Dreadclaw question(s).

[Trevak Dal]

Ok, so from the new update at Forgeworld, it declares the dreadclaw to be a Flying Transport assault vehicle that can hover. Now, before I get all excited and start converting Drop pods into Dreadclaws (love the 40k stamp), I want to make sure my understanding of it's rules are clear.

 

1. They carry 10 models-but do the new (6th edition) definitions of Terminators as being 'bulky' means they take up 2 spaces similar to how they work in a Landraider right or is it like the Storm Raven where I can have 10 guys period (Khârn, Zufor and 8 of their best buddies riding feet first into hell sounds awesome.)

 

2. Movement/Usage: Whoever is deployed inside the Dreadclaw (dC from here on) starts in reserve, then the dC flies in from my table edge and I can elect to enter 'hover mode', whereby I can drop the cargo (be they angry-faced dreds, or ax-wielding maniacs) who can assault as normal (as if from a Landraider, or any other assault vehicle) The next turn after my cargo has hacked/whacked/slashed and chopped meat, they can jump back into the dC and give it another go (while in hover mode) or accelerate to full speed so they can fly off the board and try for it again right?

 

2.a: A dC with Khorne Beserkers comes in, my Rhino squad of Chaos Marines have dismounted and engaged with an enemy unit, with the Khorne Beserkers dC near them. If I have the distances/luck right, can I assault with the CSMs to take the snap fire, and hit them from behind with my Khorne Beserkers (aka "Surprise ;): ers")

 

3. (Longevity): Assuming the Gavdex+ doesn't get dreadclaws/drop pods can we still make use of them? It says a dedicated transport for a Chaos Space Marine army. I know there will be some...*sigh* squirellyness involved with Dreds (hopefully making them better and not just ws and bs 3 dust magnets) and I don't currently own any-because I don't like the idea of using something that can potentially hurt my own army...but if I had a means of dropping the crazy Boo-Box with guns into the enemy's lines-he can fire frenzy and blood rage all he wants to so long as he's not going Cheney-Mania on his own team.

 

I don't want to be that guy who has models he can't use-which is why I've been so reluctant to expand with what I got. And if I can have a hybrid air/drop list with what ground forces I have with the assault/unpredictable elements burning in...it could be nasty.

[Vesper]

The rules of the Dreadclaw were always messy. It is still overcosted money and point wise.

 

1 - Zhufor being in Terminator armor, you can't put him with Khârn and 8 berzerkers in a Dreadclaw. 9+2=11.

 

2 - That is how I read it, yes.

 

3 - Yes, the FW stuff will be available even when playing the next codex CSM.

[Sception]

Unless the dreadclaw specifically says otherwise, units cannot assault the turn they arrive from reserve, even if they're arriving in an assault vehicle. Also, unless it specifically says otherwise, bulky models take up two models' worth of transport capacity. FW models typically aren't allowed in tournaments, and require prior consent from opponents in friendly games, so depending on the disposition of your local hobby community you may or may not be able to field them. However, the new GW codex won't invalidate the FW options for chaos marines. There might be another update, but otherwise you're fine.

 

Beyond that I can't help, as I'm not otherwise up do date on the current FW rules for dreadclaws.

[Vesper]

You don't need the consent of your opponent to use FW stuff.

You had to ask, at first, when FW began its activity, but not anymore.

[Bearingtheword]

Vesper is correct. You know longer must/need to have your opponents consent as long as it has that "40k Approved" stamp in it's entry. ( Coincidentally, that's why I don't expect them added into the new codex as we already have access to them) It's still good gamesmanship though to let your opponent know and have a copy of the rules for them to look over. As for the questions asked, I think they have been pretty well answered by those above me. I am planning on adding a few to my army, but there is no way I am paying roughly $100.oo US each. I'll end up scratch building some or converting some regular drop pods into dreadclaws.

 

~BtW

[dswanick]

Vesper is correct. You know longer must/need to have your opponents consent as long as it has that "40k Approved" stamp in it's entry. ( Coincidentally, that's why I don't expect them added into the new codex as we already have access to them) It's still good gamesmanship though to let your opponent know and have a copy of the rules for them to look over.

This strikes me as an odd assertion since Forge World itself says this in regards to the "Warhammer 40,000" stamp:

"3. Warhammer 40,000 Unit: This unit is intended to

be used in 'standard' games of Warhammer 40,000,

within the usual limitations of Codex selection and

force organisation charts. As with all our models

these should be considered 'official', but owing to the

fan they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best

to make sure they are happy to play a game using

Forge Worid models before you start.", IA 11

Asking your opponent is he's happy to play a game with Forge World rules sounds suspiciously like asking permission to use them, to me. What do you do once you've "let your opponent know" and he decides that he's not interested?

[Vesper]

"Too bad, let's roll for deployment".

 

It's a more global thing. FW is legal. Just as GW. Are you happy to play against a Corteaz list ? Or to see psyrifledreads ? Nope. So here, GW failed at making the game good.

The "are you happy to play against my army, and do you think we're gonna have a great time ?" should be the mandatory question of every friendly game. So no, FW is official, no matter what.

[Bearingtheword]

Vesper is correct. You know longer must/need to have your opponents consent as long as it has that "40k Approved" stamp in it's entry. ( Coincidentally, that's why I don't expect them added into the new codex as we already have access to them) It's still good gamesmanship though to let your opponent know and have a copy of the rules for them to look over.

This strikes me as an odd assertion since Forge World itself says this in regards to the "Warhammer 40,000" stamp:

"3. Warhammer 40,000 Unit: This unit is intended to

be used in 'standard' games of Warhammer 40,000,

within the usual limitations of Codex selection and

force organisation charts. As with all our models

these should be considered 'official', but owing to the

fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best

to make sure they are happy to play a game using

Forge Worid models before you start.", IA 11

Asking your opponent is he's happy to play a game with Forge World rules sounds suspiciously like asking permission to use them, to me. What do you do once you've "let your opponent know" and he decides that he's not interested?

 

You have answered this yourself with the part above what you highlighted (the part I bolded and coloured in Blue). If someone is going to whine because you are using a "40k legal" FW model are they gonna be fun playing against anyway???

 

The part you highlighted just reiterates my point about proper sportsmanship/gamesmanship. I'd expect someone I was playing against to have their armies' codex and FW rules for their units and expect to be able to review them so I am familiar with the rules. Now granted if someone tried to use an "Apoc" stamped unit in a game, then that would go to a situation where I'd expect there to be a consensus to use it in a standard game. As an example. How fun and cinematic would it be to go up against a single titan in an engagement, or a couple-three of Baneblades....I'd be game for it.

 

 

And again Vesper has it right.

 

~BtW

[Trevak Dal]

Thank you for the insight and answers guys. I'll probably convert them-I'm getting some Drop Pod kits for a friend (belated birthday present for his Space Wolf army-he's wanting a PA/TDA Wolfguard army utilizing drop pods), and I'll likely get 2 or so for myself to convert. I want to get Zhufor and Tyberos (and some of those Space Wolf decals for my friend's christmas gift) from Forgeworld and I'm going to see if our FLGS can order them for me.

 

Nobody in my local meta has many fliers (outside of a single storm raven), the Necron guy hasn't bought anything new yet, but since I don't believe the dreadclaw has any special rules that allow the guys to assault from reserve, that means a turn flying about and hoping not to get picked off. 3 Hull points and AV12 all around is as good as a Storm raven (IIRC...) except no weapons of course...

 

Speaking of that-can fliers ram other fliers?

[*Furyou Miko]

Nope, no ramming for the flyboys. Aircraft are too manoeuvrable.

[the jeske]

unless your loyalist . they of course do get a raming one .

[Bearingtheword]

Was looking through Imperial Armour Apocalypse: Second Edition at the Dreadclaw rules as well as the 6th ed FAQ and noticed some things.

 

In the IA Apoc: 2nd Ed under type it reads as follows:

 

"Vehicle (Skimmer, Special*)

(Flyer, Hover mode in games of Apocalypse)

 

In the FAQ it lists in table form its type as:

 

"Fl, H, T" meaning Flyer, Hover, and Transport

 

In the IAA2Ed it lists it's SR's as:

 

Dreadclaw Assault, which essential stated that it enters via deep strike with it's designated cargo within.

 

Where as, in the FAQ they are listed as only having the:

 

Assault Vehicle USR, which allows troop embarked within to assault after disembarking.

 

 

SO, with the FAQ, this appears to read that Dreadclaws no longer must arrive via Deepstrike but arrive the way that Flyers do. They may then zoom across the board before going into Hover mode and disembarking their passengers which then CAN Assault via the Assault Vehicle USR. Granted this does leave them vulnerable to enemy fire for the turn they enter onto the board, but with AV 12 and Jink (when zooming) it could well be worth the risk.

 

Contrast this with the Drop Pod entry in the 6th ed Rulebook (pg411) which lists its type as O, T, which is Open Topped, Transport.

 

Basically this looks to mean that even though they look like Drop Pods, Dreadclaws are not Drop Pods but Flyers.

 

Reading further into it, if the intent of the designers was to add these changes in addition to, instead of replacing, the Dreadclaw Assault rules in IAA2Ed, the fact that we are a Flyer means that our troops do not have to disembark on the turn it arrives via Deep Strike and thus the Deep Strike rule preventing us from assaulting on the turn we arrive does not apply if they do not disembark on that specific turn.

 

Very interesting.....

 

 

~BtW

[the jeske]

SO, with the FAQ, this appears to read that Dreadclaws no longer must arrive via Deepstrike but arrive the way that Flyers do. They may then zoom across the board before going into Hover mode and disembarking their passengers which then CAN Assault via the Assault Vehicle USR. Granted this does leave them vulnerable to enemy fire for the turn they enter onto the board, but with AV 12 and Jink (when zooming) it could well be worth the risk.

doesnt realy matter. as flyers they enter from reservs , you cant charge on the turn you arrived from reservs doesnt matter if you are in an assault/open toped transport.

[dswanick]

If someone is going to whine because you are using a "40k legal" FW model are they gonna be fun playing against anyway???

And labeling someone else's concerns about an optional Expansion as "whining" sounds suspiciously like unsportsmanlike arrogance, to me.

[Orlunu]

If someone is going to whine because you are using a "40k legal" FW model are they gonna be fun playing against anyway???

And labeling someone else's concerns about an optional Expansion as "whining" sounds suspiciously like unsportsmanlike arrogance, to me.

As I read it, it's optional for the player to use FW models just like it's optional to take, for example, a Thousand Sons unit. Saying "no, your units are OP" is both whining and unsportsmanly itself, as if you lose this implies that this was because the battle was unfair and if you win it translates to "and I beat him up with one hand behind my back". His comment, if any, should be along the lines of "Fine, it won't be on the table for long anyway." I personally play a Guardsman who uses a few FW tanks; I know that my army can hardly ever put a scratch on him but I never refuse, and have had a lot of fun times trying to combat them (and when on occasion I succeed it is the best feeling I get from the game).

 

If these units were actually unfair, they wouldn't get the "approved" designation.

[dswanick]

If someone is going to whine because you are using a "40k legal" FW model are they gonna be fun playing against anyway???

And labeling someone else's concerns about an optional Expansion as "whining" sounds suspiciously like unsportsmanlike arrogance, to me.

As I read it, it's optional for the player to use FW models just like it's optional to take, for example, a Thousand Sons unit. Saying "no, your units are OP" is both whining and unsportsmanly itself, as if you lose this implies that this was because the battle was unfair and if you win it translates to "and I beat him up with one hand behind my back". His comment, if any, should be along the lines of "Fine, it won't be on the table for long anyway." I personally play a Guardsman who uses a few FW tanks; I know that my army can hardly ever put a scratch on him but I never refuse, and have had a lot of fun times trying to combat them (and when on occasion I succeed it is the best feeling I get from the game).

And some people look it as "it's optional in the same sense that playing Spearhead or Planetstrike is optional but official". If I show up to play a game of Warhammer 40,000 and am told I "have to" play a game with my opponent fielding Forge World models, I'll explain the rules of Spearhead to him and then tell him he "has to" let me play with that expansion.

If these units were actually unfair, they wouldn't get the "approved" designation.

<_< Come on, you can't be serious? Really? This is Games Workshop here - they routinely put "overpowered" as well as "utterly useless points-sink" units in their Codexes. And so does Forge World. Tell me that the Arvus Lighter or the Atlas Recover Vehicle are "balanced" (not for the opponent, but for the schmuck fielding one).

[the jeske]

If these units were actually unfair, they wouldn't get the "approved" designation.

you want to talk about a mastery 3 librarian with a +2inv save that costs less then abadon and has 6 biomancy powers?

 

Or how "approved" siege company was in the 4th ed . Or how balanced lucius pods were at the start of 5th . Or how fun it is when your opponent gets tons of units , tons of upgrades , but you happen to get nothing from FW.

 

or how FW costed the WFB chaos dwarf destroyer .high I on a MC , stomp , high WS , str lowering trait 0_o .totaly balanced.

[Seahawk]

1. 10 models, Bulky models count as 2, even in Stormravens.

 

2. No. They must start the game in Reserves, but cannot assault the turn they come into play (BRB, p.125). They first deepstrike onto the board (have to), then the next turn hover and hop out and slaughter, then the turn after that they can reboard the Dreadclaw and leave the table, for a total of 3 turns on the table

 

2.a: No, because the Dreadclaw deepstrikes, and you cannot assault the turn you arrive. If it's already on the board and you double assault, the opponent gets to choose who to Overwatch against.

 

3. You can, but only with opponent's permission as usual and as curiously debated above.

[Bearingtheword]

SO, with the FAQ, this appears to read that Dreadclaws no longer must arrive via Deepstrike but arrive the way that Flyers do. They may then zoom across the board before going into Hover mode and disembarking their passengers which then CAN Assault via the Assault Vehicle USR. Granted this does leave them vulnerable to enemy fire for the turn they enter onto the board, but with AV 12 and Jink (when zooming) it could well be worth the risk.

doesnt realy matter. as flyers they enter from reservs , you cant charge on the turn you arrived from reservs doesnt matter if you are in an assault/open toped transport.

 

 

Actually Jeske, if you read all of what I said, it is changed in the FAQ to Type: Flyer, Hover, Transport with the "Assault Vehicle" USR..... Of course, that is assuming that the FAQ replaces all of what was in the original entry. Previously it had the "DreadClaw Assault" SR, which made it come in via deepstrike, but if it is replaced with the "Assault Vehicle" then it can assault on the turn it arrives.....

 

At least that's how it reads to me. Take a moment and look at the FAQ entry and the IA Apoc 2ed entry.....you'll see what I mean....

 

 

~BtW

[Bearingtheword]

1. 10 models, Bulky models count as 2, even in Stormravens.

Correct.

 

2. No. They must start the game in Reserves, but cannot assault the turn they come into play (BRB, p.125). They first deepstrike onto the board (have to), then the next turn hover and hop out and slaughter, then the turn after that they can reboard the Dreadclaw and leave the table, for a total of 3 turns on the table

Check the FAQ, they are now a flyer with the Assault Vehicle USR, not the "Dreadclaw Assault" special rule that forced you to deepstike in and thus canceling your ability to assault in, but only on that turn. If you came in, you do not have to land it nor do you have to disembark your troops on that turn, as it is a flyer, not a drop pod, and if you don't disembark them on the turn it arrived then you can disembark them on any subsequent turn and be able to assault from it.

 

2.a: No, because the Dreadclaw deepstrikes, and you cannot assault the turn you arrive. If it's already on the board and you double assault, the opponent gets to choose who to Overwatch against.

 

3. You can, but only with opponent's permission as usual and as curiously debated above.

See above, they are perfectly legal to use if they are "40k approved" stamped, just like any other unit in other codex. Period. The whole must ask permission thing went out the window a few years back, but some of the old guard can't let go of it.

 

~BtW

[Seahawk]

Check the FAQ, they are now a flyer with the Assault Vehicle USR, not the "Dreadclaw Assault" special rule that forced you to deepstike in and thus canceling your ability to assault in, but only on that turn. If you came in, you do not have to land it nor do you have to disembark your troops on that turn, as it is a flyer, not a drop pod, and if you don't disembark them on the turn it arrived then you can disembark them on any subsequent turn and be able to assault from it.

Oops, they gone done updated it on ya ;). The FAQ is out of date as of this month with the release of Imperial Armor Aeronautica (which I have in my grubby little hands :D).

 

Its unit type is "Vehicle, Flyer, Hover", it's special rules are Assault Vehicle, Frag Assault Launchers, has a capacity of 10 models or 1 dreadnought, is a Fast Attack choice, and has:

 

Dreadclaw Assault

"If a Dreadclaw is part of the army then an eligible unit must be placed within it before the game begins. The Dreadclaw and its cargo always begin the game in reserve and enter play using the Deep Strike rules. After it has arrived, the Dreadclaw may move normally."

 

 

 

The Dreadclaw must deepstrike. There's no way around it.

 

 

See above, they are perfectly legal to use if they are "40k approved" stamped, just like any other unit in other codex. Period. The whole must ask permission thing went out the window a few years back, but some of the old guard can't let go of it.

Give or take, neither here nor there, potayto potahto. I'd prefer to use such models in pickup games too, but my opponents usually don't care for it.

[Bearingtheword]

Check the FAQ, they are now a flyer with the Assault Vehicle USR, not the "Dreadclaw Assault" special rule that forced you to deepstike in and thus canceling your ability to assault in, but only on that turn. If you came in, you do not have to land it nor do you have to disembark your troops on that turn, as it is a flyer, not a drop pod, and if you don't disembark them on the turn it arrived then you can disembark them on any subsequent turn and be able to assault from it.

Incorrect. The FAQ is out of date as of this month with the release of Imperial Armor Aeronautica (which I have in my grubby little hands :D).

 

Its unit type is "Vehicle, Flyer, Hover", it's special rules are Assault Vehicle, Frag Assault Launchers, has a capacity of 10 models or 1 dreadnought, is a Fast Attack choice, and has:

 

Dreadclaw Assault

"If a Dreadclaw is part of the army then an eligible unit must be placed within it before the game begins. The Dreadclaw and its cargo always begin the game in reserve and enter play using the Deep Strike rules. After it has arrived, the Dreadclaw may move normally."

 

 

 

The Dreadclaw must deepstrike. There's no way around it.

 

 

See above, they are perfectly legal to use if they are "40k approved" stamped, just like any other unit in other codex. Period. The whole must ask permission thing went out the window a few years back, but some of the old guard can't let go of it.

Give or take, neither here nor there, potayto potahto. I'd prefer to use such models in pickup games too, but my opponents usually don't care for it.

 

 

Ok..I stand corrected... on part of it;)

 

Still since it is a flyer...the troops embarked do not have to disembark on the turn they arrive (it's not a drop pod), so if they wait a turn then the "Deep Strike" rules expire....Meaning they only apply on the turn it deepstrikes....then in subsequent turns they can then disembark and assault via the assault vehicle usr legally.....

 

 

As to the using the FW units, I suppose it's within their purview to decline a game with you (they could for any reason really) but they are technically just as "legal" as any other unit, so you really don't have to ask any longer. It's a lingering misconception, and as I said before if they are gonna decline because you have FW units they are probably not worth playing against in the first place. It would be like them declining to play you because you used Draigo...or used Grimnar and fielded an all terminator uber army....

 

 

 

~BtW

[Seahawk]

Still since it is a flyer...the troops embarked do not have to disembark on the turn they arrive (it's not a drop pod), so if they wait a turn then the "Deep Strike" rules expire....Meaning they only apply on the turn it deepstrikes....then in subsequent turns they can then disembark and assault via the assault vehicle usr legally.....

Never said otherwise :D.

[Bearingtheword]

;)

 

 

~BtW

[hornywingythingy]

Hang on a minute, if someone after a friendly game asks you not to use fw stuff that makes them a jerk? :wallbash:

 

I don't use fw stuff myself, it seems to be either totally crap or overpowered, with no middle ground, and makes gw pricing seem balanced and well thought out (with the exception of fw epic stuff, which is weirdly just as cheap if not cheaper than gw.) now I will admit to being an older player, and I always ask my opponents permission even if I field a special character, because I'd rather have a fun game than completely trounce my opponent. As someone said above its good sportsmanship, and if you act like a jerk about it people won't play you. Simple as that....