Chapter Theme Idea

[Epistolary Theodoric]

Hey so i'm working on my first DIY chapter and have a theme that might be cool. I was thinking a chapter based on the Army of the Potomac from the American civil war. (aka Union)

alternately, a Confederate style army would be cool as well, but Confederate troops were mostly irregulars and did not have set uniforms or weaponry. Anyway, I would like some commentary on the idea. Cool? lame? Thanks.

[Kierdale]

Not knowing my :D hole from my elbow when it comes to the American civil war, I looked up the army on Wikipedia. What aspects of the army are you thinking of drawing inspiration from? I see a lot of big beards, big hats and shiny brass buttons in the photos...

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Kierdale makes the important point; what exactly are you going to use thematically to show the tie between the Chapter and that era? "The Union Army" is far too broad a subject, for me, so that you'd need specific and somewhat subtle references and things to tie the two together.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Unfortunately, it's not a good match to Space Marines period. The Union Army's main two points of superiority over the Confederates were numbers and artillery. Their commanders in the early years of the war were inept or entirely too cautious on the battlefield; Sherman and Grant were both fearless and dogged generals, but neither one was ever graced with the kind of strategic subtelty that identified the Confederate commanders.

 

Obviously, Space Marines can't use "numbers" as a viable theme since there are hard limits to the number of Marines a Chapter can have. And "hit hard and don't stop hitting til their all dead" is kind of a general Space Marine tactical concept, so that as a theme doesn't really work well either. So unless you're going for dark blue armor, kepis, and awesome facial hair (look up General Ambrose Burnside; that man knew how to grow a beard!), I also fail to see what direction your theme is intended to go in.

[Overlord-Rakszan]

In this case it could accualy work very well... ...if your Imperial Guard.

I highly suggest that if your life goal is to make some sort of Civil War army based in the 41st Milenium then ude Imperial Guard.

Space Marines are just not that type of organisation used in the late 1800's.

[ChaptermasterDemon7]

As what has been stated, It will be extremely difficult to use something from the Civil War as a theme to a Space Marine Chapter, unless your going to use the theme of the Unions hatred of slavery then you could use that due to the Chaos Space Marines take slaves. But, that is still going to be very difficul to pull off. Its better to pick a theme way before the Civil IMHO.

[Gulag]

I think a good idea for a Union Army based force of Space Marines would be to identify a particular unit or formation in the Union Army to emulate broadly.

 

Like say the Iron Brigade of the West (wiki linky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Brigade )

 

Particularly this:

 

Noted for its strong discipline, its unique uniform appearance, and its tenacious fighting ability

 

I myself have an idea related to an illustrious Army unit based here in my home state for a DIY chapter, should I ever get around to hammering it out.

[DarkLiege]

Going off of what Gulag has said, you could also pick a famous general in the civil war and go on from there.

 

For Ex. General Sherman who uses the scorched earth tactic to win. he also thought the war, like General Grant, should be a war of conquest. Maybe you can work your chapter around this idea however this is your DIY so you have the final say in things.

 

Hope this helps. :D

[Gulag]

uses the scorched earth tactic to win.

 

 

Burn all of the things.

[RoguePanda]

Just a thought in passing - if you get chance you might want to look at the way the forgeworld books handle the Tyrants Legion in the Badab war books - this set up I think had astartes officers and elites, with more mundane troops as their primary force. Perhaps there is something there you can use or adapt? Good lcuk

[DarkLiege]

uses the scorched earth tactic to win.

 

 

Burn all of the things.

 

Yea, I was thinking more to the line of starting the attack with bombardments and cleaning the rest up with the troops like of tactics. So in a sense, similar tactics to that of the Fire Lords Chapter. However the problem I see with doing this, is that the chapter was to thin itself out into a complete fleet-based chapter.

 

A question if I may, What kind of chapter will it be? Fleet-Based? Homeworld? Star- Fortress?

 

Hopes this helps you further your ideas of what you want the chapter to be like. :D Just my two cents. :P

[Wade Garrett]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's very possible the Army of the Potomac as inspiration for a Space Marine force.

I'm picturing a Chapter with its honor in tatters, cursed with a string of failed Chapter Masters and officers....one too conservative and cautious (McClellan) one got himself promoted by playing politics and then performed abysmally on the battlefield (Joe Hooker), and one who was the God's own gift to the enemy (Ambrose Burnside. Just....Ambrose Burnside. Widely considered to be the worst American commander in our history. Even beating out Custer and Benedict Arnold).

 

And the current Chapter Master. A grim, somewhat seedy figure with a disreputable past, but who has the cold gleam in his eyes of a man who has just decided to drive his head through a brick wall (Grant, of course.) For some reason I'm imagining him as heavily bionic (just because the thought of a cyborg Ulysses S. Grant amuses me greatly who is intent on battlefield victories no matter what the butcher's bill is. For fluffy stuff, you might want to have a Meade figure as the First Captain or Company champion, he could have been in command of most of the Chapter's forces on the eve of a great victory (Gettysburg) but then been passed over for overall command, so there's a bit of tension between him and the Chapter Master.

 

As for the look...like the man said, dark blue armor and facial hair so glorious it would make a Space Wolf weep. I'd make the a Dorn successor chapter, just because so many of Grant's battles took place in trench fighting/siege situations (Vicksburg) but have them closer to loyalist Iron Warriors than the Fists (Or, perhaps much of the Chapter IS down with the whole noble scions of Rogal Dorn thing, and it's the new Chapter Master who has the more ruthless, Perturabo style to him. The Battle Brothers may not like it, but he's winning battles, and the counts with the Ad Mech and the High Lords of Terra.)

 

This is definitely workable.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Army of the West may be a better place than the laughably inept Army of the Potomac. Grant got alot done against what was pretty much and insurgency until Sherman took over and drove the nails in the coffin.

 

Any particular reason you picked the side that translates less into 40k than the side filled with opportunities to show strategic and tactical brilliance in the face of overwhelming odds?

[Gulag]

The Army of the West may be a better place than the laughably inept Army of the Potomac. Grant got alot done against what was pretty much and insurgency until Sherman took over and drove the nails in the coffin.

 

Any particular reason you picked the side that translates less into 40k than the side filled with opportunities to show strategic and tactical brilliance in the face of overwhelming odds?

 

They translate just fine. If the side you're referring to had a whole lot of either of those, they'd have not been thrashed and lost the war.

 

And it wasn't an insurgency, especially in the East - the Confederacy formed and fought with a regular army for the vast majority of its battles. The Union didn't even enjoy the requisite numerical superiority one normally requires to invade a country, the 2 invaders to every defender, until late in the war. That meant they were facing Confederate armies on more or less equal terms while invading a hostile territory and still winning the overall war. The Union developed and executed a coordinated all-fronts strategy to beat the Confederacy and the Confederacy had a hard time developing single-theater strategy and routinely overestimated the ability of their own soldiers and artillery when facing Union forces, believing that fighting spirit made up for men and firepower.

 

I'll take a Union inspired Astartes force all day long.

[Marshal Rohr]

Then you lack a basic understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of each side during the American Civil War. The north won through their willingness to ignore casualties, out produce, and destroy civilian infrastructure and steal anything of value. That seems alot more like an Imperial Guard Army.

 

The South had genius commanders like Stuart, Jackson, and Forrest who were famous for using rapid movement with less men to disrupt Northern plans. The Union Army is not some romantic, banner waving Force of Justice. It was a gaggle of conscripts led by incompetents who for the most part were physically smaller and unskilled at basic survival instincts. It wasn't until the Midwesterners began to arrive in large numbers that a Union soldier could survive on his own in the wilderness. It wasn't until the big two generals took over that the Union could maintain a decent and cohesive battle plan.

 

Space marines are about doing more with less and that was the entire name of the game for the south.

 

 

 

Edit: Yes.... There was a large 'insurgency' in the west. Kansas is particularly famous for it. They are highly romanticized, they made lots of movies about them. Josie Wales. Ride with the Devil. Etc.

[Gulag]

Then you lack a basic understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of each side during the American Civil War. The north won through their willingness to ignore casualties, out produce, and destroy civilian infrastructure and steal anything of value. That seems alot more like an Imperial Guard Army.

 

The South had genius commanders like Stuart, Jackson, and Forrest who were famous for using rapid movement with less men to disrupt Northern plans. The Union Army is not some romantic, banner waving Force of Justice. It was a gaggle of conscripts led by incompetents who for the most part were physically smaller and unskilled at basic survival instincts. It wasn't until the Midwesterners began to arrive in large numbers that a Union soldier could survive on his own in the wilderness. It wasn't until the big two generals took over that the Union could maintain a decent and cohesive battle plan.

 

Space marines are about doing more with less and that was the entire name of the game for the south.

 

 

 

Edit: Yes.... There was a large 'insurgency' in the west. Kansas is particularly famous for it. They are highly romanticized, they made lots of movies about them. Josie Wales. Ride with the Devil. Etc.

 

Not gonna argue with you about this on a forum about 40k. My two history degrees and self-respect forbid it. Keep on with what you want to believe - a Union-themed SM chapter is doable and reasonable. If you dislike it, go do a CSA one.

[Wade Garrett]

M2C:

 

When you compare the Army of the West to the Army of the Potomac, you have to keep one thing in mind: The Army of the West was never up against the A-listers. They never had to deal with Lee, Jackson, Longstreet, Jeb Stuart, etc. Although as a point in their favor, Grant did make his name in the West before heading to Virginia to finish the war.

 

Gulag:

I don't know if I'd be quite as dismissive of the Confederate war effort as you seem to be. One of the deciding factors in the far was that the Union could recover from serious defeats (Bull Run, Chancellorsville, Fredericksburg) while the Confederates lacked the same capability, when they suffered setbacks at, say, Gettysburg, it was was a crippling factor to the war effort. I like to use the metaphor of a bullfighter and a bull...the bullfighter has to get it perfect every time. The bull just needs to get it perfect once.

 

Also, the Army of the Potomac and most Civil War armies in general did not start using conscripts and bounty men until the end of the war. Most of the fighting on both sides was done by volunteers. And I don't know if I'd call the Confederate guerillas "romantic figures", Moseby maybe, but not William Qunatrill or Bloody Bill Anderson.

 

And yes, this has :D all to do with W40K, but if either of you want to discuss it more hit me up with a PM.