Knights Terror; first working draft

[Lord Scytha]

The finished text about this chapter will contain hidden clues and secrets. To help with critic I'll point them out in the drafts.

Therefore if you don't want to find out stop reading now.

 

The <<Knights Terror>>

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<<Chapter>> Battle-Brother

(Yes pun very much intended. The name actually manage to convey three aspects about the chapter.)

 

The concept for the chapter is that it was created in secret during the 13th founding to counter a single threat foretold by the Emperor himself back when he could move about. They succeed but it took them four thousand years and nearly destroyed them but as a reward they got a nice quite farm in the country to retire too. Sorta at least. :)

 

Want to try and create a text with enough hints and half truths that the reader goes; “Hmm, wonder what they did.” and gets enough material to make (if the reader is smart) some pretty accurate guesses without ever actually finding out.

 

Another thing I want to accomplish is to convey the duality theme that runs through the chapter. Expecially the contrast between the Heroic saviour and murderous bogeyman. Not happy with it yet so suggestions are welcome.

 

Finally this is just the first draft and will get exstensively rewritten because frankly at the moment the style is horrendous. Therefore I haven't bothered to fix grammar and spelling as thoroughly as I could have.

 

I'll use footnotes in each section to comment on details in the text.

 

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<<description of the Chapter's organization>>

The Knights Terror Chapter organisation follows the Codex Astartes faithfully with one minor exception. Ever since the time of rebuilding, the Scout Company is constantly kept over strength at between five to twenty percent depending on the influx of new recruits.

The Chapter still retains an unusually large fleet from before they settled down in the Tarsus System. [1]

It’s large enough that even though the chapter keeps the Battle Barge The Void Annihilator [2] and two strike cruisers along with a dozen strike vessels at the Tarsus System at all times guarding the nexus, the chapter can still support its combat operations with enough fleet assets to rival a fleet based chapter.

 

[1] This was written before i fleshed out the fleet part in the origin section. This fills the same purpose. Though it now feels a bit redundant.

 

[2] This horrible name is actually just a place holder for a better name that will work as a big clue. Problem is I haven't manage to come up with a name that in some way refers to the void outside the galaxy.

 

Homeworld

<<description of the Chapter's homeworld>>

The Knights Terror has it home in the Tarsus system, a strategically placed system in the Cibius sector. The uninhabited Tarsus system has only a single planet, Arges. Arges is huge Jovian gas giant twice the size of Jupiter. Arges gets its name from the eternal storm that straddles its equator and covers a quarter of the giant’s area, staring out into the void like a baleful eye. [1]

The Knights Terror has placed their fortress monastery on the largest moon around Arges.

The Chapter have converted the airless moon into an enormous orbital station. Its core riddled with living quarters, armouries, forges and huge kilometre-sized training chambers that simulate the environment of dozens different types of warzones where the chapter’s recruits is trained.

The surface of the moon has been converted into enormous docking facilities allowing the chapters strike vessels and even their battle barges to dock directly with the fortress.

Other smaller moons and asteroids around the gas giant have gone through similar conversions turning them into defensive stations and docking facilities for visiting ships.

The Tarsus system is the nexus for an unusually large number of stable warp corridors both for travel within the Cibius sector and to the rest of the segmentum and beyond. This allows the Chapter to rapidly respond to dangers with a minimum of travel time. The Chapter’s presence in the system also denies the enemies of the Imperium the use of the Tarsus nexus and the warp corridors.

As the Tarsus system is uninhabited the chapter maintains a dozen chapter keeps on feral and feudal worlds in the Cibius sector and its neighbouring sectors for recruitment purposes. [2]

 

[1] Stop saying Arges.

 

[2] I know that properly an IA should have a recruitment section. It just feels so unnecessary at the present since it won't be much more exciting that that line. Beside that line blend in so nicely with the rest of the section.

 

Combat Doctrine

<<description of the Chapter's combat doctrine>>

The knights Terror excel at terror campaigns that targets the enemy’s mind as much as any physical assets.

Through a series of surgical strikes, assassinations and acts of terrorism the Knights Terror sow fear and confusion among their foes, often without their foe even knowing whom they are fighting.

So when the conventional assault of the Knights Terror finally strikes the foes are so demoralized that they can’t put up much of a fight.

It is a tactic that has proven especially effective at quelling rebellious imperial worlds. Their terror campaigns creates an atmosphere of xenophobic fear that drives the population back to the safety and familiarity of the Administration and the Imperial cult so that when the Knights Terror reveals themselves they are greeted as saviours by the large majority. [1]

While their methods have at times been criticised for being slower than those of their more direct brother chapters, they are undoubtedly just as effective with the added benefit of requiring less manpower and resources, not to mention saving vital infrastructure from getting damaged in combat.

The basing of the chapter in the Cibius sector with its many stable and far reaching warp corridors has given the chapter a slightly defensive posture with its companies acting as strategic reserve and rapid response forces for other already developed combat zones.[2] Because of this and the importance of the Cibius sector itself depending of the needs of other campaigns the chapter tries to maintain a special strike force at their Fortress Monastery ready to defend the sector or come to the aid of imperial forces in peril. [3] The strike force consists of one squad from each of the reserve companies reinforced by a single combat squad of veterans from the first company. It’s primarily geared towards anti shipping operations and drop pod assaults. [4]

 

[1] First mention of the duality theme of the chapter.

 

[2] This will be the excuse why the chapter isn't more well known. Though I'll probably not make it any more obvious that this.

 

[3] This should probably be part of the organisation section but I feel it fits in more here.

 

[4] This strike force is included partly because if you are charged with defending a place it makes sense detailing some defender to that place and this mentions the defenders. Secondly, I just find it interesting how if you just take one squad from each of the reserve companies you get a fairly well rounded and effective force. It's a neat organizational trick hidden in the structure of how a codex chapter is organise that I felt like pointing out.

 

Geneseed

Author

<<Note about the author>>

<<description of the Chapter's gene-seed source, mutations, and defects>>

Since no records exists regarding the origin of the chapter’s gene-seed only speculation based on examination of the Chapter’s current gene-seed can try an answer the question from whom the chapter is descendants off. The issue have however divided the scholars since one theory states that the chapter is successors to Corvax and the Raven Guard since some minor flaw in the gene-seed have cause the skin pigmentation of about half the marines in the chapter to turn white. The opposing theory however states that it is the successor to Vulkan and the Salamanders since the same flaw cause the skin pigmentation of the rest of marines to turn black.

Those Magos who have examined the chapter’s tithe states that Guilliman and the Ultramarines are more likely since, with the exception of the pigmentation flaw the gene-seed are unusual pure and stable.

The chapter itself claim they have no record regarding their origin but states that it is of no interests to them since they regard themselves as descendants from the Emperor through his sons the Primarchs. [1]

 

[1] Not much to say about this section than that is just used to put some focus on the duality theme.

 

beliefs

<<description of the Chapter's beliefs>>

 

The Knights Terror reveres the Emperor as the supreme example of Man and the architect that built the Empire and fathered the Primarch and the Astartes. As such the Chapter sees him as the guiding force behind the Glory and ascension of Humankind. At the same time they acknowledge that he could only accomplish this through the death and destruction of military conquest and that the astartes was designed to be his avenging angels. Therefore they also pay homage to him as the defender of man and the destroyer of its foes.

The chapters venerate the Emperor through two warrior lodges called the Brotherhood of the Light and The Brotherhood of the Dark, each venerating one of the aspects of the Emperor.

The membership in the lodges isn’t fixed instead the Marines in the Chapter switch lodge depending on type of personal goals and ambitions they have at a given moment. For example Battle Brothers who have taken oaths of vengeance or repenting or who have been tasked with destroying a specific foe joins the Brotherhood of the Dark that venerate the Emperor as the death dealer. While Battle Brothers whom are starting new project or are training to master a new weapon joins the Brotherhood of the Light that venerate the Emperor as the creator. Scouts who are learning to become a full Marine and Marines whom just have join a new speciality such as the Assault Marines or Devastators are commonly found in the Brotherhood of Light. [1]

 

[1] Not particularly happy with this entire section. It was the hardest to write and I'm not sure I succeed with what I wanted. I want the chapter to see the emperor as a man, not god. I want them to "worship" two differnt aspects of him, one positive and creative and one negative and destructive.

 

Related Articles

 

Possible side bars ideas. Haven’t decided which I’ll use except for the cibius sector one. That one is given. And probably the the crossroad one since it contains both a clue and a red herring plus a little more goodies about the chapter.

 

A golden crossroad.

More than half of the shipping in the Cibius sector and the surrounding sectors pass through the Tarsus nexus. Over a hundred freighters pass through the nexus and the Tarsus system on a daily basis. The tolls and tariffs the Knights Terror collect has made the chapter very wealthy.

The chapter also maintain very good relations with the Imperial Navy. Navy and Knights Terror ships often accompany each other when journeys and patrols intersect. [1] Capital ships of the Imperial Navy regularly put in on naval visits to the inner orbit of the Arges to pay their respects to the Chapter. Now and then Rough Traders that normally ply the Halo stars put in around the Arges too. But what they are doing so deep inside the galaxy or what their business are with the Chapter neither the Rough Traders nor the Knights Terror will say. [2]

 

[1] Not sure how to phrase this to make it more clear. I don't want it to sound like they cooperate much but just that if a SM ship and a navy ship is going in the same direction they will go together until their paths divide again.

 

[2] Are not sure if this should be a stand alone side bar or just added to the Cibius sidebar.

 

The Cibius[3] Sector

LOCATION [4]

Though strategically placed its location is not why the small Cibius sector is of vital importance to the Imperium.

It contains an unusual high percentage of high yield Agri worlds. 62% percent of all the worlds in the sector are Agri worlds and even many of the rest of the worlds foodstuffs makes up the majority of their exports. This have dubbed the area of space the Cibius sector is located in “The breadbasket of the XXX.” Food exported from the Cibius sector not only feed hundreds of planets in the segmentum Solar but large quantities also goes to feed vital worlds in other parts of the galaxy such as the planets around the Cadian Gate and even Holy Terra itself.

 

[3] Wanna see if you can spot the easter egg.

 

[4] I know where it's location is in the universe. It's somwere in the Segmentum Solar on the boarder to the segmentum obscura somewhere between Fenris, Armageddon, Vanahiem and Paramar. But I don't know how to describe the location except like that.

 

 

 

The six minute battle.

During the Gothic War an undefended convoy of evacuation ships carrying imperial citizens from the war torn segmentum Obscura fled through the warp chased by a chaos fleet. Over thirty civilian ships carrying over 1.5 million souls hurled themselves out of the Tarsus nexus fleeing towards the safety of the systems inner asteroid belt, hoping to hide from their pursuers. Four capital ships, half a dozen light cruisers and a score of chaos escort rushed after them, only minutes from weapons range when the first of the civilian ships reached the asteroids.

Where unbeknownst to both forces the ships, orbital forts and fortified asteroids of the Knights Terror were waiting along with the Battle Barge The Void Annihilator

The Chaos fleet were seconds from firing at the rearmost fleeing ship and deep in the Knight Terror’s killing zone when the Imperial trap was sprung.

Just six minutes later the last space marine gun fell silent and the only thing remaining of the entire chaos fleet was just an expanding cloud of plasma and debris. None of the civilian ships had been hurt and the refugees were all safe.

The engagement was recorded to be the shortest decisive battle during the entire war.

 

[5] Just a blurb to point out that if you want something defended properly, like for example a warp corridor nexus, you have a space marine chapter make it their home. Just a mood piece really. However, if I lose the big fleet paragraph in the organisation section I need this to include the Void Annihilator clue.

 

The cleansing of Nema VI

Nema VI was a hive world which in late M40 fell under the sway of a heretical cult. As riots and uprisings erupted throughout the hives, under the influence of the cult the Planet Governor declared that the planet had seceded from the Imperium. Only the Arbites and the Ecclesiarchystayed loyal but their forces were under siege in Precinct Houses and Cathedrals.

It was the Knights Terror who received the honour of bringing the planet back into the fold of the Emperor’s light again and immediately dispatched a strike force. Upon arrival to Nema VI the Knights Terror commenced a three months long terror campaign of murder and destruction that fostered a strong xenophobic fear in the population of the planet that billions of hivers turned to the Ecclesiarchy for protection while blaming the act of the Knights Terror on the heretical cult. When the Knights Terror finally decided to attack openly they did not meet any resistance. Instead they were greeted as saviours and protector by a population hysterical with religious fervour. After securing the planetary defences the space marines of the strike force just had to stand and watch as the hives under the guidance of the Ecclesiarchy erupted with redemptions crusades that cleansed with fire anyone even suspected of affiliation with the heretics. First to burn was the planetary Governour and for one month over ten million citizens were put to the stake by the inflamed population.

Since that time each year for one month the hives of Nema VI erupts in new purges as tens of thousands are burnt to keep the planet pure from any taint in the future. [6]

 

[6] Again an attempt to show of the duality theme plus an attempt to show the consequence of using terror to save someone.

 

 

Possible ideas to be incorporated. But at the moment they just feel a bit too much and not particularly fitting with the theme and feeling of the chapter

 

They recruit by tithing worlds on babies, including demanding a dozen children for each fallen battle brother in the defence of a planet.

 

They are obsessed with seeking out prophesies and either thwarting them or fulfilling them depending on what the end result of the prophesy is. Their Librarians travel around the universe collecting texts containing prophesies.

 

 

 

Thoughts, opinions and suggestions are welcome.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ok, first off, 'hidden clues and secrets' doesn't really work well in the Liber. An IA is supposed to be the answer to the question of what a chapter truly is. While some things should remain hinted at and not necessarily set in stone, creating things to be hidden isn't the best idea.

 

An example of what should be hinted at. The 13th Dark Founding. This is a good part of the IA and I fully support it :)

 

An example what shouldn't be hinted at. Your chapter is secretly necrons who worship the T'au with jet-packs built into their feet. Or really, anything that marks them out as 'we're the best' or 'most awesomest' or along those lines.

 

A chapter should be cool and enticing, something interesting that draws the reader in, without confusing them. It shouldn't suggest that all its marines do is roflstomp all day long.

 

2) I'm just not sure about the name Knights Terror. Knight's Terror, however, would be much better and let's you keep the pun, name, and stay grammaticly correct. Apostrophes are amazing.

 

Origins - The only major criticism is that they would have shown up in Imperial records somewhere. They need to restock eventually, especially with that large a fleet. Saying they showed up sporadicly over the course of x years to do so and then disapeared for a while is just as fine and mysterious. The rest is fine, it actually sounds pretty good :D

 

Organisation - 1) It is fine, repeating things in an IA isn't usually too bad :) 2) Legend of the Void? The Pilgrim into the Void? Void's Touch? Fire of the Void? Smurfity Smurf Smurf Smurf Voidity Void Void Void?

 

Homeworld - 1) The second time you use Arges can be replaced with 'this planet', and believe me I feel your pain when it comes to avoiding repeating names, my short stories have characters that can only be called so many things... 2) It's fine as is.

 

Combat Doctrine - 1) I actually really like this. 2) This would actually make the chapter more well known as they come riding in to save the day ;) 3) Mention it in the Organisation as well, but briefly, and then explain why they have it in this section.

 

Geneseed - This probably needs the most revision so far.

Those Magos who have examined the chapter’s tithe states that Guilliman and the Ultramarines are more likely since, with

That in particular confuses me to no end. The other thing is that they claim they are the Emperor's sons through the primarchs bit. Saying that they acknowledge it is probably better because it's pretty hard to be a loyalist astarte and not be a child of a primarch.

 

Beliefs - Pretty good, actually. Death lord needs to go though, even in a 40k article that sounds incredibly cheesy. Focus more on what they are revering and that both are two halves of a single whole.

 

Let me give you an example, because I can't really say it in a clear way :P

 

"The Knight's Terror seek to emulate the Emperor in both forms. He has proven himself capable of bringing order and peace, raising up civilization to meet it's highest ideals. The Emperor has always built the Imperium on war and the complete destruction of his foes, and has never hesitated to do so. The chapter has formed lodges representing either extreme of their patiarch, but they always come together to serve the needs of the Imperium and preserve the Knight's as a whole."

 

That, in your own words - so what you already wrote, just expand on it :tu:

 

Sidebar section? -

1) It's fine, but the second time you mention the Imperial Navy and the Knights fleet just say 'the two groups'.

2) Add it to the Sibius sidebar.

3) No clue.

4) You just described it ;)

5) Good, just throw it up in Word to correct spelling and punctuation mistakes.

6) Each year? The planet would be empty pretty quick.

 

Also do not include tithing babies. Recruits are fine. Infants are not.

 

 

Hope this helped :D

[Lord Scytha]

Good feedback. Gave me lots of things to think about. Thanks.

 

Ok, first off, 'hidden clues and secrets' doesn't really work well in the Liber. An IA is supposed to be the answer to the question of what a chapter truly is. While some things should remain hinted at and not necessarily set in stone, creating things to be hidden isn't the best idea.

 

An example of what should be hinted at. The 13th Dark Founding. This is a good part of the IA and I fully support it thumbsup.gif

 

An example what shouldn't be hinted at. Your chapter is secretly necrons who worship the T'au with jet-packs built into their feet. Or really, anything that marks them out as 'we're the best' or 'most awesomest' or along those lines.

 

A chapter should be cool and enticing, something interesting that draws the reader in, without confusing them. It shouldn't suggest that all its marines do is roflstomp all day long.

 

I agree with this which is why the duality theme is kept front and centre. The thing that I'm trying to keep "secret" is what they did for the those millennia they were off the radar. Basically the concept for that is the the high lord of terra used the secrecy of the dark founding to create a chapter to counter a threat the emperor himself foretold would appear and that the chapter had to go beyond the Halo stars to combat this threat.

Now to be obvious with something like that in an DIY is a bit presumption and if someone would try it would probably be shouted down. But if you could get that across through nicely veiled hints (I do want people to be able to figure it out) through out the entire IA it should work.

 

And before anyone say something I'm not doing it to make the chapter supercool (though it's a nice side effect :D ). I just want to do a chapter that does the dark founding justice. The basic idea behind the 13th is that it was the secret founding where chapters were founded in secret and without a trace to full fill some hidden agenda of the High Lords. Trouble (imho) is that the two official chapters the Death Spectres and Exorcist doesn't do it justice. I wanted to have a feeling of the secrecy infused in the founding.

By sending them off into space you can get some oompf in background without interfering with canon.

 

2) I'm just not sure about the name Knights Terror. Knight's Terror, however, would be much better and let's you keep the pun, name, and stay grammaticly correct. Apostrophes are amazing.

 

Trouble is that chapter names is generally plural based. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Irond Lords, Sons of Orar and so on. While Knight's Terror work just as well and is grammatical correct it just refers to a single knight. But I'll think about it.

 

Origins - The only major criticism is that they would have shown up in Imperial records somewhere. They need to restock eventually, especially with that large a fleet. Saying they showed up sporadicly over the course of x years to do so and then disapeared for a while is just as fine and mysterious. The rest is fine, it actually sounds pretty good

 

That's where the Rouge Traders comes in. That the chapter cooperated with Rouge Trader Houses in the Halo stars to get those supplies they couldn't fabricate themselves. I have two references to traders but maybe I should try and push it even more? The traders are also one of the clues to the Halo stars and beyond.

 

Geneseed - This probably needs the most revision so far.

QUOTE

Those Magos who have examined the chapter’s tithe states that Guilliman and the Ultramarines are more likely since, with

That in particular confuses me to no end. The other thing is that they claim they are the Emperor's sons through the primarchs bit. Saying that they acknowledge it is probably better because it's pretty hard to be a loyalist astarte and not be a child of a primarch.

 

Think the first quote is a typo. ;)

 

Actually, I wasn't trying to make them claim that they were the Emperor's sons. I was going for grandsons (since isn't the emperor technically the space marines grandfather?). (I'm so making a chapter that calls the emperor grandpa ;) ) But I'll think about making it clearer.

 

 

6) Each year? The planet would be empty pretty quick.

 

I think a Hive planet with an population in excess of 20 billion can tolerate having a few hundred thousand people culled every year. Heck, we're talking 40k, they're probably losing that twice number just from bureaucratic mistakes each year.

[Orlunu]

Just gonna briefly comment on the comment first, then will get to the draft :P

 

Not trying to challenge Dark Apostle Thirst with any of this, just saying where I got a different view on my first reading.

First off, if the mystery factor is at the heart of the chapter then don't blow it up, but just hint at it, just enough so that people know that something happened, not constantly drawing their attention to it. A bit of mystery can really add to fluff, and has in some of the best cannon. Might be agreeing or disagreeing with him here, not quite sure. The second point was just that I thought that the quote was them calling the Emperor grandaddy and nothing more.

 

Red boxy numbers

All of these were just what came to me, suggestions that might lead to inspiration for a few ^_^

 

Origins

2 Just refer to it as "divine foresight" still says it's him, but doesn't actually say the big E word

4 Back to safer lands

 

Organisation

2 "Edge Dancer" springs to mind, suggests leaning out in to the aching void, but I have an odd feeling that I'm looting this from some book or another ^_^

 

Homeworld

1+2 I Agree, can't actually remember what I agree with, but that's what it says in my notebook.

 

Combat doctrine

3 could combine /w scout line "The Knights Terror Chapter organisation follows the Codex Astartes faithfully with minor flexibility additions. Ever since the time of rebuilding, the Scout Company is constantly kept over strength at between five to twenty percent depending on the influx of new recruits, and a half-company has been kept battle-ready abord the fleet above (insert name of moon here(It really does need one is it's where your fortress monastery is))" and keep what you have as well. Puts it in both places in a slightly different way, and I like to think that this adds to the "what's up with that flotilla?" factor you wanted.

 

Beliefs

1 "contemplate"/"draw inspiration from" rather than "venerate" more like the ultimate role-model than a god.

 

Related articles

Partway between 1 and 2 *Rogue

3. No, nor did I get any of the clues (and would never have unless I had reread it and seen the spoiler alert :)), nor in fact did I notice the red herring. Observant as a Cyclops with sand in his eye.

4. Wish I could help, took a look at Segmentum Solar on the WH40k galactic map, thought "By God, they've misplaced the sun by 35,000 lightyears!" and gave up on the spot. Although I admit that it was probably me who was wrong. :wacko:

 

Also, abolish the aberrant apostrophe.

And on apostrophes "Knights's Terror" is correct, although my computer dislikes it.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

2) I'm just not sure about the name Knights Terror. Knight's Terror, however, would be much better and let's you keep the pun, name, and stay grammaticly correct. Apostrophes are amazing.

 

Trouble is that chapter names is generally plural based. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Irond Lords, Sons of Orar and so on. While Knight's Terror work just as well and is grammatical correct it just refers to a single knight. But I'll think about it.

 

 

Yes and no. Knight's Terror would be a Knight terrified of something - which would refer to the chapter as a whole :wacko:

 

Origins - The only major criticism is that they would have shown up in Imperial records somewhere. They need to restock eventually, especially with that large a fleet. Saying they showed up sporadicly over the course of x years to do so and then disapeared for a while is just as fine and mysterious. The rest is fine, it actually sounds pretty good

 

That's where the Rouge Traders comes in. That the chapter cooperated with Rouge Trader Houses in the Halo stars to get those supplies they couldn't fabricate themselves. I have two references to traders but maybe I should try and push it even more? The traders are also one of the clues to the Halo stars and beyond.

 

 

My bad, I have little information on Rogue Traders, so you should be fine ^_^

Geneseed - This probably needs the most revision so far.

QUOTE

Those Magos who have examined the chapter’s tithe states that Guilliman and the Ultramarines are more likely since, with

That in particular confuses me to no end. The other thing is that they claim they are the Emperor's sons through the primarchs bit. Saying that they acknowledge it is probably better because it's pretty hard to be a loyalist astarte and not be a child of a primarch.

 

Think the first quote is a typo. :P

 

Actually, I wasn't trying to make them claim that they were the Emperor's sons. I was going for grandsons (since isn't the emperor technically the space marines grandfather?). (I'm so making a chapter that calls the emperor grandpa ^_^ ) But I'll think about making it clearer.

 

Emperor's sons, grandsons, same difference :)

 

6) Each year? The planet would be empty pretty quick.

 

I think a Hive planet with an population in excess of 20 billion can tolerate having a few hundred thousand people culled every year. Heck, we're talking 40k, they're probably losing that twice number just from bureaucratic mistakes each year.

If you say so...

[Octavulg]

The difficulty with Knight's Terror as a name (in addition to it not even vaguely working with any established naming aesthetics) is that it's cumbersome to talk about an individual marine of the chapter.

 

You could just flat-out call them the Night Terrors. Rather Chaosy, but so's Flesh Eaters.

 

The whole unique and special mission angle...feels like an attempt to make your chapter unique and special.

 

Also, why do they need to be Dark Founding?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The whole unique and special mission angle...feels like an attempt to make your chapter unique and special.

 

Also, why do they need to be Dark Founding?

You're answering your own question there :(

[Lord Scytha]

The difficulty with Knight's Terror as a name (in addition to it not even vaguely working with any established naming aesthetics) is that it's cumbersome to talk about an individual marine of the chapter.

 

You could just flat-out call them the Night Terrors. Rather Chaosy, but so's Flesh Eaters.

 

Right, I don't get that since it's basically a adjective noun name like 90% of every chapter out there, official and DIY have. Fine I admit that thinking about it, it's more correctly a noun adjective name but the principle is the same.

Though I admit that you might have a point about speaking about an individual marine. Though I think the problem is sort of related to how you deal with the Knights Templar and Knight Templar. It is the first word that carries the plural and singular. Just as with Judge advocate and Judges advocate, and Surgeon General and Surgeons General.

 

The Thunderhawk bearing Knights Templar heraldry touched down on the landing pad. The ramp lowered and down walked a Knight Templar in power armour.

The Thunderhawk bearing the Knights Terror heraldry touched down on the landing pad. The ramp lowered and down walked a Knight Terror in power armour.

 

As for the apostrophe discussion. Having english as my second langue I admit that you lost me at Knights's...

 

The whole unique and special mission angle...feels like an attempt to make your chapter unique and special.

 

Also, why do they need to be Dark Founding?

You're answering your own question there :)

 

What he said. ;)

 

Actually, what I want is to make an IA that makes the secrecy of the Dark founding justice. I want a chapter founded in secret as the lore says the chapters during the 13th were and for them to be created in secret it's only logical that it was for some sort secret mission.

I mean why have a secret founding if your intention is just to let the chapters romp around space like the rest of the space marines.

 

As for it making it unique and special, sure in away it is but then isn't that the goal of all IAs to find something that makes it unique and special compared to all the other chapters. What's the difference having a chapter go off on a secret mission beyond space to fight from having a chapter living on a floating city that falls down through a gas giant which leads to a possible civil war within the chapter.

 

Though, for something that's supposed to make a chapter special this secret mission stuff will probably fail horribly seeing how a reader of the finished IA won't actually learn about it from a straight read through. Since in true spirit of the 13th it will only be hinted at.

 

I'm actually hoping the duality theme is what will make the chapter unique and special compared to other chapters. This secret mission stuff is sort of an Easter egg kind of deal.

 

 

 

 

Speaking of easter eggs; google Cibius latin. Click the first link (google's suggestion) and the reread the concept for the chapter.

 

 

 

Still this gave me some interesting things to think about.

[Orlunu]

Top result:

 

Ostracion cibius

This boxfish exhibits considerable color change through its life. As a juvenile, it looks like a bright yellow dice. As it grows, the color becomes brown overall, retaining its dark spots. Like its cousins, it is best housed with non-aggressive tankmates. If housed with aggressive feeders, it may have trouble competing for food. It is possible to keep more than one in the same tank (especially young individuals), but adult males may quarrel. It will not usually bother other fishes. It is a larger boxfish that will need lots of open swimming space. This species has been known to "nuke" an entire tank of fishes. This occurs most often when the fish is stressed. Make sure you do not keep it with fishes that will pick on it and remove it immediately if it is being harassed or looks as though it may die. (They sometimes release lethal amounts of their body slime when they die.) This species is susceptible to Cryptocaryon and Lymphocystis. It is best not to house it with cleaner wrasses, as these wrasses will incessantly chase and try to clean them. The species is notably difficult to keep and not covered by our live arrival guarantee. This item should only be attempted by experienced hobbyists.

 

Yellow boxfish, is this one of them red herrings? :)

 

My latin isn't good enough to work out what you are getting at. Unless you actually are saying that your marines explode in noxious slime when they die. This would probably arouse the interest of the big =][=

 

 

On apostrophes: Of Richard is "Richard's"

If the word ends with an "s" it takes the form "Knights's"

UNLESS it is the name of a classical figure in which case it goes like "Germanicus'"

 

The bottom line breaks logic engines's minds, so the computer uses s' in both cases, leading to this becoming the norm. Attempting to enforce it is the job of the denizens of only the deepest levels of pedantry. On that note, the owner of "clownfishworld.com" wrote "fishes" in the description; this from a person so devoted to fish that he owns a website about them. :D

[Octavulg]

Right, I don't get that since it's basically a adjective noun name like 90% of every chapter out there, official and DIY have. Fine I admit that thinking about it, it's more correctly a noun adjective name but the principle is the same.

 

Not just that. It also is a singular concept, rather than a plural group of things.

 

Though I admit that you might have a point about speaking about an individual marine. Though I think the problem is sort of related to how you deal with the Knights Templar and Knight Templar. It is the first word that carries the plural and singular. Just as with Judge advocate and Judges advocate, and Surgeon General and Surgeons General.

 

Except it doesn't, because there's an apostrophe. Without the apostrophe, it should be Knights Terrible, Knights Terrific, or Knights Terrifying. Or Knights Terrorem, if you want to be pseudo-Latiny.

 

As for the apostrophe discussion. Having english as my second langue I admit that you lost me at Knights's...

 

Apostrophes work roughly as follows:

Knight: a guy in armor on a horse.

Knights: several guys in armor on horses.

Knight's: belongs to a knight.

Knights': belongs to a group of knights (you can also say knights's - but the way I've just described is apparently the older way, and undeniably easy to put into practice).

 

Actually, what I want is to make an IA that makes the secrecy of the Dark founding justice. I want a chapter founded in secret as the lore says the chapters during the 13th were and for them to be created in secret it's only logical that it was for some sort secret mission.

I mean why have a secret founding if your intention is just to let the chapters romp around space like the rest of the space marines.

 

If you're part of a secret founding, why wouldn't you/that stay a secret?

 

As for it making it unique and special, sure in away it is but then isn't that the goal of all IAs to find something that makes it unique and special compared to all the other chapters. What's the difference having a chapter go off on a secret mission beyond space to fight from having a chapter living on a floating city that falls down through a gas giant which leads to a possible civil war within the chapter.

 

Please. It's an ice world. :D

 

More to the point, that's things happening that happen to be unique and special, not the hand of the High Lords reaching out and saying, "You. You are our chosen instrument, who shall be unique and special, and shall do something no one else can." :)

 

Plus, wouldn't an established chapter be better to deal with such a threat, anyway?

[StGene]

Perhaps "Terror Knights" would be a better name?

[Lord Scytha]

Top result:

 

Ostracion cibius

This boxfish exhibits considerable color change through its life. As a juvenile, it looks like a bright yellow dice. As it grows, the color becomes brown overall, retaining its dark spots. Like its cousins, it is best housed with non-aggressive tankmates. If housed with aggressive feeders, it may have trouble competing for food. It is possible to keep more than one in the same tank (especially young individuals), but adult males may quarrel. It will not usually bother other fishes. It is a larger boxfish that will need lots of open swimming space. This species has been known to "nuke" an entire tank of fishes. This occurs most often when the fish is stressed. Make sure you do not keep it with fishes that will pick on it and remove it immediately if it is being harassed or looks as though it may die. (They sometimes release lethal amounts of their body slime when they die.) This species is susceptible to Cryptocaryon and Lymphocystis. It is best not to house it with cleaner wrasses, as these wrasses will incessantly chase and try to clean them. The species is notably difficult to keep and not covered by our live arrival guarantee. This item should only be attempted by experienced hobbyists.

 

Yellow boxfish, is this one of them red herrings? ;)

 

My latin isn't good enough to work out what you are getting at. Unless you actually are saying that your marines explode in noxious slime when they die. This would probably arouse the interest of the big =][=

 

That's weird. I don't get that at all. For me the first link is Google trying to auto correct the spelling for Cibius and the second link is to a Latin site doing the same. Maybe you didn't google both cibius and Latin at the same time.

 

Right, I don't get that since it's basically a adjective noun name like 90% of every chapter out there, official and DIY have. Fine I admit that thinking about it, it's more correctly a noun adjective name but the principle is the same.

 

Not just that. It also is a singular concept, rather than a plural group of things.

 

 

I kind of disagree that it's a singular concept. Knights is one concept, that of noble heroes in shiny armour. Terror is actually two other concept, that of the feeling of intense, mind numbing fear and the use of violence for intimidation and coercion aka. Terrorism.

The idea behind the name is really Knights Terrorists. But with terrorist shortened both to get a more poetic name and not to be too obvious.

 

Though I admit that you might have a point about speaking about an individual marine. Though I think the problem is sort of related to how you deal with the Knights Templar and Knight Templar. It is the first word that carries the plural and singular. Just as with Judge advocate and Judges advocate, and Surgeon General and Surgeons General.

 

Except it doesn't, because there's an apostrophe. Without the apostrophe, it should be Knights Terrible, Knights Terrific, or Knights Terrifying. Or Knights Terrorem, if you want to be pseudo-Latiny.

 

 

Are you telling me that Knights Templar should really be spelled Knights' Templar or that the word Terror can't be used in combination with Knights with out an apostrophe. In the latter case why? Is it because terror is generally a noun?

Then how come no one argues the same with the Knights Sangreal on the same principle, which literally means Knights Grail?

 

Actually, what I want is to make an IA that makes the secrecy of the Dark founding justice. I want a chapter founded in secret as the lore says the chapters during the 13th were and for them to be created in secret it's only logical that it was for some sort secret mission.

I mean why have a secret founding if your intention is just to let the chapters romp around space like the rest of the space marines.

 

If you're part of a secret founding, why wouldn't you/that stay a secret?

 

As for it making it unique and special, sure in away it is but then isn't that the goal of all IAs to find something that makes it unique and special compared to all the other chapters. What's the difference having a chapter go off on a secret mission beyond space to fight from having a chapter living on a floating city that falls down through a gas giant which leads to a possible civil war within the chapter.

 

Please. It's an ice world. :P

 

More to the point, that's things happening that happen to be unique and special, not the hand of the High Lords reaching out and saying, "You. You are our chosen instrument, who shall be unique and special, and shall do something no one else can." ;)

 

Plus, wouldn't an established chapter be better to deal with such a threat, anyway?

 

 

First off, my mistake. I just remembered a floating city falling through clouds. Might have confused it with Star Wars. :P

 

"You. You are our chosen instrument, who shall be unique and special, and shall do something no one else can."

 

Isn't this a pretty fair definition on space marines in general?

 

Though it a better description for this chapter would be: "You. You are our chosen instrument, who shall be unique and special, and shall do something no one else is allowed know anything about."

 

As for why a chapter created in secret wouldn't want to stay secret that's a fair point.

That's a fair point. However, there is two arguments why not.

The first is that it wouldn't be much of an IA if the whole chapter was to stay secret.

Which is why secondly, it's only the reason that's secret not the chapter's existence.

It's a bit of a cop out I know but I just going claim it's done in the spirit of BL's and GW's writing tradition.

That the founding of the chapter is a bit hush hush too is all down to plausible denialbility. The idea is that the threat, whatever it was, was something the high lords did not want anyone to know about or that they had taken action against it, plus it was deemed very unlikely that any force would actually survive the encounter.

 

So that's actually the basis behind the concept. The chapter was founded in secret for a suicide mission the hob nobs of the imperium didn't want anyone to know about. Except that the chapter just happened to both survive and succeed so then they were reassigned for a new more "normal" space marine mission.

 

That's also the reason an established chapter wouldn't get the job. Imagine the High Lords going to the Ultramarines telling them to gather the whole chapter, abandon all other duties and campaigns and set out on a mission beyond the galaxy from which they would most likely never return from. Fine, the smurfs would probably do it but would the Dark Angels or the Space Wolves?

[Octavulg]

I kind of disagree that it's a singular concept. Knights is one concept, that of noble heroes in shiny armour. Terror is actually two other concept, that of the feeling of intense, mind numbing fear and the use of violence for intimidation and coercion aka. Terrorism.

The idea behind the name is really Knights Terrorists. But with terrorist shortened both to get a more poetic name and not to be too obvious.

 

Terror is a singular concept in that you are talking about one terror, not multiple ones.

 

Rampagers is plural. Knight's Terror is not. It is the Terror of a Knight. Knights Terror wouldn't be singular, but you keep using an apostrophe.

 

Are you telling me that Knights Templar should really be spelled Knights' Templar

 

No. Go reread the two explanations of how apostrophes work you were given.

 

Apostrophes are for denoting possession and contractions. If you aren't trying to do one of those, you don't need them.

 

or that the word Terror can't be used in combination with Knights with out an apostrophe. In the latter case why? Is it because terror is generally a noun?

 

Among other reasons, yes (and terror isn't just generally a noun. It is a noun).

 

Then how come no one argues the same with the Knights Sangreal on the same principle, which literally means Knights Grail?

 

Because Espada's only been calling them that for a few days, and it was more important to get him not naming them after an alcoholic beverage. Sangrealic would do the trick there, in any case.

 

Isn't this a pretty fair definition on space marines in general?

 

Yes and no. Depends on what you compare them to.

 

The first is that it wouldn't be much of an IA if the whole chapter was to stay secret.

 

Indeed. I just wouldn't tell us about the founding. It's always annoyed the hell out of me that the first line in the Exorcists' Armageddon writeup is that they're from the 13th Founding, and included in their writeup (IIRC) was that no one knew anything about the 13th Founding.

 

Just have them show up from somewhere looking kind of tired and grab a planet. Easier. And arguably more secretive.

 

So that's actually the basis behind the concept. The chapter was founded in secret for a suicide mission the hob nobs of the imperium didn't want anyone to know about. Except that the chapter just happened to both survive and succeed so then they were reassigned for a new more "normal" space marine mission.

 

Space Marines aren't for suicide missions. They'll do them, mind you. But if you're expecting one Space Marine chapter to be wiped out, the answer is to add more Space Marine chapters.

 

That's also the reason an established chapter wouldn't get the job. Imagine the High Lords going to the Ultramarines telling them to gather the whole chapter, abandon all other duties and campaigns and set out on a mission beyond the galaxy from which they would most likely never return from. Fine, the smurfs would probably do it but would the Dark Angels or the Space Wolves?

 

Dark Angels...probably not. Space Wolves...might. More to the point, there's probably some fleet-based chapters that would. I'm not sure I'd want to send something untested on such a mission.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Right, I don't get that since it's basically a adjective noun name like 90% of every chapter out there, official and DIY have. Fine I admit that thinking about it, it's more correctly a noun adjective name but the principle is the same.

 

Not just that. It also is a singular concept, rather than a plural group of things.

 

 

I kind of disagree that it's a singular concept. Knights is one concept, that of noble heroes in shiny armour. Terror is actually two other concept, that of the feeling of intense, mind numbing fear and the use of violence for intimidation and coercion aka. Terrorism.

The idea behind the name is really Knights Terrorists. But with terrorist shortened both to get a more poetic name and not to be too obvious.

Just going to quickly nitpick at this. I believe that what Octavulg meant is that a name is a singular concept, because it represents a single person (or place, or organisation, etc) and nothing else. Because a name only represents one thing, it is in the vast majority of cases one thing <_<

[Lord Scytha]

I kind of disagree that it's a singular concept. Knights is one concept, that of noble heroes in shiny armour. Terror is actually two other concept, that of the feeling of intense, mind numbing fear and the use of violence for intimidation and coercion aka. Terrorism.

The idea behind the name is really Knights Terrorists. But with terrorist shortened both to get a more poetic name and not to be too obvious.

 

Terror is a singular concept in that you are talking about one terror, not multiple ones.

 

Rampagers is plural. Knight's Terror is not. It is the Terror of a Knight. Knights Terror wouldn't be singular, but you keep using an apostrophe.

 

 

Hang on, I've been using an apostrophe?!?!?!?!?!?

 

I just searched my original post and not once did I write anything except Knights Terror. Without an apostrophe.

 

The whole apostrophe discussion didn't even start until Dark Apostle Thirst brought it up.

 

So are you telling me that as long as there are no apostrophes there is nothing wrong with Knights Terror?

[Octavulg]

There is nothing wrong regarding the use of apostrophes in Knights Terror.

 

There is something wrong with the fact that terror isn't an adjective.

[Lord Scytha]

There is nothing wrong regarding the use of apostrophes in Knights Terror.

 

There is something wrong with the fact that terror isn't an adjective.

 

Well, neither is Templar and according to both the Oxford and the Merrian-Webster dictionaries the English language doesn't have any problem with the name Knights Templar.

 

So is the problem with the name then only that it doesn't follow the general form of adjective noun pattern of names for SM chapters. But while that pattern for obvious grammatical reasons makes up the majority of names there are plenty of exceptions that instead uses a noun noun pattern. In fact, one of the first founding legions has a noun noun name; the Alpha Legion. As so does the Doom Eagles, Death Spectres, Fire Hawks and Death Knights.

So while noun noun names are a minority they aren't even all that uncommon.

 

Then is the problem again that the pluralized noun (knights) comes first? In which case it can't be for grammatical reasons for the above stated argument.

So again what is the problem?

[Orlunu]

Knights Templar is because "Templar" meant "of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon", which is a :( to say quickly. If the chapter is actually the "Ordo Terrorem" or some such then the marines could be called "Knights Terror", with an individual being a "Knight Terror". This being the pun that I believe you were trying for all along. :) I think that the "Knights Sangreal" are taken to be Knights of the Sangreal Quest or some such. An argument on adjectival contractions, this is getting out of hand.

I think that we should try to steer this conversation towards something more useful. Due to their strong fleet, are these marines fleet-action specialists, boarding parties, fighter pilots etc? I would also agree that no mention of their founding, just them appearing on their new homeworld all chewed up would be a lot cooler, and would annoy fewer people. Some more history for flavour after their appearance would also be nice. Are they up against a long term foe, have all of them adjusted properly to their new job description? Having some struggle ongoing for the chapter makes fluff a lot easier, and I am a strong advocate of writing reams and reams of fluff to get into your chapter and make them special. *eyes mist over*

[Octavulg]

Well, neither is Templar and according to both the Oxford and the Merrian-Webster dictionaries the English language doesn't have any problem with the name Knights Templar.

 

In this case, I believe the word was originally an adjective, which became a noun through assocation with the Knights Templar (who got abbreviated to "Templars"). Same deal with Hospitallers.

 

So is the problem with the name then only that it doesn't follow the general form of adjective noun pattern of names for SM chapters. But while that pattern for obvious grammatical reasons makes up the majority of names there are plenty of exceptions that instead uses a noun noun pattern. In fact, one of the first founding legions has a noun noun name; the Alpha Legion. As so does the Doom Eagles, Death Spectres, Fire Hawks and Death Knights.

So while noun noun names are a minority they aren't even all that uncommon.

 

Except those are still adjectives. English lets you use nouns as adjectives if you put them before another noun (for example: Gold Coast, death knell, castle wall, or chimney pot (or in compound words like firefighter, firefly, firebug, fireplace, kingpin, or kingfisher). This is the convention. If you wrote Coast Gold, people would think you were talking about gold from the coast. Write knell death, and people will think you're talking about a death that was well known (or something). Write wall castle, and people will think you mean a castle with walls.

 

So if you write Knights Terror, you're talking about something that's a terror to knights. If you write Knights Terrible (or Terror Knights), you're not.

 

Then is the problem again that the pluralized noun (knights) comes first? In which case it can't be for grammatical reasons for the above stated argument.

So again what is the problem?

[Lord Scytha]

Okay, now that's clear at least.

 

So then Knights Terroris should work since that's the Latin adjective of terror? (I think it is, since the translation says it means "of terror". Sounds adjectivish to me.)

 

I'm not sure that Terrorem is an adjective, think it's a noun. Besides, it sounds too much as Theorem for people not to confuse them.

Terror Knights lose the duality aspect.

Knights Terrible loses the terror aspect since it makes it sound like they are just awesome knights (or for those more used to the modern interpretation, just suck.) Besides, it makes it sound like they are French and as fan of Monty Python's Holy Grail as I am; I refuse to have French knights. ;)

 

As for the rest of the comments that doesn't concern the name.

I'm not actually going to mention the founding, or that they were sent outside the galaxy on a extremely hard and dangerous crusade (Octavulg you're right about the suicide mission. While I still think that occasionally the hob nobs on terra send out whole chapters on such missions simply because it's a grim, dark future, it isn't really necessary in this case.) or that they were created to combat a threat foretold by the Emperor himself. (Actually, that last part is really just there to hopefully give those who figure it out a HOLY CRAP moment.)

 

Yes, that's still going to be part of their back story and yes it will be in the text. But a reader will have to work for it to figure it out. For example, that the chapter was part of the 13th founding will only be clear to a reader who knows the time line of the Imperium (or looks it up.)

The extra large fleet with strange additions isn't there because the chapter specializes in ship actions but so that a reader who know the normal fleet size of a codex chapter will go; "How come a codex chapter has such an over sized and strange fleet?"

 

 

 

The chapter will very much be part of the secrecy of the 13th founding so where they come from or what they did will still be a secret even in the IA.

On a straight read through it will just sound like a generic codex chapter with a Jekyll and Hyde theme.

Only for those smart enough and with enough knowledge of the fluff will it be possible to get an inkling of the secret. (At least that's the thought. And probably the thing I'll need the most help with.)

 

But I can't get any useful help if I'm not open with the secrets here.

Or as the sub title says; spoiler alert.

[Orlunu]

Knights Terroris is fine ^_^

Also, agreed on the French knights, or smurfs as they are know around here.

 

Will it be very fleet action based, Caestus rams, TDA etc.? I am finding myself becoming obsessed with those rams.

[Lord Scytha]

Knights Terroris is fine :)

Also, agreed on the French knights, or smurfs as they are know around here.

 

Will it be very fleet action based, Caestus rams, TDA etc.? I am finding myself becoming obsessed with those rams.

 

actually it will be pure codex goodies with a bit of a villain thrown in for good measure...

[Lord Scytha]

Right, since the name controversy seems to have died down I've started writing a new draft. It is a complete new rewrite.

 

I paid a little more attention to spelling and grammar this time since unless something major pops up in the critic this will probably form the basis for all other drafts.

 

Also since GW totally mucked up the time line for the universe I'm not sure exactly which millenia the 13th founding is supposed to be in right now. I know there was a thread with a new time line here somewhere (I know because I wrote in it just before I went on a vacation) but I can't find it. So that date is just a place holder right now.

 

Here is the first section.

 

Origins of the chapter.

 

 

The oldest record concerning a chapter with the name Knights Terroris exists in an old decayed data stack on the forgeworld Argentum Secundus. A paragraph dating from early MXXX tells of the forge equipping a chapter by the name Knights Terroris for a crusade against an invader, who’s coming had been foretold millennia past during the last days of the unification wars. The paragraph contains an order to paint the equipment in the silver and blue heraldry of the chapter.

 

The next existing record about a chapter with that name stems from the early M40 and tells how the current Knights Terroris chapter suddenly appears worn and battered in the Tarsus system bearing a missive from the High Lords granting them the system as their own. The missive, still on display in a place of honour in the Chapter’s fortress monastery, states that the Knights Terroris was granted the system upon their return to the Imperium after a successfully completed crusade against an unnamed enemy. It charged the chapter with the defence of the vital Cibius sector and the strategically important Tarsus Nexus, a confluence of stable warp corridors.

 

When the chapter arrived at their new demesne they did so abord a severely battle damaged fleet consisting of three battle barges, a dozen strike cruisers and score rapid response vessels. It was accompanied by a colossal forge ship , two Ark Mechanicus ships and several Magos Explorator ships, along with numerous rouge trader vessels. The ships were barely holding together and so repaired that it was impossible to say were one repair started and another one ended. It was not only the ship themselves that was worn down as none of the ships managed to have any more than a skeleton crew aboard.

 

The chapter itself was not in any better shape consisting of only two badly depleted battle companies and an ad hoc reserve company consisting of the surviving Marines from the other companies. However, through some fortuitous coincident the chapter’s scout company was at full strength.

 

In spite of their few numbers the chapter settled into the Tarsus system and started making it their own with a will and a frenzy that made the results belied their lack of Astartes.

Now started a time of construction and rebuilding that would last almost a millennia as the Knights Terroris recouped their numbers and fortified their new home. Though within a year of settling in the Tarsus system and the Cibius sector the Knights resumed combat operations.

 

Since then they have been a stabilizing influence on the sector and a bulwark against the enemies out to cause the Imperium harm.

 

[Orlunu]

TBH with the way the Imperium treats its data it would probably be more fluffy to get the date wrong by a good few centuries anyway, so don't sweat it. I'm not going to be pedantic about grammar like last time, that road ends up with me turning into a little bloodletter. :o If you mind about the grammar I will take your final copy when it comes up, correct it and re-post it. Looks good so far, does this mean that this thread will start seeing frequent activity again?