Challenges

[JasonfromFW]

Hello every one!

 

I'm a french speaker so escuse me if the technical terms are not exact! :P

 

During last fight against SM, a question came up.

 

My assault squad charged into a 10 men tactical with a PF sergeant at the very back of the squad.

My plan was to challenge his sergeant (mine has a LC) in order to stop him before he strikes.

After contact, I challenged him.

He said that in the english rulebook (I'm using the french one), only "engaged" models can accept duels. As his PF sergeant was more than 2" away from a base to base model in his unit at the start of combat, he cannot accept a challenge. Then at init1 pile-in moves, he moved in 3", and is engaged to attack.

 

Is that correct? A translation bug? As in the french version, anyone in the squad can accept challenges, 2" away for a base to base model or not.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Brother Weasel]

He is correct

[Arthanor]

While he may be correct about challenges there might be an issue with what was done:

 

I think pile in moves are made at a model's initiative, not when they strike (wording is important). A power fist does not make a model i1, it makes it strike at i1. The tactical sergeant should thus have made his pile in at i4, not at i1. Of course, since the defending player allocates hits in cc, it is unlikely that the sergeant would have died before striking, but it does make a difference. One way or another, in the next cc phase, you should be able to challenge the bugger.

[Brother Weasel]

While he may be correct about challenges there might be an issue with what was done:

 

I think pile in moves are made at a model's initiative, not when they strike (wording is important). A power fist does not make a model i1, it makes it strike at i1. The tactical sergeant should thus have made his pile in at i4, not at i1. Of course, since the defending player allocates hits in cc, it is unlikely that the sergeant would have died before striking, but it does make a difference. One way or another, in the next cc phase, you should be able to challenge the bugger.

 

they move in at init, yes, mostly the Unwieldy rule says it attacks at init step 1... but it didn't make a difference to the challenge part of it so i ignored it:) but He could be killed before his init step when he's moved into range etc... but if he's alive, he could issue a challenge the next turn.

[Arthanor]

It does not impact challenges, that's true. It still felt like something worth mentioning since, with the pile in moves at i4, the sergeant can be struck against in cc, achieving the same goal as the challenge. There are too many people who think that taking a power axe/fist means you can hide and strike later. With the sergeant piling in at i4, if you manage to kill all the models that are closer to the unit than the sergeant, forcing your opponent to allocate wounds on him, or if your sergeant scores a 6 to hit, getting a precision strike, you can kill a power fist before it strikes.

 

It is cowardly for a sergeant to hang out in the back for a while and then make a last minute pile in and punch, as well as not following the rules.

[Brother Weasel]

It does not impact challenges, that's true. It still felt like something worth mentioning since, with the pile in moves at i4, the sergeant can be struck against in cc, achieving the same goal as the challenge. There are too many people who think that taking a power axe/fist means you can hide and strike later. With the sergeant piling in at i4, if you manage to kill all the models that are closer to the unit than the sergeant, forcing your opponent to allocate wounds on him, or if your sergeant scores a 6 to hit, getting a precision strike, you can kill a power fist before it strikes.

 

It is cowardly for a sergeant to hang out in the back for a while and then make a last minute pile in and punch, as well as not following the rules.

 

Indeed

[Dark Legionnare]

While he may be correct about challenges there might be an issue with what was done:

 

I think pile in moves are made at a model's initiative, not when they strike (wording is important). A power fist does not make a model i1, it makes it strike at i1. The tactical sergeant should thus have made his pile in at i4, not at i1. Of course, since the defending player allocates hits in cc, it is unlikely that the sergeant would have died before striking, but it does make a difference. One way or another, in the next cc phase, you should be able to challenge the bugger.

 

We had this same issue come up this past weekend. Arthanor is right, models pile in at Initiative, not their weapon's Initiative. By and by that means that fisty Searges can't hide in the back and avoid challenges, and then hit back at I1.

[Morticon]

This is HOTLY contested in the OR, and different places will play it differently.

 

We play that you pile in when you strike, as its alluded to in the diagram.

But thats a discussion for the OR and the multiple multiple page thread there.

[Arthanor]

Pfff, after looking at the threads in the OR, my conviction has been shaken.. Although I still believe in the argument I made, I don't do so enough to try to tell anyone they're wrong. We'll see when a rulebook FAQ comes out, hopefully.

[Sir Blayse]

Actually everyone seems to have not read the rules for Challenges on page 64. It does not have anything mentioned about 2" or pile-in moves, or even initiative values. Technically a challenge will take place even before Hammer of Wrath.

 

One side issues with their character, the other side picks the challenger to accept. Move these two into base contact with each other, but still in coherency with unit. These two fight their own separate battle, as a normal battle between those two.

 

So it doesn't matter where in the unit you are or if you pile in on a certain initiative. Also, if a side refuses, then one of his character models is excluded from the fight, doesn't matter where he is located.

[Dallas Drake]

I know this is the wrong place for it but there's no way you pile in at I4 but strike at I1. Pile in is part of the FIGHT sub phase, you don't pile in then attack, you attack & piling in is part of that. Muddy as hell though :)

 

Anyway... Irrespective of which ruling you play I am only considering Power Fists on non-characters (DC). I run meltabomb sergeants now & use them as Star Trek red shirts just for challenges etc. Frankly, even if I tool up a sergeant he's still only T4 I4 & 1W at best. Most armies that are good in hth (Nids, Chaos, Daemons) will gut him anyway so I may as well keep him cheap & sacrificial. Same with my SHP, I plan to keep him naked, keep him cheap & hide him at the back.

 

Dallas

[SevenExxes]

Actually everyone seems to have not read the rules for Challenges on page 64. It does not have anything mentioned about 2" or pile-in moves, or even initiative values. Technically a challenge will take place even before Hammer of Wrath.

 

One side issues with their character, the other side picks the challenger to accept. Move these two into base contact with each other, but still in coherency with unit. These two fight their own separate battle, as a normal battle between those two.

 

So it doesn't matter where in the unit you are or if you pile in on a certain initiative. Also, if a side refuses, then one of his character models is excluded from the fight, doesn't matter where he is located.

 

This.

[Dallas Drake]

So a unit of Genestealers with a Broodlord charges a BA RAS. Lets say the Nids player challenges the unit of RAS with his Broodlord. The RAS has a Serg with a Power Fist. Let's say the Serg accepts, they do their challenge before Initiative step 10, but they use their respective Initiatives right? So, really it makes no difference, the Broodlord strikes at I7 or whatever he is & kills the PF Serg. Don't have my rulebook with me right now but it seems like Initiative will play a part no matter whether there's a challenge or not. Or am I missing something (very likely).

 

- Dallas

[Morticon]

Actually everyone seems to have not read the rules for Challenges on page 64. It does not have anything mentioned about 2" or pile-in moves, or even initiative values. Technically a challenge will take place even before Hammer of Wrath.

 

One side issues with their character, the other side picks the challenger to accept. Move these two into base contact with each other, but still in coherency with unit. These two fight their own separate battle, as a normal battle between those two.

 

So it doesn't matter where in the unit you are or if you pile in on a certain initiative. Also, if a side refuses, then one of his character models is excluded from the fight, doesn't matter where he is located.

 

This.

 

 

Well- no -not this.

 

It matters very much where in the unit you are - but as noted, pile in/init etc is inconsequential.

 

It matters where you are because you may not accept a challenge with a model that is not engaged in combat. (ie: within 2" of a model in BTB) - the odd thing is, he may later be available to fight.

 

So a Broodlord challenges a unit of RAS with a Serg with a Power Fist. Let's say the Serg accepts & they do their challenge before Initiative step 10, but they use their respective Initiatives right? So, the Broodlord strikes at I7 or whatever he is & kills the PF Serg? Don't have my rulebook with me right now.

 

The challenge is issued before init 10, but they fight at their respective initiatives, whatever that is.

[Lysere]

Actually everyone seems to have not read the rules for Challenges on page 64. It does not have anything mentioned about 2" or pile-in moves, or even initiative values. Technically a challenge will take place even before Hammer of Wrath.

 

One side issues with their character, the other side picks the challenger to accept. Move these two into base contact with each other, but still in coherency with unit. These two fight their own separate battle, as a normal battle between those two.

 

So it doesn't matter where in the unit you are or if you pile in on a certain initiative. Also, if a side refuses, then one of his character models is excluded from the fight, doesn't matter where he is located.

 

This.

 

 

Well- no -not this.

 

It matters very much where in the unit you are - but as noted, pile in/init etc is inconsequential.

 

It matters where you are because you may not accept a challenge with a model that is not engaged in combat. (ie: within 2" of a model in BTB) - the odd thing is, he may later be available to fight.

 

 

Well that's good to know. Looks like we've been playing it wrong. (By we i mean my LGS. Although it wouldn't have changed those fights at all) The Challenger has to be a member of a unit locked in combat, meanwhile further down it says that characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue a challenge. Accepting the challenge says the same thing as well.

 

So you can hide your guy in back and avoid a challenge the first round. (Maybe) In the second or third round of CC there is no hiding though.

[Sir Blayse]

Well- no -not this.

 

It matters very much where in the unit you are - but as noted, pile in/init etc is inconsequential.

 

It matters where you are because you may not accept a challenge with a model that is not engaged in combat. (ie: within 2" of a model in BTB) - the odd thing is, he may later be available to fight.

 

That's not what it says in the rule exactly, though I don't think I can actually post the whole part. The key part is that is does not say the model must be locked in combat, but that he must be part of the unit locked in combat to accept. You then move him into base to base with the challenge model.

 

The section on p. 23 is referring to which models get to fight in the regular battle, the challenge is in a different section and happens outside of the normal combat. But, this section even mentions that a unit with one or more models in base contact is now locked in combat. The key here is the unit and not just models. A character even in the back can except the challenge, if even mentions that the other members of the squad would basically move out of the way to let their challenger forward. If both champs are in the back, then you would move both forward in their units to make base to base. Challenges are also fought in the fight sub-phase before any other blows are struck. Even Hammer of Wrath attacks. This is fine for characters like sgts and other upgrades. If your HQ or Independant character wants to issue the challenge, then he would have to be locked in with a least one model of the enemy unit, the same goes for the accepting HQ or IP. A sgt with powerfist could be anywhere in his unit to accept. If challenged and you have a model that could of accepted and refuse, then he doesn't get to pile-in at intiative and then swing.

 

Even though a challenge happens in the fight phase it is something clearly different, notice how it is in a different section even. The good thing with challenges is it keeps people from trying hide PF in the back just to sneak in some wicked hits. Also, there are some other points on pg. 63 that state when you do pile-in with your character he must attempt to get into base to base before other members of his unit at that initiative step and can not hold back " leaders should lead from the front".

 

So it might be possible to have your HQ or IP play chicken, but unlikely that a sgt can play that game. Plus, if you do decide to play chicken, my character will mock yours for his cowardice. Also, any sixes my guy rolls are going into your chicken. Better hope to not fail your Look Out Sirs.

[Sir Blayse]

I think pile in moves are made at a model's initiative, not when they strike (wording is important). A power fist does not make a model i1, it makes it strike at i1. The tactical sergeant should thus have made his pile in at i4, not at i1. Of course, since the defending player allocates hits in cc, it is unlikely that the sergeant would have died before striking, but it does make a difference. One way or another, in the next cc phase, you should be able to challenge the bugger.

 

wow, i missed this earlier, but it is a bit of genius here. according to pg. 23 this is correct. the pile-in is separate from the actual strikes and it goes by the models int value. the rule for powerfist only make the marine swing at that value, but he is still considered to be int 4 for others things. helps deal with that confusing issue with powerfist and sweeping advances in 5th ed. So with both sides having to pile in an additional 3" each to try and get into combat make for an interesting battle. may not make a difference to a challenge, but i'm seeing it as long as that character has not been made unable to fight ( probably a special effect or power) or is somehow already locked in with another unit, then he can accept the challenge. Though the other interpretation of the rule could be what they intended as well, depends on how your reading it. just as above any character refusing a challenge will have all Precise Strikes go his way for sure.

 

Plus, so far in all of my games played with the new rules, no one has tried to run their character as a coward. Even my lowly Tac Sgt will take the Xeno challenge, sometimes he even wins out. Worst case he may have saved the rest of the squad from getting hit by the harder hitting weapon. In a lot of case you still might win this anyway.

[DominicJ]

I think arguing that your sarge cant be challenged, because he is 4 inches away, so he doesn't have to decline and hide, but can then step forward and slap someone later is really really pushing it.

 

In my view anyway.

[Judaz]

Where, in the challenges section, is initiative mentioned?

 

It simply states:

 

'To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your

units locked in the combat to be the challenger.'

 

and

 

'If your opponent has issued a challenge, you can now accept

it - nominate one of the characters in your unit to be the

challengee.'

 

I can't find anything about inititive or 2".

[Dragonet40k]

nvm - seems like the sentence referring to having to be engaged to issue a challenge is further down the page than I expected.

[Morticon]

Well- no -not this.

 

It matters very much where in the unit you are - but as noted, pile in/init etc is inconsequential.

 

It matters where you are because you may not accept a challenge with a model that is not engaged in combat. (ie: within 2" of a model in BTB) - the odd thing is, he may later be available to fight.

 

That's not what it says in the rule exactly, though I don't think I can actually post the whole part. The key part is that is does not say the model must be locked in combat, but that he must be part of the unit locked in combat to accept. You then move him into base to base with the challenge model.

 

 

There may be something im missing in your post, but this is what I based my thoughts off of:

 

pg 64: Issuing A Challenge

"Character that cannot fight or strike blows (inlcuding those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges"

 

pg 64: Accepting A Challenge

"Character that cannot fight or strike blows (inlcuding those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges"

 

 

So, whether or not its silly or beardy, or "pushing it" doesn't really matter since it seems to be very clear.

I may be missing something here, so i'm all ears !

 

hit me back.

[Sir Blayse]

i did happen to see that part later, though is seems to put a weak spot in challenges if so, though with the chance for a charge move to be anywhere from 2" to 12" it is going to be a lot harder to keep a guy out of challenge range. In most cases depending on how you move of course you should be able to either be in base to base or within two inches of an engaged model.

 

When I first read that part I read it as a model could not accept a challenge if he was locked in with another unit or previous combat, though not sure on that now either. I'll just stick to try to get in range to issue he has to or use the Precise shot and Precise Strike to deal with cowards. Seems like something a Xeno would do anyway, no self-respecting Marine is going to shy away from a fight.

[Demoulius]

glad to see im not the only one who ran into this badly worded part of the big book :devil:

 

*sighes*

 

do they proof read these books before they send them out the door?

[Morticon]

glad to see im not the only one who ran into this badly worded part of the big book :D

 

*sighes*

 

do they proof read these books before they send them out the door?

 

Not to sound like im springing to the defense of the writers, but...how much of this is actually our fault for not reading properly?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

glad to see im not the only one who ran into this badly worded part of the big book <_<

 

*sighes*

 

do they proof read these books before they send them out the door?

 

Not to sound like im springing to the defense of the writers, but...how much of this is actually our fault for not reading properly?

 

98% of all rules 'debates' are nothing more than poor comprehension on the part of the reader. IMO, of course.