Line of sight and fire points v. special rules

[dswanick]

Deadeye is the Vindicares version of Precision Shot.

 

OSR is an Orbital Strike Relay. Wargear that has no profile, but is a shooting attack.

So you've countered your own arguments with thses two - Precision Shot doesn't require Line Of Sight to work, it simply works on a valid shot without it's own seperate LOS check. And if OSR specifically states that it [/i]is[/i] a Shooting attack then it can be used through a Fire Point.

 

One additional question. Are we talking about the FAQ restriciton on LoS from Firepoints? If so, isn't that really invalid, as it applies to the old 5th edition rulebook? Is there a specific rule in the BRB that states special rules that require LoS can't be used from fire points?

No FAQ required at this point, as the BRB rules are very clear that only Shooting attacks and Witchfire Psychic Powers may be used through Fire Points. For anything else to work it has to have a written exception allowing it to work through Fire Points.

[Gentlemanloser]

IBEY is a shooting attack. The counter to that was you said it didn't have a profile, so couldn't be a shooting attack.

 

Using an OSR is a shooting attack, but it doesn't have a profile. The three types of munitions it can fire do.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

IBEY is a shooting attack.

No, it's a special rule that allows and out of turn shooting attack, the shooting attack is conducted after you've determined that Torq has LoS to the potential target.

[Gentlemanloser]

IBEY *is* the attack.

 

You can only attack in your enemies phase using an IBEY attack.

 

The IBEY attack doesn't have a profile of it's own, but uses the profile of the chosen weapons of the Squad.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

IBEY *is* the attack.

 

You can only attack in your enemies phase using an IBEY attack.

 

The IBEY attack doesn't have a profile of it's own, but uses the profile of the chosen weapons of the Squad.

No, it isn't.

 

Here's how it works.

 

1. Enemy arrives from Reserves within designated distance

2. Check to see if Torq has LoS to unit

3. If Torq has LoS, proceed to step 4

4. Conduct shooting attack with Torq and any unit he has joined, subject to normal rules for shooting

 

See that? First use the rule, then conduct the shooting attack, if Torq has LoS.

[Gentlemanloser]

What's the BRB definiaiton of a shooting attack then?

 

Similarly for Overwatch. Overwatch doesn't require Line of Sight to operate seperate from the Shots fired. It is entirely possible to declare that you are Overwatch shooting a charging unit, then check LOS only to find you don't have any visible enemy models.

 

Overwatch isn't a shooting attack, so can't be used form a fire point, regardless of it asking for LoS or not.

[dswanick]

IBEY *is* the attack.

Then what is the S/AP/Type of IBEY?

It doesn't have those things because it is NOT a Shooting attack. It is a special rule which allows a unit to make a Shooting attack using their weapons. It has special restrictions, one of which is that the model giving the unit the benefit of IBEY have Line Of Sight. Which can not be traced through a firing point because it is neither a Shooting Attack nor a Witchfire Psychic power.

 

Similarly for Overwatch. Overwatch doesn't require Line of Sight to operate seperate from the Shots fired. It is entirely possible to declare that you are Overwatch shooting a charging unit, then check LOS only to find you don't have any visible enemy models.

 

Overwatch isn't a shooting attack, so can't be used form a fire point, regardless of it asking for LoS or not.

Overwatch is a special rule which allows a unit to make Shooting attacks during the enemies Assault Phase - BUT IT DOESN'T REQUIRE LINE OF SIGHT TO WORK, UNLIKE I'VE BEEN EXPECTING YOU.

 

I've Been Expecting You is a special rule. Overwatch is a special rule.

I've Been Expecting You allows a unit to make an out of turn Shooting attack using the units weapons during the enemies Movement phase. Overwatch allows a unit to make an out of turn Shooting attack using the units weapons during the enemies Assault phase.

I've Been Expecting You requires Line Of Sight to the target unit in order for the unit to make the IBEY special rule's allowed Shots. Overwatch requires the unit use the Snap Fire rules in order for the unit to make the Overwatch special rule's allowed Shots.

I've Been Expecting You is not allowed to through a Fire Point because Fire Points only allow Shooting Attacks and Witchfire. Overwatch doesn't require Line Of Sight, so Fire Points are irrelevant.

I've Been Expecting You isn't a Shooting Attack. It doesn't require a To-Hit roll to work, it doesn't have a Strength value or any alternative method of determining if IBEY causes a Wound (because it doesn't Wound), IBEY doesn't have an AP value but you can't take Saves against IBEY to prevent it from affecting your unit.

It doesn't get any clearer than this. Period, full stop, cease being willfully ignorant.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sorry DS, maybe I'm not explaining myself well. ;)

 

The issue is no longer about LoS. We can throw that out, can't we? 6th doesn't mention restrictions about drawing LoS through a fire point.

 

The only restrictions are;

 

the BRB rules are very clear that only Shooting attacks and Witchfire Psychic Powers may be used through Fire Points.

 

So it doesn't matter any more that IBEY requires LoS. And that Snap Fire doesn't.

 

If IBEY can't be used, becuase it's not a shooting attack, but mearly *allows* a shooting attack (and I'd still like the BRB definition of what a shooting attack is), then snap fire/overwatch can't be used either.

 

LoS is now a non issue, and a holdover from 5th, isn't it?

[Seahawk]

No. A unit in a transport has no LoS to anything unless it is shooting out of the fire point. IBEY, in and of itself, is not a shooting attack in any way, shape, or form. Otherwise it would have a weapon profile, like every other weapon, and IBEY could be shot out of the hatch. It is a special rule that requires LoS. This game is still only permissive; it doesn't say the models inside do have LoS when in a transport, so therefore they don't. The rules for units inside transports have changed quite a bit.

[Raeven]

I would say, as long as the character with IBEY fired from the firing point in the previous turn, he can use the ability.

 

Otherwise, the fire point can only be used by one model at a time. So he couldn't step up, use IBEY, then let another model fire from the same fire point..

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I would say, as long as the character with IBEY fired from the firing point in the previous turn, he can use the ability.

 

Otherwise, the fire point can only be used by one model at a time. So he couldn't step up, use IBEY, then let another model fire from the same fire point..

The problem of course being that IBEY isn't a shooting attack, and so can't be used with a fire point.

 

Why I have to fight to convince the local GK player I don't know.

[Raeven]

Gotcha. The discussion left it a bit confusing as to whether it was a shooting attack or not.

[Brother Casman]

[snip]

 

Overwatch isn't a shooting attack, so can't be used form a fire point, regardless of it asking for LoS or not.

I just want to point out the first paragraph on pg. 80 of the BRB:

"If a Transport vehicle is assaulted, an embarked unit can fire Overwatch at the attackers out of its Fire Points..."

[nurglez]

IBEY isn't a shooting attack. It's an ability that gives you a free out of turn sequence shooting attack.

 

I'm not sure, but feel that that as they specify that fire points are used to shoot. Coteaz can't use IBEY, as he can't see the enemy unit to let his unit (or himself) shoot it.