Stonedog Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 So, my second favorite chapter has always been the Space Wolves...with the new allies rule I may be able to finally have a few of.the Sons of Russ in my force My question is this: Do they have anything that we are sorely lacking and if so, what? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Apparantly they have better tacticals. *shrugs* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 A few things spring to mind Rune priests: Their heretic oogy-boogy priests have runic weapons which appart from Eldar Runes of warding and Tyranid Shadow in the warp are about the only ways left in the game to try and shut down/impair enemy's attempts to use buff psychic powers on their own units, and work ontop of deny the witch rolls when they target you (3d6 test with increaced chance of perils). Grey Hunters: They are in many senses better than tactical marines in that they get counter attack, +1a from BP & CCW and 2 special weapons a squad all for 1pt less than a tactical. However they have no heavy weapon (so so I'd often prefer the 2nd special weapon myself) and more importantly no sgt. Sure they can add a wolfguard but thats extra expense and also makes you loose that 2nd special if you want to go in a rhino. Grey hunters are fantastic in a wolf army, they fit the steady advance on foot with withering fire (stalking) with a lunge for the throat at the last moment (pounce!). This could play nicely if you want an anvil to a drop pod/jump pack hammer I suppose. Long fangs: Can split fire and take 1 more heavy weapon than our devs. nice idea if you are builing a propper Wolf allies detatchment rather than a token unit or two. Probably not motivation enough by themslelves but worth a look if you create the option for yourself. Thunderwolf deathstars: Fast, powerfull, pretty reliable charge with new cavalry rules, very very hard to kill with their toughness and multiple wounds combined with "look out sir!". And.......there was something else......................something important...........oh yeh It costs almost as much as a titan legion in pts ;). Regardless we dont have any units quite like the big girly wolf riders so possibly worth a look if you want something that will trash b00b players into next week, or just have a fetish for big (entirely heterosexual) wolves. (I'm joking I really like the thunderwolves both models and concept/fluff) Lone Wolves: Super usefull/annoying in any army, BA would be no exception :tu:. Take one or two and they will pop up and some point mid battle and throw a spanner in the works for the enemy. Thats the stuff that leaps to mind right now, I'm sure there are other things.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 That's actually really funny.. I wrote about it today on my blog: http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-unholy-union.html I will be taking Grey Hunters in Rhinos for the meat of my army, but it'll be supported by a BA Libby, SP, 10x ASM unit and a Stormraven for AA purposes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israfel Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 It's probably not competitive at all but having Dante + Logan with Sanguinary guard and wolf guard as troops really tickles me :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Our psychic defense is excellent, and Grey Hunters are a good rapid-strike element if deployed via drop pod. If only they could take a locator beacon I would definitely advise them being in most descent of angels lists as a solid beach-head maker. Overall though Id say that blood angels already have a plethora of options- theres very little youd need out of our book to round out a force. While a Wolf Priest with saga of the hunter accompanying some grey hunters and a pack of wolf scouts would make a solid outflanking force it clocks in around 450points, and Im just not sure its worth it since you can no longer assault out of outflank like that.... Still, overall, Grey Hunters are one of the best scoring units in the game- if youd like two of them to hold your midground objectives it wont hurt, but BA lists just seem to synergize on different levels... A possible thought, though often overlooked in the last edition is one of our special characters- Canis Wolfborn. Fenrisian wolves are obscenely cheap cannon fodder and thunerwolf cavalry have only gotten stronger in the current edition due to their greater tactical mobility. Use him as a spearhead unit with the wolves around to keep him alive and I think youll find the unit effective for its points cost. As a space wolf player I intend to include, on occaision, some blood angels as 13nth co backup- a Priest leading 15 death company as wolfpriest+wulfen, with perhaps an extra typhoon in the FA slot, so I dont have to squadron them in larger games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Rune Preist in runic armour with a jump pack leave the GH troop choice somewhere out of the way on an objective. As mentioned the RP with chooser of the slain and a couple of nasty powers will really attract some attention. That rune priest is an interesting ally only available to brothers in arms BA are one of them. I will definitely use a counts as RP when faced with GK. Interestingly GK are already upset that they cant take a runepreist, as grudging allies SW RPs block GK powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mysteriousmaskedmystery Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Rune priests: Their heretic oogy-boogy priests have runic weapons which appart from Eldar Runes of warding and Tyranid Shadow in the warp are about the only ways left in the game to try and shut down/impair enemy's attempts to use buff psychic powers on their own units, and work ontop of deny the witch rolls when they target you (3d6 test with increaced chance of perils). when did runic weapons become anything like SitW or RoW? more on topic, i don't know if there's that much of an advantage to adding wolves, beyond the priest himself. maybe a pair of priests and a squad of grey hunters for support, and maybe a squad of long fangs if you want them, but i wouldn't add much more than that. none of your allies will benefit from your FNP or FC, but if they are just sitting on an isolated objective in the rear that's not too much of a down side. some long fangs with a pretty much bare bones hunter squad to support them sounds nice, especially when you add one or two RP with runic weapons and maybe jaws or divination in. what sort of BA army are you thinking of adding to? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 I play a heavy assault army. Two razorbacks (only as unit delivery systems and a mobile armor killer until it gets blown up and then its cover) loaded to grab objectives. 20 Jump Assault that deepstrike in later to support objectives on bring the pain to enemy units and HQ. Baal Preds and LRC....Mephiston as the HQ. That is the core....trying to fill out the shooters and looters..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Rune priests: Their heretic oogy-boogy priests have runic weapons which appart from Eldar Runes of warding and Tyranid Shadow in the warp are about the only ways left in the game to try and shut down/impair enemy's attempts to use buff psychic powers on their own units, and work ontop of deny the witch rolls when they target you (3d6 test with increaced chance of perils). when did runic weapons become anything like SitW or RoW? When those three abilities became the only way you can shut down ANY kind of psychic power, as opposed to only psychic powers that affect the enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Rune priests: Their heretic oogy-boogy priests have runic weapons which appart from Eldar Runes of warding and Tyranid Shadow in the warp are about the only ways left in the game to try and shut down/impair enemy's attempts to use buff psychic powers on their own units, and work ontop of deny the witch rolls when they target you (3d6 test with increaced chance of perils). when did runic weapons become anything like SitW or RoW? When those three abilities became the only way you can shut down ANY kind of psychic power, as opposed to only psychic powers that affect the enemy. Psychic defense is absolutely premium now. I recently played against Codex Marines, and the opposing Epistolary rolled a 5 and 6 on the telepathy table. Hallucinate is simply vicious... and 5+ Deny the Witch (Meph's PsyHood nearby) wasn't nearly enough to stop it from wreaking havoc on my forces. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the RunePriest gets a 4+ Runeweapon chance to block, a 5+ Deny the Witch IFF his Unit is targeted, and then can take a 5pt Wolf Talisman for yet another additional 5+ chance to block a power IFF his Unit is targeted. So if you need an important Unit to be as close to invulnerable to Maledictions and Witchfire as possible, take a RunePriest with Wolf Talisman. Then your opponent only has a 20% chance of successfully cursing or psychic-shooting them (11/12 chance to cast on Ld10, 3/6 chance to avoid Rune weapon, 4/6 chance to avoid Deny the Witch, 4/6 chance to avoid Wolf Talisman) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Memories Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Im personally finding it tough to find an army that matches well as an ally for Blood Angels. The best I've come up with is a codex biker hybrid. I don't think by any means that space wolves are weak, I simply think their codex has specific advantages that don't necessarily sync up as well as people might think with a Blood Angels codex. Aside from psychic defense I don't see a clear advantage anywhere from playing Blood Angels and allying with wolves. While TWC and long fangs, etc are very good, the changes in the game and thus the changes in armies people are running is again changing what the most "effective" options are. I agree gray hunters are fantastic, but I have to say i've been impressed with the abilities of my combat squaded tactical squads. Having a heavy weapon and special weapon in those rhinos makes a pretty big difference. Predators also have gained a lot of ability. Ran predators against guard earlier and with some good terrain placement and some cover saves I racked up 6-7 kill points between the predators alone and only lost 1 kill point. While they aren't a denial unit I've found not being able to silence them with glances combined with the hull point system actually gave them a significant anti-armor boost. TWC are great in close combat, but they don't match up with units like a stormshield/term armor lib with 5 th assault terminators in close combat, and if they do match up its a push, no real advantage there. TWC don't need a transport but you pay the extra price for one via the price of model. If you don't take a wolf lord, this combat advantage is clearly in favor of the terminators. Wolf scouts got a significant nerf, and while long gray hunters are better than tactical marines, they lack in some areas tactical marines don't, and they can no longer assault out of a rhino they turn they disembark or even after it's destroyed, so unless it's counter charging they don't really have a major advantage. The only thing going after gray hunters in close combat anyways would be an assault-type unit. While they will probably be a bit tougher than tactical marines, hunters aren't going to stand up as much more than a speed bump to a dedicated assault unit. If anything I feel like Blood Angels are a better ally to Space Wolves than the other way around. The option to hand pick elite Blood Angel combat units that wolves lack as well as a flier is a major advantage. The downside to this is that you lose some of the synergy that you picked up running a space wolves list and again the difference between some units is a push anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mysteriousmaskedmystery Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Rune priests: Their heretic oogy-boogy priests have runic weapons which appart from Eldar Runes of warding and Tyranid Shadow in the warp are about the only ways left in the game to try and shut down/impair enemy's attempts to use buff psychic powers on their own units, and work ontop of deny the witch rolls when they target you (3d6 test with increaced chance of perils). when did runic weapons become anything like SitW or RoW? When those three abilities became the only way you can shut down ANY kind of psychic power, as opposed to only psychic powers that affect the enemy. Psychic defense is absolutely premium now. I recently played against Codex Marines, and the opposing Epistolary rolled a 5 and 6 on the telepathy table. Hallucinate is simply vicious... and 5+ Deny the Witch (Meph's PsyHood nearby) wasn't nearly enough to stop it from wreaking havoc on my forces. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the RunePriest gets a 4+ Runeweapon chance to block, a 5+ Deny the Witch IFF his Unit is targeted, and then can take a 5pt Wolf Talisman for yet another additional 5+ chance to block a power IFF his Unit is targeted. So if you need an important Unit to be as close to invulnerable to Maledictions and Witchfire as possible, take a RunePriest with Wolf Talisman. Then your opponent only has a 20% chance of successfully cursing or psychic-shooting them (11/12 chance to cast on Ld10, 3/6 chance to avoid Rune weapon, 4/6 chance to avoid Deny the Witch, 4/6 chance to avoid Wolf Talisman) yes, i understood runic weapons to still work as they were printed in the codex, but the post i originally quoted made it seem as though runic weapons now functioned like shadow in the warp. but, i believe you are right about the rune priest, that is the only downside to not having a psychic hood, having to be in the unit to get the effect, still, any character in a SW army can take the WTT, and that's on top of their +6 deny the witch, is it not? or does the WTT simply boost their DtW roll? either way, the rune priest is really the way to go if you're thinking of SW allies. with your list, if you want something to keep up with your JP/Mech list, you could add hunters in rhino/bunkers, they won't be priority targets next to razors, and they don't need to assault out of them, since they have CA, just remember their lack of FNP, which will make a difference. and you might throw some long fangs in if you still have the points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3139964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 GW really need to go back through the SW FAQ and actually do it properly. Rune Weapons need to function the same way that Psychic Hoods do now. WTT needs to boost the DtW save rather than provide an additional save. Until they do I'd be tempted by a Rune Priest and 5 Grey Hunters in a Razorback as cheap allies that can chuck out some nice firepower, have excellent psychic defense and JotWW. Or I would be if I didn't hate the Space Wolves. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3140079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Rune Priest with Chooser of the Slain, Wolf Tail Talisman and Runic Armour 135pts 10 Grey Hunters with 2 plasmaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Power Axe, Wolf Standard and droppod 235 Lone Wolf in TDA with Wolf Claw, Chainfist and 2 Fenrisian Wolves 105 pts 6 Long Fangs with 5 Missile Launchers 140 pts or 5 Heavy Bolters for 115 pts seem like the best additions I'd stay away from runepriests in razorbacks, due to a lack of firing holes, so JotWW can't be used you could also go for Njal; his runic weapon has an even better chance of blocking enemy psychic powers, and his lord of the tempest ability hampers the enemy a great deal Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3140094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Rune priests: Their heretic oogy-boogy priests have runic weapons which appart from Eldar Runes of warding and Tyranid Shadow in the warp are about the only ways left in the game to try and shut down/impair enemy's attempts to use buff psychic powers on their own units, and work ontop of deny the witch rolls when they target you (3d6 test with increaced chance of perils). when did runic weapons become anything like SitW or RoW? When those three abilities became the only way you can shut down ANY kind of psychic power, as opposed to only psychic powers that affect the enemy. Psychic defense is absolutely premium now. I recently played against Codex Marines, and the opposing Epistolary rolled a 5 and 6 on the telepathy table. Hallucinate is simply vicious... and 5+ Deny the Witch (Meph's PsyHood nearby) wasn't nearly enough to stop it from wreaking havoc on my forces. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the RunePriest gets a 4+ Runeweapon chance to block, a 5+ Deny the Witch IFF his Unit is targeted, and then can take a 5pt Wolf Talisman for yet another additional 5+ chance to block a power IFF his Unit is targeted. So if you need an important Unit to be as close to invulnerable to Maledictions and Witchfire as possible, take a RunePriest with Wolf Talisman. Then your opponent only has a 20% chance of successfully cursing or psychic-shooting them (11/12 chance to cast on Ld10, 3/6 chance to avoid Rune weapon, 4/6 chance to avoid Deny the Witch, 4/6 chance to avoid Wolf Talisman) You are correct about the denial ability of the wolves! Remember Mephy will have a 4+ DTW the vast majority of the time though ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3140542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Though I haven't used them, Long Fangs immediately spring to mind as backup for a largely Jump Pack based army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3140551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Though I haven't used them, Long Fangs immediately spring to mind as backup for a largely Jump Pack based army. I agree. Long fangs seem like a better choice than Devs overall. If I brought in wolves, I'd be most interested in Long Fangs, Grey Hunters and Rune Priests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3140687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 You are correct about the denial ability of the wolves! Remember Mephy will have a 4+ DTW the vast majority of the time though ! Wait how does Meph have 4+ Deny the Witch? The BRB says Deny the Witch is 6+, and if you have lower or equal Leadership Psyker present then you have +1 to the roll (making 5+). Where does 4+ come from? What psykers are Ld9? Cuz Meph only gets 4+ DTW against Ld9 unless I'm sorely mistaken....... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3140968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonet40k Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Wait how does Meph have 4+ Deny the Witch? The BRB says Deny the Witch is 6+, and if you have lower or equal Leadership Psyker present then you have +1 to the roll (making 5+). Where does 4+ come from? What psykers are Ld9? Cuz Meph only gets 4+ DTW against Ld9 unless I'm sorely mistaken....... It goes off of Mastery Level, not Leadership, so Mephy will get 4+ against anyone who isn't Mastery Level 3 as well (Pg. 568, the 2 bullet points). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3140983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 OK....I can see a rune priest ...but why wouldn't we use our own Devastator squads as back up? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3141036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Wait how does Meph have 4+ Deny the Witch? The BRB says Deny the Witch is 6+, and if you have lower or equal Leadership Psyker present then you have +1 to the roll (making 5+). Where does 4+ come from? What psykers are Ld9? Cuz Meph only gets 4+ DTW against Ld9 unless I'm sorely mistaken....... It goes off of Mastery Level, not Leadership, so Mephy will get 4+ against anyone who isn't Mastery Level 3 as well (Pg. 568, the 2 bullet points). AHA! Ok sweet man there are so many subconscious 'edits' my brain is making b/c of old 5th ed. I thought that it worked off Leadership, something like the old psychic hoods used to work. So Mastery level huh? Great to know, won't forget it now lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3141115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 OK....I can see a rune priest ...but why wouldn't we use our own Devastator squads as back up? Ability to split fire and take more than 4 heavy weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3141141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Long Fangs are also 3pts cheaper per body than BA Devastators and the Squad Leader can take a Special Weapon, which a Devastator Sergeant can't do. Only real disadvantage is that LFs don't have a Signum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3141224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadron Ka'sel Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Long Fangs are also 3pts cheaper per body than BA Devastators and the Squad Leader can take a Special Weapon, which a Devastator Sergeant can't do. Only real disadvantage is that LFs don't have a Signum. I think the lose of signum is worth it though for what you get in return. Just a shame they can't have one of our lovely turbo charged RB. Personally im leaning towards wolves myself but this is largly due to a fluff reason with my BA Successors. Particularly the Lonewolf. What im curious about is that no one seems to have mentioned wolfguard, or have i missed this? It seems to me that although they can end up being expensive they wouldnt be a bad choice as an allied unit. Or is there a specific reason not to take them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258017-our-brothers-the-sons-of-russ/#findComment-3141503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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