Who's fault was the heresy?!?!

[KarkassBC]

I personally believe that the Emperor is without a doubt the one who should get the overwhelming majority of the blame for this one.

 

Never mind the fact that his master plan is to defeat Chaos once and for good, and goes so far as to gene-craft twenty trusted superhuman sons to act as his generals in this endeavor, but completely fails to warn them about the existence or the dangers of said Chaos.

 

The way he treats his sons, it's a wonder they didn't all turn on him.

 

Let's see. Some examples include (but are not limited to) the following

 

(...)

In other words, the Emperor is to blame, because he did not realize that he was dealing with a bunch of angsty teenagers as opposed to mature adults.

 

No because he moved as an idiot...

 

If he wanted to have perfect servitors he would have build an army of robots (or cyber robots, improving the Adeptus projects)

 

No he made powerful entities without creating a control system for them, for example not creating an intelligent service first of all.

 

Moreover when there was the time to give a word he remained silent... when there was the moment to stay away, he arrived doing the worst possible decision...

 

as before, someone correctly told... he created the Primarchs from the Warp but he didn't gave info on it... moreover he saw the Primordial Annihilator or Chaos Gods spread his Sons in the Galaxy... he thought was simply a game like "try to find all of them. This is the first clue..." he saw they wanted to take revenge of the broken pact... and only thought they stopped to only waste some time...

 

Not all the Primarchs were botched, fortunately some were blessed to be found by the Emperor only after creating something of importance like the Primarch of Ultramarines... He made an Empire before meeting the Emperor... in this way he had something to do than going in all-out Crusade... (in Know no Fear, Guilliman spoke about Monarchia with sorrow because he thought the Emperor made a lot of errors)

 

Lorgar choose the Chaos Gods as a revenge against the Emperor not because he thought it was abetter decision... maybe he would fall the same without the Emperor support, but we cannot know...

 

So if the start of the Heresy is Istvaan, and the reason for Istvaan was Horus turned to Chaos due to the actions of the Word Bearers, what are the source for those actions? Monarchia

 

If the Emperor wanted to stop the slow progress of the Word Bearers he would simply arrived to the WB homeworld and gave the order to Lorgar to send his companies to the Expeditionary Fleet of his brothers. They will fight at the speed of the other armies and they would not have the time to stop for building up the Faith on the Emperor.

He would even said to Lorgar "I decided this way because you wronged on my decisions. Your Legion will start a penance duty with their brothers to recover my trust on you. Fight well for the Crusade, my Son".

 

Maybe no Heresy at all (later with Tyranids and Necron no need for other reasons to take weapons... an external enemy it's always the best reason to stay together)

[Legatus]

So, why did Lorgar and Horus and all the others turn against the Emperor? Did they do that because the Emperor did not treat them well? Or could it perhaps be that they all were influenced by evil space gods along the way, whispering to them from the beginning, manipulating them in subtle ways, pricking and testing all of the Primarchs, and succeeding to taint half of them? The fluff certainly gives us descriptions of how the traitor Primarchs at least felt "wronged" by the Emperor. But it also unambiguously tells us that the Chaos Gods corrupted the traitor Primarchs. And as I said earlier, if evil space gods turn your men against you, that is hardly your fault.

[KarkassBC]

So, why did Lorgar and Horus and all the others turn against the Emperor? Did they do that because the Emperor did not treat them well? Or could it perhaps be that they all were influenced by evil space gods along the way, whispering to them from the beginning, manipulating them in subtle ways, pricking and testing all of the Primarchs, and succeeding to taint half of them? The fluff certainly gives us descriptions of how the traitor Primarchs at least felt "wronged" by the Emperor. But it also unambiguously tells us that the Chaos Gods corrupted the traitor Primarchs. And as I said earlier, if evil space gods turn your men against you, that is hardly your fault.

 

The Emperor knows about the Warp and the Chaos Gods... he knows they would do everything to corrupt His Sons, but it's seem that he haven't done anything to counter it... moreover the decision made were the opposite one...

 

I wonder many time if the Chaos Powers whispered in the ear of the Emperor before he made his wrongful decisions...

 

For me the biggest error was the punishment of Lorgar and his faith... I don't remember when the Emperor went to Mars to punish the High Mechanicum Priest for the same reason or he was not called the Omnissiah

 

Second one the Librarian issue and the punishment of the Thousand Sons... he declared the Council of Nikea only after constant petitioning of Russ about it... not because he found a problem on it but to avoid a schism between the Legions... the evidence of it is the immediate reversal of the Edict during the Horus Heresy.

[Legatus]

The Emperor knows about the Warp and the Chaos Gods... he knows they would do everything to corrupt His Sons, but it's seem that he haven't done anything to counter it...

He did try:

"The Emperor never made the mistake of underestimating the threat of Chaos, and in order to meet that threat he put the best scientific brains on Earth to work. Weapons and spacecraft poured out of the Martian factories to bolster beleagured forces throughout the galaxy.

 

The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engineered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos.

 

The Primarchs were to be shining examples of humans free from the taint of corruption. The energy of uncorrupted warp would flow through them as it flowed through the Emperor himself, invigorating them and conferring special powers such as were possessed by the shamans of old.

 

Unfortunately, things did not go quite according to plan. Despite the Emperor's best attempts to shield the project from the penetrating eyes of the Chaos Powers they still managed to learn of it. The Primarchs were still in their foetal stage, growing in special amniotic tanks, when the Chaos Powers combined their energies to spirit them away in an unexpectedly bold move.

Even for the Chaos Powers this kidnapping represented a colossal expenditure of energy. The Primarchs were sucked through the warp and scattered on separate human worlds in distant parts of the galaxy. The Chaos Powers did not have the resources to destroy the Primarchs, but they did the next best thing which was to hide them from the Emperor."

(1st Edition Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 177)

He intended for the Primarchs to be as uncorruptible as himself. And he did all in his power to shield the Primarch project from the eyes of the Chaos Gods. But they did manage to learn of it. And in a colossal expenditure of energy, they did not manage to deytroy the Primarchs, but managed to steal them, and in the process to corrupt some of them. Four Chaos Gods (or maybe three, if Slaanesh was not yet born at that stage) combined their power and made a huge effort to thwart the Emperor's plans.

 

Conosidering that, there really was nothing else the Emperor could have done. And his efforts did result in almost all of the human worlds being liberated from the tyranny of Chaos or alien during the Great Crusade. The Chaos Gods did not manage to deny him that. At the outset of the Great Crusade, Chaos had already advanced far into the material realm and had dominion over a great deal of the human worlds. It was arguably in a much stronger position than it is now.

By the time that the warp storms were ended, the Space Marines and other Imperial forces were ready to begin their reconquest of the galaxy. The forces of Chaos were already strong, and many human worlds had been taken over by Chaos Cultists or other aliens. (...)

With the help of the Primarchs the Great Crusade swept across the galaxy. Humanity rose to the task of rebuilding its ancient heritage, and everywhere the alien oppressor was defeated and driven out. Chaos retreated to its own realms, to the zones of warp-real space overlap such as the Eye of Terror.

(1st Edition Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 178)

Had the Emperor done nothing, the galaxy would have remained under Chaos control. So he created the Primarchs and the Space Marines to retake all of the lost worlds and unite them into a strong human Imperium. And he did succeed in doing that, driving the forces of Chaos back to their own realm. Where things went wrong was in that he would not then rule that Imperium for millennia of peace. He would be confined to the Golden throne, and due to the tragedy of the Heresy the Imperium would be forever at war with the alien and the forces of Chaos. This was not the result of "the Emperor being an idiot", it was the result of the efforts of evil space gods doing their utmost to oppose the Emperor.

[KarkassBC]

Unfortunately the Emperor as reported on the books is shown as an idiot...

 

My biggest example is Lorgar and his Word Bearers... Lorgar created the best weapon against the Chaos Powers and the Emperor rewarded him with a humiliation...

 

About the Great Crusade he haven't reclaimed the worlds from Chaos because only a small fraction were corrupted by the Warp entities. The majority were simple lost from a central union, some like the Interex (or the Squats worlds) were against Chaos.

 

If he wanted to fight only Chaos he could have made some pacts or treaties like the one made with the Mechanicum on Mars. No he gave the simple order: accept my rule or you'll die... maybe he will not be a complete idiot but sincerely it's very hard to think of him as a diplomat... he choosed an immensely huge attrition war against everything and everyone... sorry for me it's only a bigger copy of Angron or Russ...

[Smirnov]

My biggest example is Lorgar and his Word Bearers... Lorgar created the best weapon against the Chaos Powers and the Emperor rewarded him with a humiliation...

Which is?

If you mean Cult of Emperor, it's not a weapon against chaos, it's a means for chaos to stay, to be a lingering force even when the Crusade triumphs. So Lorgar worshiping the Emperor was a clear sabotage of everything the Emperor tried to achieve.

[Emperor's Furor]

But if Humanity is worshipping the Emperor it's not worshipping the chaos gods which weakens them.

[Legatus]

I can only say it again, in the "original" lore, the Emperor had no problem with worship. Lorgar was not the creator of, but simply the most faithful follower of the Imperial cult. The Emperor eventually criticised Lorgar for being too slow and not making enough progress. He had created the Primarchs to lead the Great Crusade, not to preach and to convert. And of course in the "original" Council of Nikaea, the Emperor only outlawed sorcery, not the use of psychic powers, which was specifically allowed and still encouraged according to the decision of the Councel. But at some point someone high up at GW figured that it all just made too much sense, and that the plot needed more controversy and confusion to keep people's interest over the span of several years and several dozen novels. So now the Emperor suddenly has a problem with worship, and now the Emperor suddenly outlawed the use of psychic powers (except for Astropaths and Navigators, of course).

[Haranin]

Emperor was guilty of having his reach exceed his grasp. He was trying for an ultimate win for humanity- unified, no chaos gods, no aliens. By going for the big win, he refused to compromise for a stable minor victory, which allowed the enemy to survive. Sure, he could have gone for a more stable 40k result- use religion, warn the space marines about choas. But that gives the enemy and infinite counterattack time.

 

Without Emperor/immortal perspective and knowledge it is difficult for a mortal to argue that his decisions were stupid. He is operating on a completely different time scale.

[Smirnov]

But if Humanity is worshipping the Emperor it's not worshipping the chaos gods which weakens them.

Worshiping the Emperor makes chaos gods real and makes them alive. Not worshiping anyone kills the dark gods.

Worshiping the Emperor opens a road to damnation in ways of defying the Emperor and starting to worship chaos gods, which makes them stronger. Worshiping the Emperor gives you no solid protection against corruption, because if it gave, chaos would be no more in 40K as all humans are inducted into worshiping Emperor at birth.

[Arkangilos]

But if Humanity is worshipping the Emperor it's not worshipping the chaos gods which weakens them.

 

But then you can have chaos infiltrators pretending to be his voice. Such as the Voice of the Emperor

 

I think he planned it to lead up to modern 40k, because in the End Time he will be able to defeat Chaos once and for all.

[Billuriye]

Worshiping the Emperor makes chaos gods real and makes them alive. Not worshiping anyone kills the dark gods.

 

Chaos Gods exist regardless of worship. They aren't sustained sorely by worship. Anytime you feel anger, hope, despair, fear, delight or pain, you feed them.

[Olis]

Worshiping the Emperor makes chaos gods real and makes them alive. Not worshiping anyone kills the dark gods.

 

Chaos Gods exist regardless of worship. They aren't sustained sorely by worship. Anytime you feel anger, hope, despair, fear, delight or pain, you feed them.

 

QFT. Just because someone worships the Emperor, it doesn't mean the Chaos Gods gain power. They feed off of souls and emotions. Worship by mortals is just a bonus for them as it helps them interact with the material realm.

[Smirnov]

Worshiping the Emperor makes chaos gods real and makes them alive. Not worshiping anyone kills the dark gods.

 

Chaos Gods exist regardless of worship. They aren't sustained sorely by worship. Anytime you feel anger, hope, despair, fear, delight or pain, you feed them.

Then the Emperors plan was doomed from the beginning, you say? The plan was to make humanity forget there are angels and demons and shut them out of the warp altogether. Which would starve chaos gods to death. Believing in angels and demons ( that is worshiping Emperor as divine) makes daemons real.

[caprera]

Doomed surely not. Via the Emprah it had its problems like anything else and then intervened his corruptible sons and enemies. Fail is served: it just ended badly.

[Billuriye]

Then the Emperors plan was doomed from the beginning, you say? The plan was to make humanity forget there are angels and demons and shut them out of the warp altogether. Which would starve chaos gods to death. Believing in angels and demons ( that is worshiping Emperor as divine) makes daemons real.

 

Actually, we don't have any idea how Emperor would accomplish eradicating Chaos. He told that to nobody. I think it involves more than just cutting off the religion.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Then the Emperors plan was doomed from the beginning, you say? The plan was to make humanity forget there are angels and demons and shut them out of the warp altogether. Which would starve chaos gods to death. Believing in angels and demons ( that is worshiping Emperor as divine) makes daemons real.

 

Actually, we don't have any idea how Emperor would accomplish eradicating Chaos. He told that to nobody. I think it involves more than just cutting off the religion.

 

from what i was understand, the Emperor was building a imperial webgate under the Palace. With this, he could break humanities reliance on warp travel. (This is part of why he reacted so "harshly" on Magnus when his daemon spell came to Terra. It crashed the still being built warp gates and the Emperor then had a open, broken warp gate below the Palace)

 

now that wont stop psykers and such from being born, but it would remove their grip on travel in the Imperium.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

Also, people did crazy things while worshiping the warp xenos. He did not want people to worship them, and see them as a special kind of alien (which he was not wrong about), so they wouldn't do any of the sacrifices or make pacts or anything like that.

 

Horus himself knew about them, and explained that the Emperor told him they were nothing but aliens from another dimension. So maybe the Emperor himself did not see them as gods. We all call them gods because it is our nature, and we are enthralled by the 40k wording of them. However, lets say the game started in the 30k universe during the great crusade, and the wording of the codexes and rule books were that of the Imperial Truth, and those beings were instead called "Powerful, trans-dimensional xenos, often believed by many to be gods." Would you still think they were gods? Would you still think that the Emperor's denial of them as gods were dumb? Or would you think that those calling them gods were dumb?

 

You say they are "gods" because we have had them referred to gods in the current setting, where EVERYTHING is seen with religious superstitions.

 

Hindsight is only twenty-twenty is the case when you aren't looking through a cathedral's stain glass window into the past.

[Billuriye]

@WLK

Webway project certainly would help things. But i'm not seeing how it was worth to seclude yourself to Terra, ignore everything else and reject any contact.

 

@Telanicus

Semantics. I'll stick to "Gods" personally. Besides Emperor never called them xenos or referred them special kind of aliens. Anything you can't dissect on the lab table is not a xeno in my book.

[Arkangilos]

@WLK

Webway project certainly would help things. But i'm not seeing how it was worth to seclude yourself to Terra, ignore everything else and reject any contact.

 

@Telanicus

Semantics. I'll stick to "Gods" personally. Besides Emperor never called them xenos or referred them special kind of aliens. Anything you can't dissect on the lab table is not a xeno in my book.

 

Horus did, and he said that the Emperor told him that. It is in the first HH book, when Loken first encounters a daemon.

[Billuriye]

Yup he does. But he says they are not life forms as we understand the term "xeno". So basically it's a stretch of the term. Doesn't really accomplish anything IMHO. It didn't make him go, "Meh, they are just xenos, not worth betraying my daddy over."

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@WLK

Webway project certainly would help things. But i'm not seeing how it was worth to seclude yourself to Terra, ignore everything else and reject any contact.

 

@Telanicus

Semantics. I'll stick to "Gods" personally. Besides Emperor never called them xenos or referred them special kind of aliens. Anything you can't dissect on the lab table is not a xeno in my book.

 

Well, he thought that Horus would be able to handle things. And Horus did well, until he got jabbed by the chaos toothpick.

 

He created a ruling body to act in his stead, and we know he didnt reject any contact because he spared the moments he could when he intervened in the Corax/Dorn conflict and then talking to Dorn personally.

 

He cant be everywhere at once. expecting him to is a tad unrealistic.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

Yup he does. But he says they are not life forms as we understand the term "xeno". So basically it's a stretch of the term. Doesn't really accomplish anything IMHO. It didn't make him go, "Meh, they are just xenos, not worth betraying my daddy over."

 

It seemed to comfort Loken a little, and as Wolf Lord Kieren said, it wasn't an issue with Horus until he got stabbed.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Yup he does. But he says they are not life forms as we understand the term "xeno". So basically it's a stretch of the term. Doesn't really accomplish anything IMHO. It didn't make him go, "Meh, they are just xenos, not worth betraying my daddy over."

 

It seemed to comfort Loken a little, and as Wolf Lord Kieren said, it wasn't an issue with Horus until he got stabbed.

 

And lets remember that Loken is told that they are "exotic xenos".

 

the Wolves see them as creatures of the Maleficarwhatever.

 

so who knows what the Primarchs were told (we do know that the EMperor told Magnus of the creatures of the warp, so who knows what he told the others?), and apparently the Primarchs instructed their men as they see fit.

 

WLK

[The_Excubitors]

Not to mention the fact that Emps ordered Rob and the Ultras to bomb a compliant planet back to the Stone Age to make the point to Lorgar that he and the 17th Legion needed to stop messing around with the whole God Emperor thing. Then he forced the Word Bearers to kneel in the ash of the destroyed cities, just to make certain said point was driven into their skulls.

 

It is clear from these new Heresy novels that, as you said, the Emperor is not a forgiving master. He is harsh, aloof and absolutely rigid when it comes to sharing knowledge or power. This may all be for good reason, as he has seen humanity rise and fall so many times, and it may also just be inevitable-because it he IS so far above and beyond everyone else. That being said, it is very clear that his inability to share knowledge with his Primarchs is what lead to his destruction. The whole Magnus thing could have easily been avoided, and certainly Lorgar could have been managed differently. Hell, and I know this is the whole point of the novels, JUST telling the primarchs about Chaos would have probably prevented some from falling under its sway. Certainly even being wary of Chaotic artifacts would have saved Fulgrim. Perhaps even Horus.

 

 

However, as previously stated, it is possible that the Primarchs were tainted from the moment they were cast into the warp in the incubation tubes (or even before? hmmm.....) and The Emperor knew they would lead to trouble. He just thought he would manage it better, or that he could complete the Great Project in time to defeat his traitor sons. I tend to believe the second of these scenarios, almost as if the Emperor foresaw this madness but felt his project was just THAT much more important.