on it that much and when he did do, came across as someone not to notice the hatred Lorgar had for him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3232065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupe Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I personally believe that the Emperor is without a doubt the one who should get the overwhelming majority of the blame for this one. Never mind the fact that his master plan is to defeat Chaos once and for good, and goes so far as to gene-craft twenty trusted superhuman sons to act as his generals in this endeavor, but completely fails to warn them about the existence or the dangers of said Chaos. The way he treats his sons, it's a wonder they didn't all turn on him. Let's see. Some examples include (but are not limited to) the following Kurze - a disfunctional justicar who actually murdered his way into rulership of a world, and turned it into a model of efficiency. Not only does the Emperor approve of his methods, but he doesn't even bother to instruct (or have someone else) instruct him in the basic principles of establishing a civic infrastructure to capitalize on the ordered society he has attained. He makes conscious use of his talents as a terror weapon, only to be subsequently shocked by his excesses, humble him in front of his brothers, and then allegedly send an assassin against him. Angron - a broken warrior, with a strong martial code of conduct and fitted with implants constantly causing him unimaginable physical and psychological pain, who nonetheless struggles to remain in control of himself and not succumb to rage. Obviously, pledging his warriors to aid Angron's cause and earn his respect as a warrior wouldn't have paid off in the long run, so The Emperor does the sensible thing in such a situation - teleports Angron into the cargo hold of a battle barge, while leaving his friends to die in a nameless battle. Thus, he not only kills every friend Angron ever had, but also insults every martial principle Angron has ever lived by. He then offers no apologies, no advice and no encouragements whatsoever and just uses him as meat cleaver for the next two hundred years. Magnus - a psyker second only to the Emperor, with whom he had shared a mind link ever since he was still in a test tube. Not only does the Emperor explicitly bans Magnus from things the two of them had spent the better part of two centuries doing together, but he also does this in a mock trial that completely humiliates his son. Because obviously sending him a mental memo and a good reason for this interdiction would have clearly been to mean a feat for psykers of such caliber. When Magnus ignores the interdiction and uses sorcery for the legitimate reason of, you know, warning him of a galaxy-wide civil war that threatens to undo his works, the Emperor once more does the sensible thing by sending a full Astartes legion lead by Magnus' bigoted, superstitios rival to apprehend him, instead of asking the now apologetic Magnus to haul his own legion back to Terra and help sort out his own mess over the psychic link they still had open. Lorgar - a dedicated son who worshiped the very ground he walked on. The Emperor allows Lorgar to build a religion centered around him for half a century, then decides that the best way to put a stop to this is to commit genocide, and then subsequently humiliate Lorgar in front of his legion and a brother primarch. Because obviously, having a chat with Lorgar in private would not only cause resentment, but would also force Lorgar to find the truths of the universe elsewhere... And here's the thing, the Emperor isn't a jerk only to the primarchs who turned traitor. Far from it. Leman Russ - Their first encounter is a contest designed to earn Russ's respect as a warrior (you might be familiar with the concept - this is exactly what the Emperor has done with Angron... oh... wait). The contest can be summed up as such - the Emperor has lunch with Russ, then gets him drunk, and punches him in the face with the largest powerfist ever created. Russ is then given the honor of occasionally attempting to kill his brother primarchs when they step out of line. Corax - after seeing 80% of his sons killed, and after having narrowly escaped death at the hands of his brothers, the Emperor wisely decides to implant some knowledge into his head and sends him into a deathtrap labyrinth to recover the secrets of the gene-seed, instead of directly implanting the secrets of the gene-seed, therefore ensuring another hundred or so pages can be written in a certain book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3232102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I'm of the opinion that he tolerated Lorgar for so long so that the beginnings of his religion could start, but he then stopped it because he knew humanities history of building religions from illegal beginnings, and what way to stamp your foot down than on the very person who started it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3232118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Slightly OT. You make the Ultramarines seem like an army I'd want to do, atm I'm on Raven Guard and I suck at highlighting, but I have no problem with doing blue.I don't think we've read enough about the Ultramarines, what we have read seems to come from two different point of views, that of Lorgar who was obviously paranoid and Guilliman who didn't really dwell on it that much and when he did do, came across as someone not to notice the hatred Lorgar had for him. Problem to me is that we read much about them but with no real help in adjusting our view of where they excel in battle. There's been no clear rules that represent their attitude while we have minor hits about, for instance, the Raven Guard. I will go for both and Wolves as well maybe, because I'm a long term fan but still i can't see clearly... Back from OT but related, I read some books, not all of them and I still think there is much space for opinions where other stories about other Legions/Primarchs have more strongpoints and this is a flaw. I'm looking forward for the Calth book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3232123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 What if Lorgar is right though, what if Chaos is right, what if everything in 40k is a waste of time. Everything comes to an end and maybe chaos is the result of everything that ends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3232134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Well I could say no one's right anyway since the current Imperium is Xenophobic, racist, feudal governments just to say something... If you want the good guys my only possible answer would be Tau Empire, but still there could be a little debate about it ! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3232139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I personally believe that the Emperor is without a doubt the one who should get the overwhelming majority of the blame for this one. Never mind the fact that his master plan is to defeat Chaos once and for good, and goes so far as to gene-craft twenty trusted superhuman sons to act as his generals in this endeavor, but completely fails to warn them about the existence or the dangers of said Chaos. The way he treats his sons, it's a wonder they didn't all turn on him. Let's see. Some examples include (but are not limited to) the following (...) In other words, the Emperor is to blame, because he did not realize that he was dealing with a bunch of angsty teenagers as opposed to mature adults. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/4/#findComment-3232159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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