Reserve Requirements and Dedicated Transports

[puffin]

When I get to "Deployment," pg121 (which immediately follows "Preparing Reserves"), I must consider this number as I put units onto the board and units into reserve. Units that did not count towards reserve requirements may be deployed, and units that did count towards reserve requirements may be put in reserve. Units embarked upon a must-deep strike transport for the purposes of "Preparing Reserve" may be deployed normally, including being put into reserve outside of the must-deep strike transport. The only thing that matters is deploying a number of units equal to the reserve requirement number.

 

Also, if my reserve requirement number is 5, for example, a dedicated transport fulfills 1 of these 5 required units. (To everyone: Don't be stubborn. Don't think you know what the rules say. Read the rules and read what I've written below. Your initial reaction to what I just said about DTs is wrong)

 

How is that possible? First, we are no longer "preparing reserves" therefore "a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes" does not apply. Remember, "these purposes" refers to "Preparing Reserves," not "Deployment." Second, nothing in the Deployment rules states anything even resembling "a dedicated transport does not count as a unit when deploying." That means when a dedicated transport deploys on the board it counts as a unit. Lastly, there is nothing in the Dedicated Transport rules that says the dedicated transport is not considered a unit.

 

BigDunc, your post makes a lot of sense, and I agree that if you played it like that it almost works. The spanner in the works, however, is Page 36 (again). It says "When working out how many units can be placed in reserve...ignore embarked units" NOT "when placing units in reserve" and definitely not "when deploying your units you may always embark models into a deep striking transport, regardless of your reserve requirement". The reason being that British English has a strong convention of synonym between "working out" and "calculating".

 

Therefore - by your process - if I elect to embark my units in a deep striking transport I must pay their reserve requirement cost (which probably results in empty pods). For page 36 to make any sense whatsoever you have to state how units are composed and embarked before calculating your reserve requirement, at which point that composition is fixed.

 

Furthermore, the entire passage on page 36 makes no sense if I am allowed to change my composition after calculating the reserve requirement because who in their right mind would ever put something in a deep striking transport for the purposes of calculating the requirement when it will reduce the amount of units I can place in reserve?.

[BigDunc]

BigDunc, your post makes a lot of sense, and I agree that if you played it like that it almost works. The spanner in the works, however, is Page 36 (again). It says "When working out how many units can be placed in reserve...ignore embarked units" NOT "when placing units in reserve" and definitely not "when deploying your units you may always embark models into a deep striking transport, regardless of your reserve requirement". The reason being that British English has a strong convention of synonym between "working out" and "calculating".

I don't really understand what you're saying here. I feel like I agree with you on the language, but I don't at all agree that pg36 gums up the works.

 

Therefore - by your process - if I elect to embark my units in a deep striking transport I must pay their reserve requirement cost (which probably results in empty pods). For page 36 to make any sense whatsoever you have to state how units are composed and embarked before calculating your reserve requirement, at which point that composition is fixed.

 

Furthermore, the entire passage on page 36 makes no sense if I am allowed to change my composition after calculating the reserve requirement because who in their right mind would ever put something in a deep striking transport for the purposes of calculating the requirement when it will reduce the amount of units I can place in reserve?

This quotation makes me think we're mis-communicating somehow. Perhaps the issue is my usage of the term 'reserve requirement.' By this term I mean "the number of units that may be placed in reserve." Preparing Reserves talks about establishing this number. But "the number of units that may be placed in reserve" can also be phrased another way and mean the exact same thing: "The number of units that must deploy on the board." So, the Preparing Reserve step is about establishing a number of units that must deploy on the table. That is why I use the term 'reserve requirement' (or sometimes, reserve restrictions).

 

When you put units into must-deep strike transports, you reduce the number of units that "must deploy on the board" and increase the number of units that "may be placed in reserve." This happens because such units are ignored when calculating the number of units that must deploy. When you ignore units, you decrease the 'count' that, when halved, reduces the number of units that must deploy on the table.

 

So what about my process, or the explanation of my process, makes you think what you think?

 

 

Lastly, I think the idea of 'commitments' during the Preparing Reserves step is a residual effect of considering that step to be part of actually deploying units, and I think that I've shown that it is not that. Preparing Reserves and Deployment are separate steps and there are no commitments made during Preparing Reserves. The only outcome of the Preparing Reserves step is a number. Nothing more, nothing less.

[puffin]

The only outcome of the Preparing Reserves step is a number. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, I agree, and Page 36 clearly says that "When working out [what that number is] ignore units embarked on deep striking transports".

 

If you're allowed to then move units out of those transports for deployment there is no sense in this rule whatsoever as your number will be lower than it would have been if the transports were empty.

 

Ergo, you declare embarkation, calculate the number, then deploy as embarked.

[BigDunc]

The only outcome of the Preparing Reserves step is a number. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, I agree, and Page 36 clearly says that "When working out [what that number is] ignore units embarked on deep striking transports".

 

If you're allowed to then move units out of those transports for deployment there is no sense in this rule whatsoever as your number will be lower than it would have been if the transports were empty.

 

Ergo, you declare embarkation, calculate the number, then deploy as embarked.

I do see room for some shenanigans when embarkation status changes. For example, a pure drop pod army declares embarkation, must deploy 0 units, puts everything in reserve except the unit are not embarked upon the drop pods. They are in reserve but walking on. This seems like it wouldn't be allowed but then again it is, because the player fulfilled his reserve requirements.

 

So I think you're right. It is safer, and makes more sense, for commitments to be made during the Preparing Reserves step.

 

The question is, does this change anything regarding flying dedicated transports? I think the answer is No, but I'm about to head across town for a game, so I'll have to think about this all more and see if there are wide ranging repercussions.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Drop pods have to be reserve so don't count for the 50%, however what of the squad the drop pods carry? Do they count as compulsory reserve or do they count towards the 50% limit?

 

Where in the rules is this made clear?

[dswanick]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=258089

[DarkGuard]

OK guys, I've just merged another to identical topics together. Can you all please search for threads before posting a question about the new 6th Ed rules. Just because it isn't on the top two pages doesn't mean it's not been asked, there's been a lot of activity on this board since release and topics move down pages quickly. Cheers.

[Cowmonaut]

BigDunc seems to have a solid grasp of the rules. I find I have to explain this every time I wish to discuss an army list I have that does a fully legal null-deployment (a topic for another thread).

 

RESERVE (page 124)

When deploying their armies, players may choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them in Reserve to arrive later.

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.

Independent Characters count as separate units regardless if they have joined another unit or not.

 

DEEP STRIKE (page 36)

When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

In addition, a unit that must arrive by Deep Strike (such as a Drop Pod) must do so even if you are playing a special mission where the Reserves special rule is not being used.

 

AERIAL SUPPORT (page 80)

Flyers must begin the game as Reserves - it takes time for a Warlord to organise and coordinate air support.

The above is paraphrased, but accurate. It means the following:

1. You can only place half (rounding up) of your Army in Reserve.
   
2. Any unit that must start the game in Reserve does not get counted.
   
3. Any Dedicated Transport for a unit that must start in Reserve does not get counted.
   
4. Independent Characters, even if they join a unit that must start in Reserve, do get counted.
   
5. Units that must enter play via Deep Strike do not get counted.
   
6. Any models embarked on any transport (dedicated or otherwise) that must enter play via Deep Strike do not get counted.
   
7. Flyers must all start the game in Reserve, and so do not get counted.
   

It is interesting to note that item 6 overrides item 4. This usually causes the most confusion. But its handy.

 

It really would have been nice of GW to include all the rules in one area. Scattered as they are, its not surprising people miss bits. They really should take a look at how Wizards of the Coast codified the rules for Magic: The Gathering.

[dswanick]

BigDunc seems to have a solid grasp of the rules. I find I have to explain this every time I wish to discuss an army list I have that does a fully legal null-deployment (a topic for another thread).

 

RESERVE (page 124)

When deploying their armies, players may choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them in Reserve to arrive later.

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.

Independent Characters count as separate units regardless if they have joined another unit or not.

 

DEEP STRIKE (page 36)

When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

In addition, a unit that must arrive by Deep Strike (such as a Drop Pod) must do so even if you are playing a special mission where the Reserves special rule is not being used.

 

AERIAL SUPPORT (page 80)

Flyers must begin the game as Reserves - it takes time for a Warlord to organise and coordinate air support.

The above is paraphrased, but accurate. It means the following:

1. You can only place half (rounding up) of your Army in Reserve.
   
2. Any unit that must start the game in Reserve does not get counted.
   
3. Any Dedicated Transport for a unit that must start in Reserve does not get counted.
   
4. Independent Characters, even if they join a unit that must start in Reserve, do get counted.
   
5. Units that must enter play via Deep Strike do not get counted.
   
6. Any models embarked on any transport (dedicated or otherwise) that must enter play via Deep Strike do not get counted.
   
7. Flyers must all start the game in Reserve, and so do not get counted.
   

It is interesting to note that item 6 overrides item 4. This usually causes the most confusion. But its handy.

 

It really would have been nice of GW to include all the rules in one area. Scattered as they are, its not surprising people miss bits. They really should take a look at how Wizards of the Coast codified the rules for Magic: The Gathering.

Problem is - nowhere in your list does it state that a unit embarked in a non-Dedicated Flyer does not count. Flyers (such as the Stormchicken) don't deploy by Deep Strike, but must begin in Reserves so the Flyer does not count against the Reserves limit, but you've posted nothing that says an embarked unit doesn't count.

[BigDunc]

Problem is - nowhere in your list does it state that a unit embarked in a non-Dedicated Flyer does not count. Flyers (such as the Stormchicken) don't deploy by Deep Strike, but must begin in Reserves so the Flyer does not count against the Reserves limit, but you've posted nothing that says an embarked unit doesn't count.

Because the embarked unit does count.

 

For those with masochistic tendencies, I've been arguing about this with Algesan on the NOVA forums.

[Cowmonaut]

Problem is - nowhere in your list does it state that a unit embarked in a non-Dedicated Flyer does not count. Flyers (such as the Stormchicken) don't deploy by Deep Strike, but must begin in Reserves so the Flyer does not count against the Reserves limit, but you've posted nothing that says an embarked unit doesn't count.

Because the embarked unit does count.

This. My list shows you the exceptions. That's it. There is no exception made for a unit on a transport that does not enter play via Deep Strike. Embarking a CCS on a Vendetta for example, you have to count the CCS against your total number of units held in Reserve. Them's the rules.

[dswanick]

Problem is - nowhere in your list does it state that a unit embarked in a non-Dedicated Flyer does not count. Flyers (such as the Stormchicken) don't deploy by Deep Strike, but must begin in Reserves so the Flyer does not count against the Reserves limit, but you've posted nothing that says an embarked unit doesn't count.

Because the embarked unit does count.

This. My list shows you the exceptions. That's it. There is no exception made for a unit on a transport that does not enter play via Deep Strike. Embarking a CCS on a Vendetta for example, you have to count the CCS against your total number of units held in Reserve. Them's the rules.

Right, gothca. It seemed like you were arguing the opposite.

[Marik]

My Understand of the rules is this

 

(x) = number of units the configuration counts as towards the formula for determining the number of units that must deploy on the table (X/2)

 

DT = Dedicated Transport

NT = Non-dedicated Transport

 

 

Vanilla Unit (1)

Unit that may elect to start in reserves (1)

Unit that may elect to Deep Strike (1)

Unit that must start in reserves (0)

Unit that must Deep Strike (0)

Unit that must start in reserves with the option to enter via Deep

Strike (0)

Unit that may elect to start in reserves but in electing to do so must arrive via Deep Strike (1)

 

Unit embarked on DT that may elect to start in reserves (1)

Unit embarked on DT that may elect to Deep Strike (1)

Unit embarked on DT that must start in reserves (1)

Unit embarked on DT that must Deep Strike (0)

Unit embarked on DT that must start in reserves with the option to enter via Deep Strike (1)

 

Unit not embarked on a DT that may elect to start in reserves (1)

Unit not embarked on a DT that may elect to Deep Strike (1)

Unit not embarked on a DT that must start in reserves (1)

Unit not embarked on a DT that must Deep Strike (1)

Unit not embarked on a DT that must start in reserves with the option to enter via Deep Strike (1)

 

Unit embarked on NT that may elect to start in reserves (2)

Unit embarked on NT that may elect to Deep Strike (2)

Unit embarked on NT that must start in reserves (1)

Unit embarked on NT that must Deep Strike (0)

Unit embarked on NT that must start in reserves with the option to enter via Deep Strike (1)

 

Unit not embarked on NT that may elect to start in reserves (2)

Unit not embarked on NT that may elect to Deep Strike (2)

Unit not embarked on NT that must start in reserves (1)

Unit not embarked on NT that must Deep Strike (1)

Unit not embarked on NT that must start in reserves with the option to enter via Deep Strike (1)

[Brother Casman]

BigDunc, you've made the assertion that the dedicated transport is ignored for determining the number of units made, and laid out your case for this interpretation here:

 

I'm basing this understanding of dedicated transports on an interpretation of "a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes." This interpretation uses the logic that in order to purchase a dedicated transport, a unit must exist in the first place to purchase that dedicated transport. If a unit and dedicated transport count as a single unit, it makes sense to base the reserve count on the original/purchasing unit and ignore the dedicated transport.

 

When you 'combine' a unit and a flying dedicated transport into a "single unit" using "a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes", what line from the rulebook allows you to choose the "must-reserve" (and a reserve count of 0) of the flyer and not the "may-reserve" (and a reserve count of 1) of the unit to determine reserve requirements? The answer, "units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" does not help you because we haven't decided whether the 'single unit' is a must-reserve unit or a may-reserve unit. Edit: (May-reserve is an option because the original/purchasing unit has not been forced or changed into a must-reserve unit.) If a rule stated that reserve restrictions were based on dedicated transports, then you'd be golden, "units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" would apply, and the 'single unit' would count as a "must-reserve" unit and it would be ignored. However, I don't think there is any such rule. So, the stronger argument in this inductive scenario is what I gave above: If a unit and dedicated transport count as a single unit, it makes sense to base the reserve count on the original/purchasing unit and ignore the dedicated transport.

 

Addition: Establishing reserve requirements happens before units are actually put into reserve. It is not impossible or contradictory for a flying 'single unit' to be considered "may-reserve," based on the original/purchasing unit, in order to determine army-wide reserve requirements. The 'single unit' counts towards reserve requirements and then when individual units are actually placed in reserve, the flyer, at least, must be placed into reserve. This is another reason why the "may-reserve" option is held open.

 

So, if I've followed you correctly, you're saying "a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit..." implies that the unit is worth 1 and the dedicated transport is worth 0, and adding 1 to 0 gives a total of 1. Makes sense and the justification you've given for your interpretation is solid.

 

Here's my problem: why is the above interpretation better than saying that the unit is worth 0 and the dedicated transport is worth 1? When I'm playing the game and making my reserve rolls, I'm told that I "... must specify if any units in reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in reserve, in which case they will arrive together." (p.124) This implies that I make one reserve roll for a unit embarked on a transport. If successful, I must then deploy the unit and transport on the table in a legal position. When I do so, I ignore the unit and place the transport. It makes more sense that I'm rolling for the transport, given that it is the model being placed on the table. So what's stopping me from extending this logic to designating the dedicated transport as the primary unit for determining how many models may be placed in reserve? I believe that it is much more consistent this way as there is now a nice symmetry between determining which models may stay in reserve and actually rolling for the reserves. Working backwards: I placed the dedicated transport model -> I rolled for the dedicated transport -> the dedicated transport is the primary unit for determining how many units may be placed in reserve. This would then suggest that a flying dedicated transport cancels out the "reserve cost" of the embarked unit, due to flyers always beginning in reserves.

 

I'm hoping this will be addressed in an FAQ.