Reserve Requirements and Dedicated Transports

[BigDunc]

I did not find a thread concerning this topic, and spent the time to write up this explanation for another forum, so I thought I'd post it here as well.

 

People throughout the 40k community are misunderstanding what role dedicated transports play in terms of reserve requirements, particularly when it comes to flyers and drop pods. ('Reserve requirements' is my shorthand term for determining the number of units that may be placed in reserve. I also use the term 'reserve restrictions'.)

 

For example:

Drop Pods & Flyers must begin the game in reserve. Period. Yes, half of the Pods (rounding up) must enter the game immediately at the start of the owning player's Movement phase, but they start in Reserve.

 

None of those units (Pods/Flyers) count towards the 50% rule.

 

If those units are Dedicated Transports, then the unit that they are designated for can go inside them in Reserves and also does not count towards the 50% rule. (Minor pushback here: the rule does NOT specifically state that the passenger unit must be inside its transport, so simply having the transport can be considered a way to get the unit "off the books" for the 50% rule.)

The third paragraph regarding dedicated transports is completely incorrect and this misconception is what I'm addressing.

 

 

Drop pods are the key to understanding this situation. A drop pod must start in reserve therefore the drop pod itself is ignored (or doesn't count towards) for reserve requirements. Furthermore, a unit(s) embarked upon a drop pod is ignored for reserve requirements. Why does a drop pod seem to bestow the ability to ignore reserve requirements on a unit(s)? If your answer is "because the drop pod is a dedicated transport", you're wrong. If your answer is "because the drop pod is a dedicated transport and it must arrive by deep strike" you're still wrong. The only correct answer is "because the drop pod must arrive by deep strike." The fact that a drop pod is a dedicated transport (in all the current codices) has nothing to do with the fact that units embarked upon the drop pod don't count towards reserve requirements. The only reason is because the drop pod must arrive by deep strike. This holds true for every type of unit/transport in the game. In other words, the only unit that can bestow the 'ability' to ignore reserve requirements is a transport that must arrive by deep strike.

 

Why? Because the phrase "dedicated transport" and the word "dedicated" are never used on page 36, and it is page 36 that allows units embarked upon a transport that must arrive by deep strike to be ignored for reserve requirements. (The fact that a drop pod is a dedicated transport is coincidental and if you add it into the equation it just causes confusion.) Furthermore, the dedicated transport rules do not allow a dedicated transport to bestow upon a unit the ability to ignore reserve requirements.

 

"Yeah, but 'A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.'"

 

Great rulebook quote... but it changes nothing.

 

This sentence could have been written more clearly, but a simple understanding is there within what is written, and that understanding is: a unit and its dedicated transport never count for more than 1 unit when determining reserve requirements. In other words, a maximum of "1 unit" is created for a unit and its transport. In other words, dedicated transports do not count towards reserve requirements. In other words, dedicated transports ignore reserve requirements. Pick your favorite, they all mean the same thing: 1 unit towards reserve requirement is the maximum. What this sentence in no way suggest, refers, or alludes to is the ability of dedicated transports to bestow upon a unit the ability to ignore reserve requirements. If this were the case, every single unit in the game that purchased a dedicated transport would receive the 'ability' to ignore reserve requirements.

 

 

Which units can bestow the 'ability' to ignore reserve requirements?

Units without transport capacity? No.

Units with transport capacity that must arrive by deep strike? Yes.

Units with dedicated transport capacity that must arrive by deep strike? Yes.

Units with dedicated transport capacity? No.

Units with transport capacity that must start the game in reserve? No.

Units with dedicated transport capacity that must start the game in reserve? No.

 

'Yes' requires "deep strike." 'No' lacks "deep strike." It's that simple. Note that "dedicated transport" is not the deciding factor.

 

 

Which units can receive the 'ability' to ignore reserve requirements?

Units embarked upon a transport that must arrive by deep strike? Yes.

Units embarked upon a transport that must start in reserve? No.

Units embarked upon a dedicated transport? No.

Units not embarked upon their dedicated transport? No.

Units embarked upon a dedicated transport that must arrive by deep strike? Yes.

Units embarked upon a dedicated transport that must start the game in reserves? No.

Units not embarked upon a transport that must arrive by deep strike? No.

Units not embarked upon their dedicated transport that must start the game in reserve? No.

Units not embarked upon their dedicated transport that must arrive by deep strike? No.

 

'Yes' requires "deep strike" and "embarkation." 'No' lacks "deep strike" and "embarkation." It's that simple. Note that "dedicated transport" is not the deciding factor.

 

 

None of this changes for flying dedicated transports (ie Night Scythes) because in order to bestow the ability to ignore reserve requirements the flying dedicated transport must have the requirement of arriving by deep strike, and the Night Scythe, at least, does not have that requirement. So, units that purchase the Night Scythe, even if they are embarked upon the Night Scythe, count towards reserve requirements.

[pyroknight]

It seems you are only referencing the deep strike rules. What about the reserve rules on page 142?

 

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the opponent.

 

A flyer must start in reserve. If that flyer is also a dedicated transport, the flyer and its dedicated passenger unit will not count toward the 50% rule since they are one unit.

[BigDunc]

It seems you are only referencing the deep strike rules. What about the reserve rules on page 142?

 

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the opponent.

 

A flyer must start in reserve. If that flyer is also a dedicated transport, the flyer and its dedicated passenger unit will not count toward the 50% rule since they are one unit.

I've already addressed this specifically:

 

"Yeah, but 'A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.'"

 

Great rulebook quote... but it changes nothing.

 

This sentence could have been written more clearly, but a simple understanding is there within what is written, and that understanding is: a unit and its dedicated transport never count for more than 1 unit when determining reserve requirements. In other words, a maximum of "1 unit" is created for a unit and its transport. In other words, dedicated transports do not count towards reserve requirements. In other words, dedicated transports ignore reserve requirements. Pick your favorite, they all mean the same thing: 1 unit towards reserve requirement is the maximum. What this sentence in no way suggest, refers, or alludes to is the ability of dedicated transports to bestow upon a unit the ability to ignore reserve requirements. If this were the case, every single unit in the game that purchased a dedicated transport would receive the 'ability' to ignore reserve requirements.

But I haven't argued the following:

The phrase that's causing the problems is this: "these purposes." So what is being referred to as "these purposes" in the sentence "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes"?

 

Most people are going to say that "these purposes" refers to the preceding sentence: "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so." And I think that's fair to do considering the order of the sentences. However, doing so does not accomplish what most people want it to (ie flying dedicated transports removing the reserve requirement of embarked units). When the sentence "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes" uses the phrase "these purposes" it is referring to the same purposes that the sentence "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" is referring to (ie the purpose of the paragraph on pg142 as a whole). In other words, "these purposes" refers specifically to "...the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" in the preceding sentence. In other words, the 'later' sentence actually says, "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so]." And nothing about this sentence allows a dedicated transport that inherently ignores reserve requirements do not bestow that ability onto a unit it is carrying. In other words, dedicated transports never remove reserve requirements from other units. Rather, dedicated transports themselves ignore reserve requirements, nothing more.

[puffin]

I may not be understanding you properly, but if you are suggesting that we ignore the drop pod plus it's contents when we calculate the reserves value but then take the contents of the pod into consideration when we declare our reserves then you have just declared that all drop pod armies are banned.

 

Simple maths:

 

My army contains 6 drop pods with 6 squads in them. I perform my calculation (12 units - 6 that must start in reserve - 6 that are ignored because their dedicated transport has already been taken into account = 0 units) and determine that I am allowed to place up to 0 divided by 2 units in reserve (rounded upwards, that's 0).

 

So you're saying that all my squads must start on the board because the dedicated transport doesn't convey "must start in reserve" to it's contents? Sounds a bit fishy to me.

[BigDunc]

I may not be understanding you properly, but if you are suggesting that we ignore the drop pod plus it's contents when we calculate the reserves value but then take the contents of the pod into consideration when we declare our reserves then you have just declared that all drop pod armies are banned.

This is not at all what I'm trying to say. Can you clarify where in my argument I suggest "...then take the contents of the pod into consideration when we declare our reserves..."

 

Simple maths:

 

My army contains 6 drop pods with 6 squads in them. I perform my calculation (12 units - 6 that must start in reserve - 6 that are ignored because their dedicated transport has already been taken into account = 0 units) and determine that I am allowed to place up to 0 divided by 2 units in reserve (rounded upwards, that's 0).

 

So you're saying that all my squads must start on the board because the dedicated transport doesn't convey "must start in reserve" to it's contents? Sounds a bit fishy to me.

Your math is correct; however, the rules you've used for that math are not.

 

6 units and 6 drop pods totals 12. The 6 drop pods are ignored because they "must-deep strike" (which is importantly more specific than saying "must-reserve"). Alternatively, or additionally, you can ignore the drop pods because they are dedicated transports. When it comes to the 6 units, they are ignored because they are embarked upon a transport that must deep strike (assuming these units are actually embarked upon the drop pod). Notice that I did not say dedicated transport. The fact that the drop pod is a dedicated transport is in no way justification for why these 6 units are ignored. They are ignored because the drop pod is a transport that must deep strike, and only because it must deep strike. Every unit ignores reserve restrictions therefore you must deploy 0 units.

 

Same numbers of units, different situation. The 6 pods are ignored as above. 4 of the other units are embarked on their drop pod so they are ignored as above. 2 units, however, are not going to be embarked on a drop pod. Therefore the total towards reserve restrictions is 2, divided by two, so you must deploy 1 unit during the deployment phase.

[puffin]

You said "In other words, dedicated transports never remove reserve requirements from other units. Rather, dedicated transports themselves ignore reserve requirements, nothing more." This is where you are suggesting that anything that is in the pod must count against the reserve requirements.

 

You also said a lot of things about deep strike that I don't think are correct.

 

Page 36 states:

When working out how many units may be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored

 

Page 124 states

Units that must start in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes

 

You'll note that the wording in italics are functionally identical, and also that the bolded sections are functionally identical (as you can only start the game embarked in a dedicated transport).

 

Therefore, the procedure on Page 124 of

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later

 

is clearly saying that you determine how many units (that are not ignored) may be placed in reserve by summing the number of units you have (that are not ignored) dividing by two and then rounding up.

 

It follows, therefore, that if you have a unit with a dedicated transport that MUST start in RESERVE (either due to having to arrive via Deep Strike, Daemonic Assault, being a Flyer or other special rule) then that unit is ignored for the purposes of both the reserve calculation and deciding who starts in reserve.

 

As for the question of "do you ignore units that choose not to embark on their dedicated transport that must start in reserve" it appears we have a conflict as the Deep Strike rules suggest that you do and the more general rules of Page 124 suggest you don't. Perhaps this means that Flying Dedicated transports are simply better than Drop Pods? :)

[BigDunc]

I've address all of your points already, so I'll be brief and try to repeat myself as little as possible.

 

You said "In other words, dedicated transports never remove reserve requirements from other units. Rather, dedicated transports themselves ignore reserve requirements, nothing more." This is where you are suggesting that anything that is in the pod must count against the reserve requirements.

It does no such thing because a drop pod allows units embarked upon it to ignore reserve restrictions because the drop pod is a transport that must deep strike. The fact that a drop pod is a dedicated transport has nothing to do with why a unit embarked upon it is ignored; it's just a coincidence. If a non-dedicated drop pod could be purchased, the unit inside would still be ignored because 'dedicated transport' is not the deciding factor. You, and many others, are adding 'dedicated transport' to the equation when it isn't necessary. Then that 'addition' gets used later in the argument as a justification for, as you put it, "It follows, therefore, that if you have a unit with a dedicated transport that MUST start in RESERVE"

 

You'll note that the wording in italics are functionally identical, and also that the bolded sections are functionally identical (as you can only start the game embarked in a dedicated transport).

The italics, I agree. The bold sections, I don't; they are not functionally identical. Specifically, "along with any models embarked upon them" includes an embarkation requirement and "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes" does not. In other words, a unit and a dedicated transport count as a single unit for the purposes of reserve requirements even if that unit does not intend to embark upon its dedicated transport. When it comes to being embarked on a transport (dedicated or not) that must deep strike, a unit ignores reserve requirements so long as that unit is embarked upon that "must-deep strike" transport. So, no, they aren't functionally identical.

 

Also, you need to clarify "as you can only start the game embarked in a dedicated transport" because there are very few situations in which you are required to embark upon a purchased dedicated transport.

 

It follows, therefore, that if you have a unit with a dedicated transport that MUST start in RESERVE (either due to having to arrive via Deep Strike, Daemonic Assault, being a Flyer or other special rule) then that unit is ignored for the purposes of both the reserve calculation and deciding who starts in reserve.

The bolded statement is the mistake people are making. What you are saying does not follow; you're making an inferential leap that isn't there. The following units ignore reserve restrictions: dedicated transports, units that must deep strike, and units embarked upon a unit that must deep strike. That's it. Units embarked on a dedicated transport do not. Units embarked upon a dedicated transport that must deep strike do. Dedicated transport do not bestow their own 'ability' to ignore reserve restrictions upon their unit; that is the leap everyone is making because they don't understand how drop pods work. And quoting this, "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes" doesn't change anything.

 

Also, very important point. Possibly more important than anything else I've said. A unit that "must-reserve" is different than a unit that "must-deep strike." A drop pod, must deep strike, therefore it must reserve. It cannot deep strike without going into reserve. A stormraven must reserve, but it is not require to deep strike. It can go into reserve without deep striking. Therefore, the Stormraven, as well as every other flyer with transport capacity, does not allow its occupants to ignore reserve restrictions. This includes the Night Scythe, a flying dedicated transport, because 'dedicated transports' do not remove reserve requirements from other units.

[Acebaur]

I think I understand what you are trying to say.

 

Are you saying that the "purposes" in this sentence

A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.

Is referring to this part of the paragraph

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

and not this part?

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

 

So in other words the DT and it's passengers are 1 unit when counting how many units, but are not ignored when the DT has to start in reserve?

 

I see your reasoning, but I think it can be read the other way as well. That DTs that must be in reserve(like flyers) can have their passengers be ignored.

[pyroknight]

perhaps everyone should try and resolve the following example:

 

Suppose i have 10 tactical squads, 2 drop pods, 2 rhinos, and 2 stormravens.

What is my total unit count? and how many unit can I ignore for reserve calculations?

 

 

In my own understanding, I have 10 units (4 tac squads and 6 transports). I can ignore 4 of them for my reserve calculation since i have 4 units (2 drops pods and 2 stormravens) that must start in reserves.

[BigDunc]

I think I understand what you are trying to say.

 

Are you saying that the "purposes" in this sentence

A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.

Is referring to this part of the paragraph

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

and not this part?

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

Yes. 'Purpose' in "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes" and "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" both refer to "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later." There is less correlation between the 1st and 2nd sentences than people seem to think. The stronger correlation is between the 1st and 3rd, and the 2nd and 3rd.

 

So in other words the DT and it's passengers are 1 unit when counting how many units, but are not ignored when the DT has to start in reserve?

Correct. In the first half of your sentence, the unit and dedicate transport accomplish this "single unit" by effectively ignoring the dedicated transport. The unit that purchased the dedicated transport is like a 'base' and will always count for the '1' while the dedicated transport is ignored. If the dedicated transport "must-reserve," the 'base' unit still counts as 1 because the deciding factor is "must-deep strike." If the dedicated transport "must-deep strike" then the unit that is embarked is ignored.

 

perhaps everyone should try and resolve the following example:

 

Suppose i have 10 tactical squads, 2 drop pods, 2 rhinos, and 2 stormravens.

What is my total unit count? and how many unit can I ignore for reserve calculations?

 

 

In my own understanding, I have 10 units (4 tac squads and 6 transports). I can ignore 4 of them for my reserve calculation since i have 4 units (2 drops pods and 2 stormravens) that must start in reserves.

Tac Squad embarked on its Rhino = 1 (the Rhino is effectively ignored because it is a dedicated transport)

Tac Squad embarked on its Rhino = 1

Tac Squad embarked on its Drop Pod = 0 (the drop pod is ignored because it is a dedicated transport, and/or because it is a unit that must deep strike; the Tac Squad is ignored because it is embarked upon a unit that must deep strike)

Tac Squad embarked on a non-dedicated Drop Pod = 0 (the drop pod is ignored because it must deep strike; the Tac Squad is ignored because it is embarked upon a unit that must deep strike)

Tac Squadx6 on foot = 6

Empty Stormraven = 0 (because it must reserve)

Empty Stormraven = 0

 

The total is 8, halved, so 4 units must deploy.

 

 

Here's another situation:

Tac Squad on foot next to its Rhino = 1 (embarkation doesn't matter for dedicated transports)

Tac Squad on foot next to its Rhino = 1

Tac Squad not embarked on its Drop Pod = 1 (the pod is ignored for the same reasons above; the unit, however, is not ignored because it is not embarked upon a unit that must deep strike)

Tac Squad combat squaded and embarked on its Drop Pod = 0

Tac Squadx4 on foot = 4

Tac Squad embarked upon a Stormraven = 1 (the Tac Squad counts because the Stormraven is not a "must-deep strike" unit; the Stormraven is ignored because it must reserve)

Tac Squad embarked upon a Stormraven = 1

 

The total is 9, halved in favor of more reserves, so 4 units must deploy.

 

 

I see your reasoning, but I think it can be read the other way as well. That DTs that must be in reserve(like flyers) can have their passengers be ignored.

I see the other way around, and I'm open to an argument from that perspective. Thing is, most people just quote the reserve rules and don't actually give an argument. They attempt to let the quotes do all the work. Maybe that's because they feel like the rule is obviously in their favor. I think I've given an argument showing that the rule is not obviously so, and I think it's a strong argument. That necessitates (rightfully so) a strong rebuttal by the 'other way,' which hasn't really happened yet... and I think that's the case because there really isn't one to give.

[Gentlemanloser]

You're making this more complicated than it has to be.

 

When working out how many units may be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored

 

If I have an army consisting of two HQ slot ICs, and two Troop units with Drop Pods, I can attach the ICs to one/both squads and have every model in reserves.

 

All my minis are ignored when I see how many units I *can* place into reserve at the start of a game.

 

Essentially I *can* place zero units into reserves, as the entirety of my army is ignored as it *must* (or embarked upon a transport that must) start the gme in reserve.

 

If I had a two more Tac Squads in my army, I would then be allowed to place 50% of the two into reserves.

[puffin]

I'm not sure why you think it's the dedicated transport that should be ignored when applying the "a unit and it's dedicated transport is treated as a single unit" bit. In the case of a unit with a flying dedicated transport, why shouldn't I just say "this is a single unit that must start in reserve (as one part of it must, the whole unit must)"? Please quote the rule that states that it is the ruleset of the unit that counts and not its dedicated transport.

[BigDunc]

You're making this more complicated than it has to be.

The reserve and deep strike rules are very simple once people understand that dedicated transports play less of a role than people think. Explaining that is the difficult and complicated part.

 

I'm not sure why you think it's the dedicated transport that should be ignored when applying the "a unit and it's dedicated transport is treated as a single unit" bit. In the case of a unit with a flying dedicated transport, why shouldn't I just say "this is a single unit that must start in reserve (as one part of it must, the whole unit must)"? Please quote the rule that states that it is the ruleset of the unit that counts and not its dedicated transport.

I'm basing this understanding of dedicated transports on an interpretation of "a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes." This interpretation uses the logic that in order to purchase a dedicated transport, a unit must exist in the first place to purchase that dedicated transport. If a unit and dedicated transport count as a single unit, it makes sense to base the reserve count on the original/purchasing unit and ignore the dedicated transport.

 

When you 'combine' a unit and a flying dedicated transport into a "single unit" using "a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes", what line from the rulebook allows you to choose the "must-reserve" (and a reserve count of 0) of the flyer and not the "may-reserve" (and a reserve count of 1) of the unit to determine reserve requirements? The answer, "units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" does not help you because we haven't decided whether the 'single unit' is a must-reserve unit or a may-reserve unit. Edit: (May-reserve is an option because the original/purchasing unit has not been forced or changed into a must-reserve unit.) If a rule stated that reserve restrictions were based on dedicated transports, then you'd be golden, "units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" would apply, and the 'single unit' would count as a "must-reserve" unit and it would be ignored. However, I don't think there is any such rule. So, the stronger argument in this inductive scenario is what I gave above: If a unit and dedicated transport count as a single unit, it makes sense to base the reserve count on the original/purchasing unit and ignore the dedicated transport.

 

Addition: Establishing reserve requirements happens before units are actually put into reserve. It is not impossible or contradictory for a flying 'single unit' to be considered "may-reserve," based on the original/purchasing unit, in order to determine army-wide reserve requirements. The 'single unit' counts towards reserve requirements and then when individual units are actually placed in reserve, the flyer, at least, must be placed into reserve. This is another reason why the "may-reserve" option is held open.

[Gentlemanloser]

The reserve and deep strike rules are very simple once people understand that dedicated transports play less of a role than people think. Explaining that is the difficult and complicated part.

 

Take a GK Storm Raven. It's not a dedicated transport.

 

A GK army of;

 

HQ: Inquisitor

HQ: Inquisitor

Troop: 5 x Strike

Troop: 5 x Strike

Fast: StormRaven

Fast: StormRaven

 

Could load both the SR with a Strike Squad each, and attach the Inquisitors to a single, or both Strikes Squads.

 

And the whole lot could start in reservers.

[BigDunc]

The reserve and deep strike rules are very simple once people understand that dedicated transports play less of a role than people think. Explaining that is the difficult and complicated part.

 

Take a GK Storm Raven. It's not a dedicated transport.

 

A GK army of;

 

HQ: Inquisitor

HQ: Inquisitor

Troop: 5 x Strike

Troop: 5 x Strike

Fast: StormRaven

Fast: StormRaven

 

Could load both the SR with a Strike Squad each, and attach the Inquisitors to a single, or both Strikes Squads.

 

And the whole lot could start in reservers.

Wrong.

A unit that "must-reserve" is different than a unit that "must-deep strike." A drop pod, must deep strike, therefore it must reserve. It cannot deep strike without going into reserve. A stormraven must reserve, but it is not require to deep strike. It can go into reserve without deep striking. Therefore, the Stormraven, as well as every other flyer with transport capacity, does not allow its occupants to ignore reserve restrictions.

This is based on the deep strike rules, p36.

 

The GK army would have to deploy 2 units.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, becuase of;

 

When working out how many units may be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored

 

Everything is embarked, or must be deployed by DS.

 

Unless this is another semantic discussion about flyers.

 

In which case change my example to nilla marines with 2 x Captains, 2 x Tacs with drop pods.

 

/shrug

[Acebaur]

The reserve and deep strike rules are very simple once people understand that dedicated transports play less of a role than people think. Explaining that is the difficult and complicated part.

 

Take a GK Storm Raven. It's not a dedicated transport.

 

A GK army of;

 

HQ: Inquisitor

HQ: Inquisitor

Troop: 5 x Strike

Troop: 5 x Strike

Fast: StormRaven

Fast: StormRaven

 

Could load both the SR with a Strike Squad each, and attach the Inquisitors to a single, or both Strikes Squads.

 

And the whole lot could start in reservers.

 

This is definitely wrong. The Storm Raven is a separate unit from the Strike Squad, so they(the strike squad) could not possibly count as having to start in reserve. Also IC's each count as one unit giving you 4 total and 2 you must deploy.

 

I'm still not sure how this is supposed to be read, but bigdunc makes a compelling argument. Also a point in his favor is that DT's sit outside the force org and so since they are sort of in limbo, that sentence clears up how they are treated.

 

 

Edit:

When working out how many units may be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored

This doesn't apply to GK Storm Ravens, as they are not forced to deep strike. The above rule only applies to units that MUST Deep Strike

 

In which case change my example to nilla marines with 2 x Captains, 2 x Tacs with drop pods.

 

No one is disputing this, as DP's MUST deep strike.

[Gentlemanloser]

This is definitely wrong. The Storm Raven is a separate unit from the Strike Squad, so they(the strike squad) could not possibly count as having to start in reserve.

 

Flying SR must start in reserve.

 

When working out how many units may be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored

 

I suppose the next arguement is reserve =/= deep strike, so this doesn't apply to fliers.

 

Not sure of the actual wording on flyers.

 

Ninja'd. :(

 

This doesn't apply to GK Storm Ravens, as they are not forced to deep strike. The above rule only applies to units that MUST Deep Strike

 

Ah, I see. The reserve restriction for Flyers doesn't mention embarked units.

 

This is only mentioned for units that must deep strike.

 

Well, in that case, dedicated transports or not, the nilla army of;

 

HQ: Captain

HQ: Captain

Troop: 5 Tacs, Drop Pod

Troop: 5 Tacs, Drop Pod

 

Can all start in reserves.

 

Ninja'd again!

 

No one is disputing this, as DP's MUST deep strike.

 

Then what was this thead about?

[puffin]

Let's try to explain this another way...

 

A marine force of 1 Captain (an IC), 2 tac squads and two dedicated drop pods.

 

P.124 says "You may choose to place half (rounded up) of your force in reserve".

 

But:

• Units that MUST start in reserve always start in reserve, and do not count in this calculation
  
• A unit and its dedicated transport are treated as a single unit
  
• Independent characters are treated as a single unit, regardless of whether they have joined a squad or not
  
• (Page 36)Any unit embarked upon a unit that must arrive from deepstrike does not count
  

 

By your method I would do the following:

 

• Declare that my Captain has joined one of the squads and that all squads are embarked on their pods
  
• Realise that the 4th point allows me to ignore all of them from the calculation and therefore I can have them all in reserve
  

 

Which is all well and good, but the bolded bit is not actually written in the rules at all - it is merely an obvious conclusion drawn from RAI that we need to use otherwise the rules become farcical (the rules tell us units embarked on deep striking transports don't count when calculating how many units may be place in reserve, not that they don't count when actually declaring which units are in reserve - a subtle, but actually quite important detail otherwise the calculation results in 0 units being placed in reserve and therefore all drop pods must arrive empty).

 

Where I'm not following your argument is if I replace the drop pods with hypothetical dedicated transport flyers:

 

• I declare that my Captain has joined one of the squads and that all squads are embarked in their transports
  
• Although my transports MUST START IN RESERVE, you claim that I need to treat the unit + transport as a single unit, therefore my count at this point is 2
  
• Although my captain has joined a squad in a transport that must start in reserve (like the drop pod) you claim that I must still follow point 2, therefore my count becomes 3.
  
• Therefore I am only allowed to place 2 units in reserve (on top of the two flyers)
  

 

In my opinion the problem with the ruleset as written on this subject is that it tells you to perform the calculation before declaring which units are embarked.

 

Therefore, the only way to play it is to declare where your units are embarked and then apply the "does this unit HAVE to start in reserve" test.

 

As there is no functional difference between electing to embark on a Drop Pod or a Flying Transport, there is no functional difference in the case of the "does this unit have to start in reserve" test.

 

Honestly, this is yet another case of atrociously bad writing almost designed to cause confusion and GW need to start hiring people who can write technical English instead of fluff for the FAQs. I'm sick of every single game turning into a farcical rules debate due to poor language.

[*Furyou Miko]

The reason you ignore units with dedicated fliers for the 50% rule is that the unit and the transport count as one unit for deployment purposes. Either one has to be in reserve or neither can. You can't put a dedicated transport in reserve and put the unit it was bought for on the table, just like you can't put one half of a tactical squad on the table and the other half in reserve.

[dswanick]

You can't put a dedicated transport in reserve and put the unit it was bought for on the table,

Care to cite a rule quote for this claim?

[BigDunc]

Which is all well and good, but the bolded bit is not actually written in the rules at all - it is merely an obvious conclusion drawn from RAI that we need to use otherwise the rules become farcical (the rules tell us units embarked on deep striking transports don't count when calculating how many units may be place in reserve, not that they don't count when actually declaring which units are in reserve - a subtle, but actually quite important detail otherwise the calculation results in 0 units being placed in reserve and therefore all drop pods must arrive empty).

You wrote: "Any unit embarked upon a unit that must arrive from deepstrike does not count"

Pg36 actually says: "...units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored"

 

So, I disagree; the bold section is written into the rules. Did you perhaps mean pg36 is not part of the reserve rules?

 

 

Here's my process for determining reserves:

First, I assume everything has to deploy, then I look for exceptions.

Units that 'must-reserve' are ignored, pg124

Dedicated transports are ignored, my interpretation of pg124 which I've already discussed above

Units that 'must-deep strike' are ignored, pg36

Units embarked upon units that 'must-deep strike' are ignored, pg 36

 

Anything not excepted counts, including ICs unless they're embarked upon a unit that 'must-deep strike.' I take that number and divide it in half and round so that I can put more units in reserve. That number becomes what I've been terming 'reserve requirement.' I must put this many units on the board during the deployment phase.

 

Without "Units embarked upon units that 'must-deep strike' are ignored, pg36," pure drop pod armies are impossible, because it is pg36 that allows an IC to embark upon a drop pod and be ignored for reserve requirements. If we don't consider pg36 a legitimate reserve rule, then every unit in a drop pod army may reserve except the ICs... and that doesn't make any sense.

 

Pg36 is as important for determining reserve requirements as pg124 is... it doesn't matter if they're separate by 88 pages.

 

 

It is worth pointing out that units that were ignored may still be deployed, and units that were counted may still be reserved. The only requirement is that a player deploy a number of units equal to his 'reserve requirement.' For example:

1 IC, Tac Squad #1 with Rhino, Tac Squad #2 with Drop Pod. For the purposes of determining reserve requirement, the IC is embarked in the pod therefore the player must deploy 1 unit. The player then fills this 'reserve requirement' by deploying Tac Squad #2 on the board. Everything else goes in reserve and this is a completely legal deployment.

 

Why is this possible? Because, it logically follows that before you actually deploy units (which includes putting units in reserve) you must establish the reserve requirement of the army. That is why pg124 talks about "these purposes." The process by which you determine an army's reserve requirement is a different process for deploying units (including putting them in reserve). Also, I'm not ignoring the first words of pg124's paragraph, "When deploying their armies...." That is why I say it "logically follows." It's illogical to deploy units on the board and in reserve, then determine reserve requirements, then find out you must deploy more units. That means the following steps exist according to the rules:

Step 1, Establish 'reserve requirements'

Step 2, Deploy units

 

In my opinion the problem with the ruleset as written on this subject is that it tells you to perform the calculation before declaring which units are embarked.

This is a good point, and I kind of address it immediately above. The truth is, Step 1 and Step 2 are incorrect as I have put them above. Why? Because of combat squads. SM FAQ, "You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads.... immediately before deployment." This 'step' is not clearly written or laid out in a chart, but it is there. In other words:

Step 1, Determine combat squads and embarkations (and other pre/deployment related actions)

Step 2, Establish 'reserve requirements'

Step 3, Deploy units

 

 

As there is no functional difference between electing to embark on a Drop Pod or a Flying Transport, there is no functional difference in the case of the "does this unit have to start in reserve" test.

For the purposes of determining reserve requirements there is a functional difference, and it revolves around the fact that a drop pod is a unit that must-deep strike (and reserve) and a flying transport is a unit that must-reserve (but not deep strike). That functional difference results in the fact that a unit embarked upon a flyer does count towards reserve requirements and a unit embarked upon a drop pod does not count towards the same.

 

 

I discussed all of this with a friend today and he brought up a very good point. Let's assume for a moment that flying dedicated transports allow the embarked unit to ignore reserve requirements. With this understanding I create a Necron list that is 1 HQ and 6 Warriors squads each with a Night Scythe. The reserve requirement of this list is 0. I put everything in reserve, the game starts, and my opponent immediately starts packing up his army. Why? Because without a single dice needing to be rolled, or a single model needing to be moved, I automatically lost the game. Pg122: "If at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." This situation is possible if, and only if, the reserve rules are interpreted to allow an embarked unit on a flying dedicated transports to be ignored.

 

Granted... GW can write some pretty ambiguous rules. And this is one of those situations. But I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt (considering they've been in business for ~25 years and we're reading 6th edition rules, not 1st edition) and say that GW would not allow for a situation in which only Necrons could auto-lose. Sure, the Necron player could deploy a unit and avoid the loss. But that misses the point entirely. The point is, it is only when flying dedicated transports allow for embarked units to ignore reserve requirements does this auto-lose situation become possible. I trust GW enough to look at the rules and understand them in a way that keeps this from happening... and that understanding is what I've argued above.

[*Furyou Miko]

... the guard codex, so it's not a core rule any more.

[puffin]

You wrote: "Any unit embarked upon a unit that must arrive from deepstrike does not count"

Pg36 actually says: "...units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored"

 

So, I disagree; the bold section is written into the rules. Did you perhaps mean pg36 is not part of the reserve rules?

Actually, my point is that the RAW here is unclear because it forces you to do the impossible: page 36 says "When working out how many units may be placed in reserve...are ignored" which only tells you that they don't count against the calculation, not that you may then elect to place them in reserve. As I said, these rules are terribly imprecise. It's possible they do mean "any models embarked on a transport that must deep strike may always be placed in reserve along with the transport", but this is not what the words actually say.

 

However, this is just one of the many contradictions in these rules, so let's ignore RAW for a second and re-read everything with the intention of determining a process that is actually possible to play.

 

When working out how many units may be placed in reserve units embarked upon a deep striking transport are ignored

INTERPRETATION: You must have declared which units are embarked before you perform the reserves calculation otherwise this rule has no meaning.

 

A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes

INTERPRETATION: If you are allowed to keep a unit in reserve, you are also allowed to keep its dedicated transport, if it has one. Don't double count against the 50% rule! CAVEATS: The case of Must Reserve dedicated transports: does the rule work in reverse so that the unit is allowed to stay with its transport? Page 36 suggests yes, but this might be a permissive exception or a re-wording of this rule. Furthermore, what about the case where the unit is not embarked in its dedicated transport? Can one start in reserve and one not? (the rule suggests not).

 

Units that must start in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so

INTERPRETATION: You don't get to have an extra unit in reserve for each unit you have that must start there. Also, there is no wriggle room for saying flyers can start on the board because your reserves value is too low; they always start in reserve.

 

Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit, regardless of whether they have joined a unit or not

INTERPRETATION: No free passes for ICs.

 

When working out how many units may be placed in reserve units embarked upon a deep striking transport are ignored

INTERPRETATION: Choosing to embark on deep striking transports overrides the IC rule

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Therefore, we have a process that works like this:

 

1. Nominate how your units are composed with regard to ICs and transports.

2. Completely ignore any deep-striking transports and their contents - these may always start in reserve

3. Completely ignore any other units that must start in reserve - these may always start in reserve

4. Ignore Dedicated Transports - they must start in the same location as their unit (there is logically no other way to play it)

5. Sum up all remaining units and divide by 2. Round up. This value is the amount of units that may be placed in reserve.

6. Now decide which units will be placed in reserve.

 

 

 

 

 

Basically, the entire issue revolves around point 4 and I'm leaning towards the interpretation that "A dedicated transport may only be placed in reserve if the unit it is bought for is also in reserve" because otherwise you are getting a free unit in reserve that isn't accounted for in the calculation.

 

However, when you reach the situation where the dedicated transport also has the "MUST start in reserve" rule then we have an unresolved conflict: does "must reserve" override "may only reserve if the unit it is with reserves" or does "must reserve" override "the unit may only start in reserve if the 50% rule allows it". Most people are saying the latter (and I think I agree because having a "dedicated" transport that you may not even be able to start in seems a bit, well, non-dedicated!)

 

What say the board?

[BigDunc]

Therefore, we have a process that works like this:

 

1. Nominate how your units are composed with regard to ICs and transports.

2. Completely ignore any deep-striking transports and their contents - these may always start in reserve

3. Completely ignore any other units that must start in reserve - these may always start in reserve

4. Ignore Dedicated Transports - they must start in the same location as their unit (there is logically no other way to play it)

5. Sum up all remaining units and divide by 2. Round up. This value is the amount of units that may be placed in reserve.

6. Now decide which units will be placed in reserve.

 

Basically, the entire issue revolves around point 4 and I'm leaning towards the interpretation that "A dedicated transport may only be placed in reserve if the unit it is bought for is also in reserve" because otherwise you are getting a free unit in reserve that isn't accounted for in the calculation.

 

However, when you reach the situation where the dedicated transport also has the "MUST start in reserve" rule then we have an unresolved conflict: does "must reserve" override "may only reserve if the unit it is with reserves" or does "must reserve" override "the unit may only start in reserve if the 50% rule allows it". Most people are saying the latter (and I think I agree because having a "dedicated" transport that you may not even be able to start in seems a bit, well, non-dedicated!)

 

What say the board?

It's very important to understand that establishing reserve requirements and deploying units are completely separate steps. Not only is this logically required, but it is written that way! The rulebook actually does distinguish between these two steps. And those distinctions are "Preparing Reserves" pg124 and "Deployment" pg 121.

 

During the "Preparing Reserves" step (which is the 'reserve requirement step' as I've been calling it) what happens? Do I actually put units into reserve? No, no I don't; that happens during Deployment and we're not there yet. For now I'm simply "preparing" for when I do put them in reserve during Deployment. So what do I do when preparing for reserves? I create a number (ie a reserve requirement) based on the capabilities of my units and divide it by half. This number is nothing more, nothing less, than a number.

 

(It's worth pointing out the first words of the last sentence of the paragraph on pg124: "During deployment..." Wait, you mean in "Preparing Reserves" I'm not actually deploying yet? That's right, and all the language of "Preparing Reserves" supports that. Therefore, no units are actually put into reserve during "Preparing Reseves.")

 

When I get to "Deployment," pg121 (which immediately follows "Preparing Reserves"), I must consider this number as I put units onto the board and units into reserve. Units that did not count towards reserve requirements may be deployed, and units that did count towards reserve requirements may be put in reserve. Units embarked upon a must-deep strike transport for the purposes of "Preparing Reserve" may be deployed normally, including being put into reserve outside of the must-deep strike transport. The only thing that matters is deploying a number of units equal to the reserve requirement number.

 

Also, if my reserve requirement number is 5, for example, a dedicated transport fulfills 1 of these 5 required units. (To everyone: Don't be stubborn. Don't think you know what the rules say. Read the rules and read what I've written below. Your initial reaction to what I just said about DTs is wrong)

 

How is that possible? First, we are no longer "preparing reserves" therefore "a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes" does not apply. Remember, "these purposes" refers to "Preparing Reserves," not "Deployment." Second, nothing in the Deployment rules states anything even resembling "a dedicated transport does not count as a unit when deploying." That means when a dedicated transport deploys on the board it counts as a unit. Lastly, there is nothing in the Dedicated Transport rules that says the dedicated transport is not considered a unit.

 

This post of mine, puffin, may not seem to be responding to your latest post, but it is. The important distinction you're missing in your argument is the distinction between"Preparing Reserves"and "Deployment." Once you understand that distinction, look at your most recent post again and you'll see it doesn't really hold water.

 

However, when you reach the situation where the dedicated transport also has the "MUST start in reserve" rule then we have an unresolved conflict: does "must reserve" override "may only reserve if the unit it is with reserves" or does "must reserve" override "the unit may only start in reserve if the 50% rule allows it". Most people are saying the latter (and I think I agree because having a "dedicated" transport that you may not even be able to start in seems a bit, well, non-dedicated!)

There is no conflict. Dedicated transports are ignored for the purposes of "Preparing Reserves" and since units are not actually put into reserve during the "Preparing Reserves" step, then I'm not forcing the flying dedicated transport onto the table when it 'must-reserve.' In other words, the original/purchasing unit can (and must) be counted towards "Preparing Reserves" and even if this unit purchased a flying dedicated transport, there is no conflict.

 

 

I've been wrong about rule interpretations before, and when I realize that I'm wrong I acknowledge that fact. This won't be one of those situations because I'm not wrong*. Abstract thinking is what I do and as things stand right now, I'm understanding reserves exactly how they should be understood. I also have confidence that future FAQs will not change this understanding. The explanation of all this requires complexity but the ruling itself is simple: "Dedicated Transports are ignored for the purposes of 'preparing reserves.'" Everything else falls into place without explanation.

 

 

*(@ Moderators: I was wrong in a locked thread, and posted my acknowledgement of being wrong in a new thread, but that new thread was deleted. If such an acknowledgment is going to be deleted, instead of being moved into the locked thread, I would hope that this thread does not get locked so that if I am proven wrong, I'm able to acknowledge so. Acknowledging being wrong is the epitome of "cooler heads" so I would hope that Moderators approach such acknowledgements with a little more appreciation.)