Grey Angel

[BrotherHostower]

It's pretty clear that Loken and Iacton don't "know" anything for sure, though Loken suspects it's all gone pear shaped for Luther (in specific).

 

 

I also got the very specific impression at the end of the book that they've recruited Cypher into the Knights Errant at the end in their own way. First, when Iacton tells Loken they found something more important than their original mission (Cypher), and later, when Cypher says "Remembrance does not concern me, all of us that serve in the shadows are the unremembered"

 

 

 

What's starting to chap my ass is the lake of continuity in the timeline. Up till this, it at least seemed clear that Cypher wasn't part of the crusade force going out, and that Luther was sent home almost immediately during the Legion's first engagement with the Sarothi, and that being the case, where did they find the time to fight alongside the Luna Wolves and get to know Loken? *boggle* or is there a gap of time I'm missing somewhere here lol.

 

[amaze07]

what info on the watchers is givin??

[DIDM]

I got this, but one of the first lines pisses me off

 

 

he walks in carrying a TORCH

 

seriously? I have never used a torch ot light my may, and this is supposed to happen tens of thousands of years in the future

[marshal seanisi]

And are we to assume that was Cypher in the story??

[Brother Dimetrius]

And are we to assume that was Cypher in the story??

 

Yes, the armor design gives it away.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

It's pretty clear that Loken and Iacton don't "know" anything for sure, though Loken suspects it's all gone pear shaped for Luther (in specific).

 

Qruze says that "We have reached and understanding". He also calls Cypher kinsmen. Don't you have to "know" something to "understand" it? Cypher says that he will remain silent when asked what he will do when Loken and Qruze leaves. To me it is clear that Cypher knows about Horus and Loken / Qruze know about Luther. They were sent to Calaiban to find out the were the DA there loyalty lie. They would not leave until they found this out for sure.

[lilMAC25]

I got this, but one of the first lines pisses me off

 

 

he walks in carrying a TORCH

 

seriously? I have never used a torch ot light my may, and this is supposed to happen tens of thousands of years in the future

Don't folks in GBR call 'flashlights' "torches?"

[Brother dean]

Yes but they make clear in the audio that it actually is "fire on a stick" torch.

[A D-B]

I got this, but one of the first lines pisses me off

 

 

he walks in carrying a TORCH

 

seriously? I have never used a torch ot light my may, and this is supposed to happen tens of thousands of years in the future

 

Oh, my God. I quite literally laughed when I read that. Tell me you're joking. Do... do you even understand 40K? Are you perhaps thinking of Star Trek?

 

People in 40K also ride horses and shoot bullets, forty thousand years into the future. They write on paper, too. War is fought using Bronze Age and Great War tactics. Anachronistic is practically the settings' watchword.

 

And this is a story set on a medieval world, in the most gothic, archaic, medieval parts of said world.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sorry A D-B, I can't accept Angron wouldn't have the i-phone 6, complete with flash light app v3.4.

 

Next you'll be telling me the Fabricator General still uses Windows Vista!

[Lord Ragnarok]

I'm sorry A D-B, I can't accept Angron wouldn't have the i-phone 6, complete with flash light app v3.4.

 

Next you'll be telling me the Fabricator General still uses Windows Vista!

 

The Fabricator uses Windows 8, but only allows others to use DOS version 3.x And keeps all the data sealed for anything higher. :tu:

 

 

---------

I agree with ADB's assessment. 40k is "backwards future"

[jeremy1391]

I got this, but one of the first lines pisses me off

 

 

he walks in carrying a TORCH

 

seriously? I have never used a torch ot light my may, and this is supposed to happen tens of thousands of years in the future

 

Oh, my God. I quite literally laughed when I read that. Tell me you're joking. Do... do you even understand 40K? Are you perhaps thinking of Star Trek?

 

People in 40K also ride horses and shoot bullets, forty thousand years into the future. They write on paper, too. War is fought using Bronze Age and Great War tactics. Anachronistic is practically the settings' watchword.

 

And this is a story set on a medieval world, in the most gothic, archaic, medieval parts of said world.

 

I am coming to terms with the anachronism of the grim dark future....... and a torch is better imagery than a flashlight, mythological heroes entered the lair of a beast carrying a torch, frank the plumber uses a flash light to look under your sink. Just saying.

[A D-B]

My last reply is bugging me, as it sounds way less friendly in the context of an internet forum. It's supposed to be an informal chuckle with DIDM, who I like a bunch from his posting. Not actually accusing him of not understanding the setting.

 

More "Say whaaaat, dude?" and less "Y U NO UNDERSTAND 40K".

[Rik Lightstar]

My last reply is bugging me, as it sounds way less friendly in the context of an internet forum. It's supposed to be an informal chuckle with DIDM, who I like a bunch from his posting. Not actually accusing him of not understanding the setting.

 

More "Say whaaaat, dude?" and less "Y U NO UNDERSTAND 40K".

 

NO WAY!

 

We want you to be the unofficial arbiter of "Canonicity" (if it's not a word it should be), and your judgments shall be final, also we are all allowed to mock mercilessly anyone whose understanding of the lore is found wanting.

 

(you seem like a really laid-back guy, but I'm sure there's a tiny bit of you that wants to agree to it)

 

Rik

[DarkChaplain]

What's starting to chap my ass is the lake of continuity in the timeline.

Up till this, it at least seemed clear that Cypher wasn't part of the crusade force going out, and that Luther was sent home almost immediately during the Legion's first engagement with the Sarothi, and that being the case, where did they find the time to fight alongside the Luna Wolves and get to know Loken? *boggle* or is there a gap of time I'm missing somewhere here lol.

 

Just started reading Fallen Angels (am one of the few who really liked Descent of Angels, but never got around to reading FA, yet this is apparently Dark Angels year, with lotsa neat stories written by CZ Dunn and co, plus 6th and so on) and in the prologue it says the following:

 

Their armour was polished and unadorned; only a few bore the traces of battle scars mended during the long journey. Since leaving Caliban to join the Emperor’s Crusade they had participated in just a single campaign; few of them had seen any combat at all before receiving the order to return home.

 

One campaign, and that was Sarosh. The only mention of the Luna Wolves or Horus during Descent of Angels was in the tale of the Great Crusade Librarian Israfael told Zahariel. Nowhere else do they even get mentioned.

 

Furthermore, Zahariel sends message to the Lion and the crusading Dark Angels, asking for the Lion to allow the calibanite DA to return to the front, stating that the only real flaw with their recruitment process is the lack of actual Crusade Veterans on Caliban. The Angels on Caliban were completely aware of the fact that they lacked actual frontline experience, and asked for the chance to return to earn their own share of scars.

 

Yes, this part of Grey Angel has been bugging me a hell lot as well. Not that I'd mind having Luther and Abaddon fighting in the same campaign, but it was rather clearly stated that they had not been given any chance to get to that point.

[malika666]

I guess the previous two Dark Angels books kinda off (at least in my opinion) to have Luther only fight a single campaign with the Dark Angels during the Great Crusade. I would imagine them having fought together longer, which makes the whole abandonment stronger.

 

I assume Grey Angel's retcon kind of fixed this error?

[Rik Lightstar]

I guess the previous two Dark Angels books kinda off (at least in my opinion) to have Luther only fight a single campaign with the Dark Angels during the Great Crusade. I would imagine them having fought together longer, which makes the whole abandonment stronger.

 

I assume Grey Angel's retcon kind of fixed this error?

 

I thought that was the point of the "abandonment issues", they start the minute that old Le'J finds out there's more than just Caliban, he's got a new crusade and he doesn't NEED Luther anymore.

 

Luther KNOWS he doesn't (and possibly never will) fit into Le'J's plans for the Legion, so he sulks and starts to turn.

 

Rik

[DarkChaplain]

I guess the previous two Dark Angels books kinda off (at least in my opinion) to have Luther only fight a single campaign with the Dark Angels during the Great Crusade. I would imagine them having fought together longer, which makes the whole abandonment stronger.

 

I assume Grey Angel's retcon kind of fixed this error?

 

I thought that was the point of the "abandonment issues", they start the minute that old Le'J finds out there's more than just Caliban, he's got a new crusade and he doesn't NEED Luther anymore.

 

Luther KNOWS he doesn't (and possibly never will) fit into Le'J's plans for the Legion, so he sulks and starts to turn.

 

Rik

 

I think likewise. Luther and the Fallen were abandoned at the first possible occassion, most without any actual reason they could grasp - Luther at least felt guilty and wanted to redeem himself for his errors, but what about the rank&file Astartes that accompanied him back to Caliban?

 

The point was that the Fallen never had a chance to prove themselves, earn their scars and glories in service of the Imperium. If they had been abandoned later on during the Crusade, they could have relaxed and thought that they had their fair share of battle. The urge to get back to the front, the hurt from having been abandoned, would have been severely lessened.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I guess the previous two Dark Angels books kinda off (at least in my opinion) to have Luther only fight a single campaign with the Dark Angels during the Great Crusade. I would imagine them having fought together longer, which makes the whole abandonment stronger.

 

I assume Grey Angel's retcon kind of fixed this error?

 

I thought that was the point of the "abandonment issues", they start the minute that old Le'J finds out there's more than just Caliban, he's got a new crusade and he doesn't NEED Luther anymore.

 

Luther KNOWS he doesn't (and possibly never will) fit into Le'J's plans for the Legion, so he sulks and starts to turn.

 

Rik

 

I think likewise. Luther and the Fallen were abandoned at the first possible occassion, most without any actual reason they could grasp - Luther at least felt guilty and wanted to redeem himself for his errors, but what about the rank&file Astartes that accompanied him back to Caliban?

 

The point was that the Fallen never had a chance to prove themselves, earn their scars and glories in service of the Imperium. If they had been abandoned later on during the Crusade, they could have relaxed and thought that they had their fair share of battle. The urge to get back to the front, the hurt from having been abandoned, would have been severely lessened.

 

I feel that the Lions only failure with Luther was not explaining why he sent them back. Personally I think he was trying to leave someone in charge who could deal with the taint at the heart of Caliban, unfortunately, this was not explained to Luther

[Epistolary Exander]

I guess the previous two Dark Angels books kinda off (at least in my opinion) to have Luther only fight a single campaign with the Dark Angels during the Great Crusade. I would imagine them having fought together longer, which makes the whole abandonment stronger.

 

I assume Grey Angel's retcon kind of fixed this error?

 

I thought that was the point of the "abandonment issues", they start the minute that old Le'J finds out there's more than just Caliban, he's got a new crusade and he doesn't NEED Luther anymore.

 

Luther KNOWS he doesn't (and possibly never will) fit into Le'J's plans for the Legion, so he sulks and starts to turn.

 

Rik

 

I think likewise. Luther and the Fallen were abandoned at the first possible occassion, most without any actual reason they could grasp - Luther at least felt guilty and wanted to redeem himself for his errors, but what about the rank&file Astartes that accompanied him back to Caliban?

 

The point was that the Fallen never had a chance to prove themselves, earn their scars and glories in service of the Imperium. If they had been abandoned later on during the Crusade, they could have relaxed and thought that they had their fair share of battle. The urge to get back to the front, the hurt from having been abandoned, would have been severely lessened.

 

I feel that the Lions only failure with Luther was not explaining why he sent them back. Personally I think he was trying to leave someone in charge who could deal with the taint at the heart of Caliban, unfortunately, this was not explained to Luther

 

This is assuming that Johnson knew/ suspected that Caliban was tainted by the Warp because it housed a daemon. I think this is a bit of a stretch considering how little all the primarchs (admittedly Magnus was more because of his own ignorance) knew about the Warp back in the time when Johnson banished the Fallen to Caliban.

[malika666]

But weren't the Terran legionnaires sent to Caliban? I could imagine that the Lion kept Luther and his Caliban marines long enough in the campaign for the relevant troops to get enough experience. Then he sends Luther and the Terrans back to Caliban and lets them train the new generation of Astartes to serve under the Lion.

 

It shows that the Lion had planned this all along, but on a more pragmatical and detached scale than simply sending Luther off after the first campaign.

[Haranin]

Incorrect on several counts...

 

1. Lion had the library from the pseudo chaos knights. This contained sufficient knowledge for Luther to paint himself up with chaos symbols to block physic powers, bind greater daemons and stand up to a primarch in close combat.

 

2. Z and the Caliban marines were sent back to Caliban fast... barely a company of the several hundred marines had seen action.

 

3. The vast majority of the marines sent home were from Caliban, only two or three marines were terrans. (one libriarian, and Astelan)

[DarkChaplain]

Incorrect on several counts...

 

1. Lion had the library from the pseudo chaos knights. This contained sufficient knowledge for Luther to paint himself up with chaos symbols to block physic powers, bind greater daemons and stand up to a primarch in close combat.

 

2. Z and the Caliban marines were sent back to Caliban fast... barely a company of the several hundred marines had seen action.

 

3. The vast majority of the marines sent home were from Caliban, only two or three marines were terrans. (one libriarian, and Astelan)

 

Regarding point 3: Astelan was sent back after the initial wave. He fell from grace separately, as told in Call of the Lion, from Tales of Heresy.

[MordentHex]

Read Angels of Darkness. It will in fact also Delve deeper into the issues that surround the banishment of many marines by the Lion. Its all cannon but it gives an interesting point of view and if you dont like it just sum it up as all filthy lies by a traitor ^_^ I personally love that 40k book. It is in my top 3 of all time 40k books.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Read Angels of Darkness. It will in fact also Delve deeper into the issues that surround the banishment of many marines by the Lion. Its all cannon but it gives an interesting point of view and if you dont like it just sum it up as all filthy lies by a traitor :D I personally love that 40k book. It is in my top 3 of all time 40k books.

 

Its all lies :lol:

 

He contradicts himself enough times to prove it.

 

Personally, I think Astelan was just jealous of the Lion, he had been leading the Legion for best part of the entire Crusade, then, suddenly, he gets shoved down to a single Chapter. I think he felt upset that he was no longer in charge, that he would, could, have done a better job than el'Jonson in leading the Legion. This is what, I think, led him and el'Jonson to clash.