Arkangilos Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 I still maintain that he planned it. Recalling Dorn (a master of defense) to Terra was far to convenient to have not been planned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3244900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 That's a little too much also because Dorn has been "recalled" from the backyard. To plan something like that, apart from the crappy result, would need at the least calling back the Ultramarines and NOT sending the Wolves after Magnus... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3245011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1138 Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 In hindsight, fault can be assigned to many, including: Horus, the figurehead of the Chaos force, champion, and one who gathered his brother primarchs to his cause. Erebus, who lead Horus and the legion(s) down the path. Lorgar. Magnus, who unwittingly broke the Emperor's project and set-back his plans. Russ, who followed Horus's order that countermanded his prior orders. Many, many others. However, in numerous ways, those above, including Horus, are causes of the Heresy only in hindsight. In other words, in themselves they are not enough for a Heresy to occur, as Chaos could have chosen other pawns. Because they chose these ones doesn't mean they could not have chosen other pawns. (We even get a hint from a very unreliable source, possibly a manifestation of Tzeentch, in ATS that Chaos would rather have had Magnus been it's champion than Horus. I get the feeling that the daemon was merely stroking Magnus's already considerable ego, but it is a compelling idea). In order for a Heresy to happen you need: 1) The Emperor, a powerful figure that is threatening to dominate the galaxy through his Great Crusade, and subvert warp travel through his human webway. 2) The Chaos powers, who feel to some degree threatened by him and are willing to act through proxies (although, they only ever seem to use proxies) against him. The way I see it, between these two natures and mere existence, a Heresy-like event will occur. "Fault" becomes something to redefine. Where it gets interesting, to me, is how content is Chaos with the situation in "present day 40k?" We know they keep sending Abaddon et. al. in crusades against the Emperor/Imperium, but these measures seem laughable and almost pitiable compared to what they committed during the Heresy. Perhaps they are just not trying that hard because they aren't as threatened? Can we say with confidence that Chaos is growing as a power? Seems to be the case from what GW has presented, although that could be just to further the "grim dark..." feeling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3247300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 In order for a Heresy to happen you need: 1) The Emperor, a powerful figure that is threatening to dominate the galaxy through his Great Crusade, and subvert warp travel through his human webway. 2) The Chaos powers, who feel to some degree threatened by him and are willing to act through proxies (although, they only ever seem to use proxies) against him. The way I see it, between these two natures and mere existence, a Heresy-like event will occur. "Fault" becomes something to redefine. Here is a thought experiment, regarding how much either the Emperor or the Chaos Gods are to blame for the Horus Heresy. And for this purpose, we define "the Horus Heresy" as a galaxy wide struggle that brought mankind to the brink of destruction. First, remove the Chaos Gods from the equation. In such a setting, would a galaxy wide struggle that brought mankind to the brink of destruction still have occurred? Now remove the Emperor from the equation. Same question, would there have been a galaxy wide struggle for the survival of mankind? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3247413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1138 Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 In order for a Heresy to happen you need: 1) The Emperor, a powerful figure that is threatening to dominate the galaxy through his Great Crusade, and subvert warp travel through his human webway. 2) The Chaos powers, who feel to some degree threatened by him and are willing to act through proxies (although, they only ever seem to use proxies) against him. The way I see it, between these two natures and mere existence, a Heresy-like event will occur. "Fault" becomes something to redefine. Here is a thought experiment, regarding how much either the Emperor or the Chaos Gods are to blame for the Horus Heresy. And for this purpose, we define "the Horus Heresy" as a galaxy wide struggle that brought mankind to the brink of destruction. First, remove the Chaos Gods from the equation. In such a setting, would a galaxy wide struggle that brought mankind to the brink of destruction still have occurred? Now remove the Emperor from the equation. Same question, would there have been a galaxy wide struggle for the survival of mankind? (I hope I was clear in my post that I postulated BOTH E and Chaos were necessary for the HH. Rereading my post, this may not come across). I like how you put this, Legatus, and it's an intriguing angle from which to ponder the HH. Without the E, to me the question seems pretty clear: mankind would most almost certainly be exterminated or enslaved by a xenos species, or perhaps Chaos. The thornier issue is where would mankind and the galaxy be without Chaos? How much of the Emperor's actions were dictated responses to Chaos? Plans to preempt them? We can speculate that without the Chaos Gods, the Emperor would still probably be alive and functioning, the galaxy would be somewhat less grim, although many threats would still lurk in the corners (Tyranids, C'tan, etc). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3247441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolia Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 In order for a Heresy to happen you need: 1) The Emperor, a powerful figure that is threatening to dominate the galaxy through his Great Crusade, and subvert warp travel through his human webway. 2) The Chaos powers, who feel to some degree threatened by him and are willing to act through proxies (although, they only ever seem to use proxies) against him. The way I see it, between these two natures and mere existence, a Heresy-like event will occur. "Fault" becomes something to redefine. Here is a thought experiment, regarding how much either the Emperor or the Chaos Gods are to blame for the Horus Heresy. And for this purpose, we define "the Horus Heresy" as a galaxy wide struggle that brought mankind to the brink of destruction. First, remove the Chaos Gods from the equation. In such a setting, would a galaxy wide struggle that brought mankind to the brink of destruction still have occurred? Now remove the Emperor from the equation. Same question, would there have been a galaxy wide struggle for the survival of mankind? Answer to 1) Without Chaos there would have possibly been more friction between brothers - but no schism for mankind. Answer to 2) Without the Emperor, Chaos would rule supreme. Mankind goes bye bye. Incidentally...could it be argued that the Emperor was to blame by making each Primarch the way that he did? If they had of had all of his qualities rather than one/whatever each and been proper little Mini Me clones, would they Primarchs then theoretically be better able to withstand the whisperings of the dark gods? Just a ponder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3247442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1138 Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Incidentally...could it be argued that the Emperor was to blame by making each Primarch the way that he did? This question is one of the most important, and contested, of the HH. We can say that, while the Emperor created the Primarchs, Chaos had some contact, at least in scattering and influencing some of their development (Sang's wings). Back in 2nd Ed. Codex Imperialis, under Primarchs, it says: "He (the Emperor) created twenty super-human creatures, twenty beings whose powers equalled, and in some respects exceeded, his own" (p.20). This has fallen out of favor, as the Emperor of BL's HH series so far has been presented as superior (as in more powerful) than the primarchs. It would be a clear mistake of the Emperor to create "sons" he knew could betray him and make them stronger than him, and this could be a ret-con I can live with (whether or not he knew the Primarchs were capable of betraying him is another issue, but I feel like it's safe to say he would at least have considered the possibility). The Primarchs loyalties are a prime target for the Chaos gods. As to how much influence Chaos had on the Primarchs (even on the E to create the Primarchs), we don't have enough information to say for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3247457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Nature v Nurture. Emperor created the Primarchs but he didn't raise them. Would Angron have been a psycho if raised by the Emperor or would he have simply been filled with righteous fury (since the War Hounds were a little agro before him)? Would Curze have been a super-mega-dark batman or would he have been a fair and even force of justice? Would Lorgar have been the ultimate spreader of the Imperial Truth rather than worship?...etc. I know there's the idea floating around that all twenty Primarch brought balance to each other and together were solid. Take two out and it fell apart. Would they be missing if the Primarchs had all stayed with the Emperor? There are multitudes of stages where if things had happened differently there may not have been a heresy. Anyone could be claimed to THE reason but in isolation none were. Much like the accident at Chernobyl, it took many different things all coming together to cause the problem. Plenty were completely avoidable with hindsight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3247733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Excubitors Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Where it gets interesting, to me, is how content is Chaos with the situation in "present day 40k?" We know they keep sending Abaddon et. al. in crusades against the Emperor/Imperium, but these measures seem laughable and almost pitiable compared to what they committed during the Heresy. Perhaps they are just not trying that hard because they aren't as threatened? Can we say with confidence that Chaos is growing as a power? Seems to be the case from what GW has presented, although that could be just to further the "grim dark..." feeling. My impression is that the Chaos gods have achieved exactly what they had planned. Reading from LEGION and other notable instances of the Cabal discussing the Primordial Annihilator, it seems that the current 41st millennium is precisely the breeding ground for this beast of chaos that they so feared. Endless war, constant suffering and an endless supply of weak humans ready to be converted to cultists. I always thought this state of war was what they wanted, not some victory for Horus or Abanddon or any other pitful servant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3247912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1138 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Nature v Nurture. Emperor created the Primarchs but he didn't raise them. Would Angron have been a psycho if raised by the Emperor or would he have simply been filled with righteous fury (since the War Hounds were a little agro before him)? Would Curze have been a super-mega-dark batman or would he have been a fair and even force of justice? Would Lorgar have been the ultimate spreader of the Imperial Truth rather than worship?...etc. I know it's been argued before, but I think it can't be stated enough. Some believe Nature vs Nurture to be a false dichotomy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy (I've studied this a fair bit, and can't state a positive position, but lean toward false dichotomy) Perhaps the Primarchs actions were dictated not by their environment, nature, or even an interaction between the two. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_vs_nur...al_difficulties Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/257967-whos-fault-was-the-heresy/page/6/#findComment-3247939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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