Gav Thorpe - Deliverance Lost (Spoilers)

[Fintan]

Hey guys, it´s been a while!

 

I recently re-read all the Horus Heresy books up until now, let´s face it, who hasn´t, but Deliverance Lost stood out like a sore thumb to me. Am I the only one that thinks that Gav Thorpes representation of Corax, the relationship between primarchs and their legion and indeed the Raven Guards personalities were a bit...off?

 

"Be nice, they´re only doing their job" From Corax to Commander Branne. Be nice, what is this, my little pony?

 

Corax repeatedly has his commanders questioning his orders, people generally answering him back and he doesn´t seem to give a damn.

 

That and the Ravenguard all speak like members of a regular army unit from Britain.

 

Am I being too harsh here, or did anyone else notice this?

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Nope, I have massive issue with the way Thorpe portrayed a Primarch; the emotive dealings, tears of great loss of troops from a supremely genetically engineered commander and even the way he portrayed Alpharius (trying to be cryptic due to spoilers).

 

When you compare it to the way A D-B or McNeill has portrayed other Primarchs, it's feeble. I know I have issue at Thorpe for his work on the last Chaos codex (what chaos players don't?!) and at Games Day last year, just seeing him made my blood boil. I don't claim to understand him, his thought process or the way he approaches the writing of either novels or rules. On both, he doesn't seem able to put context within the wider game or universe/fluff.

 

He's amazing, and I don't mean in a good way!

[Qarassen]

I don´t agree, regarding the fluff in 40k, corax was "damned" at Istvann V, that place made his mind ""#%/%"/%¤", and i think that´s why he appears so "childlike" and does not mind the legions complains. My opinion is that Deliverance Lost is one of the better ones.

 

But ok, he is not the best, like A-D-B and McNeill, but way better then say Abnett. You can se my topics and se my opinions regarding that.

[Dam13n]

I too found it a difficult read. Tried three or four times to start with the paperback

but could only get a couple of pages in before I got really bored. My .epub on the

iPhone however (thanks to bookmarking primarily) allowed me to drag myself

through it.

 

Now I'm an Alpha Legion fanboy (and they will be my next chaos army come the new

codex) but Gav's representation of them left me cold.

The fact that the infiltrating

"Alpharius" is never called by his adopted name by anyone in the whole book was

pretty lame. Add into that the obvious twist towards the end with the two "Raven

Guard" commanders

(and the previously mentioned points by Fintan and Shamrock),

and what we have is a poorly concieved plot delivered badly.

 

I know a few people who like Gav for Angels of Darkness and the Eldar books he's done.

But it does seem that the moment he gets away from those two armies he epic-fails on

a massive level.

 

Personally I think he should've stuck with being a White Dwarfer and not got ambitions

above what his mediocre talent could live up to, but that's just my opinion.

 

Laterz...

 

Edit: added spoiler tags

[Fintan]

Relieved it´s not just me!

 

It was really brought into contrast with the teaser for a Legion of the Damned book at the back of Deliverance Lost, just the sheer difference in writing ability was staggering.

 

Fortunately at least it was a minor blip on really a very good series of books. :)

[Qarassen]

Ok, i have little knowledge regarding the Alpha Legion, but i have to say that Gav portrayed Alpha bewtter then Abnett in "Legion".

[Fintan]

Ok, i have little knowledge regarding the Alpha Legion, but i have to say that Gav portrayed Alpha bewtter then Abnett in "Legion".

 

Disagree.

 

In Deliverance Lost Thorpe made all the Space Marines out to be effectively Imperial Guardsmen in power armour. Indecisive, compromising, emotional. Alpharious (primarch) stood before Horus and got talked down to by Addadon and Erebus like he was a commander being disciplined, he´s a Primarch for crying out loud.

[pingo]

at Games Day last year, just seeing him made my blood boil.

That seems ... extreme ... and inapproprioate ...

 

I hope for your own sake that was hyperbole!

 

I enjoyed Deliverance Lost personally. I had no issue with Thorpe's portayal of anyone in the book.

 

**HH SERIES SPOILERS**

 

To me, Corax came across as someone all too aware of his status as a demi-god, but not so far removed from humanity that he is arrogant about it.

 

After all, it was ordinary humans who protected him when he was an infant, and ordinary humans who played vital roles in liberating Deliverance.

 

The commanders who questioned his orders were among those who were with Corax from the start. I see no reason why he would not give them respect enough to voice their opinion. Corax just isn't about unquestioning loyalty. However, he is perfectly capable of asserting authority: he had no qalms about considering replacing Branne and Agapito if he felt their quarrel would get in the way of their duties.

 

Corax is struggling with the betrayal of Horus and is a damaged individual. He questions why humanity would ever trust Astartes again as he, quite rightly, sees the traitors as not only betraying their brothers, but also betraying the empire and subjects they were sworn to protect.

 

Corax is also struggling with his own feelings throughout the novel. This is made especially clear in his thoughts on his confrontation with Curze at Istvaan. He sees Curze as not so very different from himself and, but for random chance, perhaps he would have followed Horus instead of remaining loyal. He was fully prepared to die at Istvann, and in some ways, seemed to be seeking death.

 

After his unexpected 'deliverance', he was 100% focussed on revenge and redemption. Ultimately, to his cost. I suspect the title of this book is absolutely a play on words. Yes, Deliverance may have been lost in some sense, but to a greater degree, Corax and the Raven Guard's very own deliverance was snatched away.

 

I feel there was a lot to think about in this novel.

 

Alpharious (primarch) stood before Horus and got talked down to by Addadon and Erebus like he was a commander being disciplined, he´s a Primarch for crying out loud.

No offence, but that's not quite what happened. Yes, Abaddon and Erebus talked down to him, but Alpharius was most definitely not happy about it and, if you recall, threatened to slay Abaddon for his imputance. Alpharius held his tounge for the most part and kept the situation under control not because of anything Abaddon or Erebus was doing or saying, but because Horus had his life hanging by a thread.

[Fintan]

After ignoring various insults to his authority as a primarch.

 

He only threatened Abbadon after abbadon threatened physical violence. Any other primarch wouldn´t have stood for even a single insult from a lesser mortal, regardless of having Horus in the room who hadn´t even stirred to talk by that point. Horus isn´t Angron and had not at any point prior to this given an impression that the Alpha Legion were in danger.

[pingo]

I'm almost certain the novel states clearly that Alpharius was intimidated and concerned Horus would effectively execute him due to his unauthorized actions in letting the RG escape. However, I don't have the book on me so can't provide evidence.

 

It was my interpretation that Alpharius was not rising to the bait. He's too smart to be goaded by Horus' lackies.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

at Games Day last year, just seeing him made my blood boil.

That seems ... extreme ... and inapproprioate ...

 

I hope for your own sake that was hyperbole!

 

Yes it was hyperbole. My distaste for him stems not just from his mediocre skills as a writer of fiction and codeci, but is added to by his statement on his blog after his botched Chaos Codex that basically said "I didn't think it needed saying that you shouldn't be able to take more than two daemon princes, 9 Obliterators etc... Because I has explained within their unit detailing how rare they were" as if all gamers are unscrupulous, angelic people who all build armies to the fluff and the rules be damned. Why bother at all? Why not have all special weapons have no additional points cost, or have land raiders the same cost as rhinos? But then expect all gamers to add the totals as they should be?

 

My issue isn't as much that he made a mistake, it's that he can't see that he didn't affect the codex with the same level of attention given to other army books. His response was almost "well, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube... I got paid for doing my job badly so let's move on and accept 1 decent build for 5 or 6 years till someone puts my mess right". If I had overlooked things in my job that badly, I'd be ashamed of myself and would admit as such to anyone who asks.

 

Back to the OP, I do understand what people are saying with regards how Istavaan affected Corax. But it had the same effect on other Primarchs, probably Vulkan in a similar manner for similar reasons. I guess whoever tells his story will give us a better benchmark for whether Thorpe screwed the pooch on this one or whether Vulkan too needs a trip to the set of Dr Phil for a good cry and to hug it out.

[Noserenda]

If all the Primarchs had the same relationship with their Legions that would be pretty boring wouldnt it?

 

Corax is a Freedom Fighter rather than a general id expect him to have a completely different command ethos to Horus or Angron for example even before Istvaan.

 

As for Alpharius, a)Pingo has it right and :) Who says it was even "Alpharius" ;)

[Qarassen]

If all the Primarchs had the same relationship with their Legions that would be pretty boring wouldnt it?

 

Corax is a Freedom Fighter rather than a general id expect him to have a completely different command ethos to Horus or Angron for example even before Istvaan.

 

As for Alpharius, a)Pingo has it right and :) Who says it was even "Alpharius" ;)

 

Agree!

[clanfield]

i have too i loved it it was brilliant more please mr thorpe raven guard were good flawed and battered and did i mention i loved it

[Morollan]

Thought it was a load of rubbish but sadly, that is what I've come to expect from Mr Thorpe as an "author". Anyway, I'm sure there's a long thread on this already elsewhere so I don't really see that we need go over it all again.

[Midgard]

I thought that "Deliverance Lost" was frustrating on several levels. My experience with Gav's writing has been hit and miss - I thought "Angels of Darkness" was good, but "Purging of Kadillus" almost made me quit buying Space Marine Battles books, while the short stories I have read ranged from very good (the Avenging Sons renegade stories) to pretty bad (the "prequel" story to "Deliverance Lost" was, in my opinion, the weakest one in "Age of Darkness"). More recently, "The Lion" in "The Primarchs" anthology was actually very enjoyable.

 

In "Deliverance Lost", there are two very distinct halves, one of which is very Codex-like, does not have strong character development, and is generally not very satisfying. The focus on Corax in the first half of the book just does not work - the Primarchs are better off explored through the eyes of the other characters, with only few glimpses into their minds, as it makes them seem very... mundane, for the lack of a better word. Corax, as presented in the first half of the book, definitely did not have the "wow" factor, and at no point did he feel like a Primarch, psychological damage or not. His parts set in the "present" felt like an uninspired actor reciting dramatic dialogue with no genuine emotion or engagement behind it.

 

The other half - the second half of the book - is where things pick up, and the novel quality improves to the levels I normally expect from Horus Heresy books. There are actual multidimensional characters who get good amounts of page time instead of being narrative tools to present a viewpoint, and the lack of personal focus on Corax really helps. "Alpharius" finally gets some long-overdue character development (only to cut what was a very interesting thread short when he suddenly seems to abandon all his doubts and concerns - that would have been a great angle to explore).

 

The other bright spot in the book was the use of flashbacks. Unfortunately, this was also one of the most frustrating parts for me. The flashbacks seemed to be written much better than big portions of the book, and while they do indeed prove that Gav can write very well when he sets out to do so, they represent a very big contrast with the tepid first half of "Deliverance Lost". The flashbacks made me wonder why the rest of the novel was not written to the same consistently high standard.

 

I was very disappointed with the presentation of Alpha Legion. In "Deliverance Lost", they seemed more like buffoons than elite operatives dealing in secrets and lies. To contrast that, the depiction of Alpha Legion in "The Serpent Beneath" and in "Legion" is interesting, engaging, and keeping fully with the Legion's mysterious and ambiguous nature and allegiance. They were very "run of the mill", cookie-cutter villains in Deliverance Lost, and there were parts where I seriously expected to see some moustache-twirling.

 

In conclusion, I think "Deliverance Lost" was a mismatch of writer and novel. It was very workmanlike and rather pedestrian in approach, and it felt like the author did not have much passion about the topic, going through the motions instead to cover all points on the checklist. It is clear that Gav can write - the "flashback" parts are generally excellently written, and when he gets into the writing groove later in the novel (i.e. the parts set on Deliverance and Kiavahr), things are moving very smoothly, and it feels like a proper Heresy narrative. But I do think that his contributions to the Heresy series should be centered around Dark Angels or Death Guard (post-betrayal), as evidenced by his very good novella "The Lion", in which his writing style meshes very well with the presentation of both Legions involved.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

First of all, stop bashing Thorpe on the Chaos 'dex. Blame Alessio Cavatore. He took the blame for it, here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/01/whe...e-responds.html

 

As for DL, as a fan of the Alpha Legion and, quite seperately, a fan of Gav's Eldar novels, I liked it. Was it anywhere near as good as most of the other HH novels? No, not really. The First Five still stand out to me as the best of the bunch, followed closely by Legion and The First Heretic, but it certainly rates above Nemesis and that trash Battle for the Abyss.

 

So, why do I think it was good?

 

1. It showed Corax's difference in temperament compared to the other Primrachs. Consider the others we've had lengthy time with already. Horus, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Dorn, Ferrus, Mortarion, Magnus. Each of them has been shown as different in mindset and command philosophy than all the rest of their brothers. We've always known that Corax has been a self-blaming soul; just look at the IA:RG and how it talks about Corax's emotions after the creation of the Weregeld and what he did to put them all down. He blamed himself, and hated himself for what he felt had to be done -- so much so that he went into self-imposed exile. The kind of inner turmoil he's facing, and the way it affects his decision-making process, that has been lambasted in this thread exactly fits his nature.

 

2. Nothing about the Alpha Legion as depicted is set in stone. This is one of the core considerations that should be a part of every Alpha Legion fluff put to print. I despised Hunt for Voldorius exactly because no attempt was made to obfuscate their forces, motivations, or abilities. Gav didn't do it as well as Dan Abnett did in Legion, but at least he made a Good Old College Try. Considering that we now have a drum total of three full-length novels depicting the Alpha Legion (first perosn to mention the DoW books will get a virtual punch in the throat!), I'd say two out of three ain't bad

[Yodhrin]

I can't agree Ferrum, I'd rate DL as the worst of the series so far; Abyss and Nemesis were bad in a forgettable "Hmm, won't be rereading that any time soon" manner, while DL is a book which inspires active dislike. His stilted writing style, the plot that's more holes than anything else, the shoddy portrayal of the Alpha Legion, the questionable portrayal of Corax(I get what he intended to convey, but his execution was sub-par at best); together they form a sour note which can't just be ignored like Abyss(a story with few implications for the wider mythos) or Nemesis(a story I don't really see feeding into anything beyond perhaps a token mention), because the story creates plot points which have to be dealt with later, which means they're going to be feeding into other HH books. Now, if they keep Thorpe himself far, far, far away from those eventual resolutions/continuations, there's a chance that better authors can salvage them, but that's time being devoted to cleaning up Thorpe's mess that won't be spent on other things.

[Wade Garrett]

You may add one more to the "Did Not Like DL" column.

Normally I hang onto books forever, regardless of quality (as evidence, I submit my whole shelf full of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" tie ins) but after reading all the way through Deliverance Lost just once I hoofed it down to the second hand book store and traded it in for two David Gemmell novels, which I consider one of the best deals I have made in my entire life.

 

Problems (which I am NOT going to put into spoilers, because said problems annoyed me so much I head butted a wall half way through the book, so there!)

 

1. The sudden revelation that the Emperor had a way to create Space Marines faster than the current models, and that said Space Marines would be superior to the current Astartes, but the Emperor did not use this process instead of the current one because.....oh look the Alpha Legion!

 

2. Speaking of the Alpha Legion, you're telling me these guys are so bloody good at infiltration they can replace Raven Guard officers with members of the Alpha Legion, and not even bloody Raven Guard Primarch can tell the difference. Which begs the question if these gents are that bloody good, why haven't they already conquered the Imperium and Chaos ten thousand years later....OR HAVE THEY?

 

3. When reading Fulgrim, Prospero Burns, the First Heretic, etc., I really got a sense of what makes, for instance, the Word Bearers different from every other Legion. Same thing for every other Astartes focused HH book I've picked up...except for Deliverance Lost. Change a few words and it could have just as easily been about the White Scars or the Iron Hands, I never really felt the Raven Guardiness of the Ravens.

 

4. In all previous lore, Corax used forbidden practices to rebuild his Legion, resulting in monstrous abominations, because he desired BLOOD VENGEANCE! In Deliverance Lost, he got permission from the Emperor to use the super secret Create-A-Marine process that is so much better than the one everyone else is using now, and it was working perfectly...until the Alpha Legion. Who now have sole control over said super secret new and improved Create-A-Marine process.

 

I have no idea what wrong here, I still have my copy of the Last Chancers omnibus my Mr. Thorpe and I enjoy thumbing through it every now and again. I'm a bit baffled on how the same author wrote those books and Deliverance Lost.

[Perrin]

I agree most with WG's 4th point, in that it was a pretty bad retcon. The old fluff made Corax's story more grim-dark, and had a lot more feel to it than this. What possible reason could he have to run off to the EoT now? The old fluff had him wracked with guilt over the monsters he had created, but that really didn't come across in DL.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Thorpe's older material was pretty good. He's lost his touch with Space Marines and the Imperium in general recently.

[daveNYC]

It changed the story of Corax from a Greek tragedy, where the protagonist has a character flaw that leads to his downfall, into a regular tragedy, where just bad things happen.

Shorter: 'Alpha Legion did it' does not a good plot make.

[Bulwyf]

Was I the only one that enjoyed his depiction of Corax? It was frankly somewhat refreshing to see a Primarch that:

 

A. Was not too full of himself

B. Was not overly brooding

C. Did not have a hair trigger temper

D. Did not have some unresolved tension with the Emperor

E. Actually felt he was a human being more so by far than any other Primarch we've seen

F. Showed emotions and expressed himself well with both Astartes and humans

G. Valued loyalty but also was not blinded by it as we've seen with other Primarchs

 

While I agree with some of the criticisms on here the one thing I truly liked more than anything was his handling of Corax. I went into fearing some slightly more stable version of Konrad Curze and was instead given a truly likable and approachable character.

[daveNYC]

Eh, I'm OKish with that, my problem with Corax is his character arc over the course of the story. He more or less starts and ends at the same point. If anything, by the end of the story he's even more well adjusted than he was at the beginning. Some of that might be due to expectations though. I'm pretty sure that everyone reading the story was waiting for the bit where Corax goes over the edge into crazy emo land, eventually to end up brooding in the tower while crazy mutant Astartes languish in the basement cells.

 

I don't see how they're going to get from where Corax is now to having him hop a shuttle for the Eye of Terror while spouting Poe. I'm sure there's a way, it's just going to seem pretty abrupt without the initial break that I think people were expecting in this book.

[dragon950]

I liked it myself, while it didn't have as much action as other books it was more about what Corax did to try to rebuild his legion more than anything else.

 

The only reason I believe that the infiltration worked was because of how crazy everything was at the time. Any longer and they would have been found out. The reason they didn't have to be super sneaky was becuase they were hiding in plain sight, the only time you have to be sneaky is when you are contactig your handlers, which they did by using someones elses codes.

 

My guess is that later on something hapens that turns the rest of them unstable and he has to kill them all, just think of the story not done yet until the heresy is over. As far as how he acts, I like the change from the normal demi-god attitude that the rest of the primarchs act. My favorite primarchs are now Leman(because I play SW), Vulkan, and now Corax.