Svrin Loth + Biomancy

[L30n1d4s]

I have been looking at this for a while now and, if forge world products are soon to be tournament legal, I think Svrin Loth (Chief Librarian of Red Scorpions from IA 9) using the Biomancy discipline might've the new Mephiston. Let me explain:

 

1 - Armor of Selket - The ability to expend a Warp Charge (he has 3) to automatically (i.e. no Psychic Test) get a 2++ for the rest of the turn is flat out outstanding.

 

2 - Characteristics - Loth is Fearless, has 3 base attacks (plus 1 more for his pistol, so really 4 base), and has standard Libby Gear such as a Psychic Hood and a Force Weapon. He also has good WS and BS and can take an Honor Guard escort. He also comes with some decent base powers from the C:SM codex, if you don't want to take a Psychic Discipline from the BGB.

 

3 - Biomancy - Based on the FAQ, Loth can roll for up to 6!!!!! Powers from Disciplines available to C:SM....if he takes Biomancy, that means he can get all of them, guaranteed. That means he can use Armor of Selket, Iron Arm, and Warp Speed on a single turn.... So,that gives him EW, a 2++ save, Fleet, and average characteristics of S6, T6, I6, and 6A (7 on the charge). The only weakness is his 2W, but with the characteristics of a Tyranid MC, EW, and the best Invul Save in the 40K universe, plus high Initiative to go first, he should be able to go head-to-head with some of the baddest dudes in the game, i.e. Draigo, Mephiston, Lysander, Swarmlord, etc. Also, if he does go down to 1 wound, he can use Life Leach and/or Endurance powers next turn to try and regenerate it.

[DarkGuard]

While I have nothing against FW, I haven't personally used it. However, that is a fantastic point, and when you consider that the Armour of Selket and the two combat buffs are blessings, your opponent cannot block them, which is just scary when he's about to get into assault.

 

Also, which FAQ are talking about? Does the IA FAQ explicitly say he can roll for all 6? Because Tiggy has all 6 powers but can only roll for 3 of them.

[L30n1d4s]

Yup, here is the link... can have 6!!!! powers... <_<

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Prod...F/p/Psykers.pdf

 

All the powers have to be from a single discipline (i.e. choose from Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telekinesis), but basically you get the entire Discipline... even Eldrad doesn't get that.

[BassWave]

That guy needs a 100+ point price increase...

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

He has the potential to be much better than Mephiston. Mephiston's biggest cons are a lack of an invulnerable save and a lack of IC status. Loth can potentially do everything Mephiston can do and in some cases do it better and he can have a 2++ and he can hide in a unit where he can no longer be singled out in CC with a Sergeant answering challenges for him.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

There was a thread somewhere around the board a few days/weeks ago that came to a similar conclusion, as I recall Idaho made mention of the fact the dude is too overpowered as is for a 40k game.

[DerekLee688]

You could give him and his honor guard a FW land raider spartan to ride in and that would make one heck of a center piece of an army.

[Axagoras]

You could give him and his honor guard a FW land raider spartan to ride in and that would make one heck of a center piece of an army.

Why a spartan, if its him and 5 guys the best one is the Achilles variant, not an assault vehicle but just as good as trolling the enemy as he is lol. Unless they have railguns ;)

[DerekLee688]

You could give him and his honor guard a FW land raider spartan to ride in and that would make one heck of a center piece of an army.

Why a spartan, if its him and 5 guys the best one is the Achilles variant, not an assault vehicle but just as good as trolling the enemy as he is lol. Unless they have railguns :)

 

Extra hull point (5 total), twice the TL-lasscannon shots, and the extra transport cap is just extra; all for +45pts over a vanilla LR? Getting the 20pt. anti-melta armor would still make it a steal. I like the vanilla LR because it can transport and act sorta like MBT. With twice the firepower and being tougher, the LR-Spartain IS a MBT. It being an Assault transport is just extra to me, an awesome extra. At the very least it knocks out the need for a combi-pred until higher point games.

 

If I'm running HG + Loft, I would like 6-7 HG. Not full unit, or minimum unit. Too bad you can't have 8 PA bodies and use the rest of the 25cap for a dread...

[Yodhrin]

With all six Biomancy powers, you needn't limit your Loth-trollery to CC; as someone pointed out to me on Dakka, Enfeeble and Hemorrhage can both be cast in the same turn at the same unit, and that could well put paid to a full squad of T3 guys in one go(reduced to T2, then forced to take a T-test, if they fail they go squish and another model within 2" has to take one, and so forth).

 

He could probably do with being upped by 50 points, but him plus HG is already a fairly spendy unit, and he's not really that much more brutal than Lysander + Sternguard or similar.

[DarkGuard]

Don't forget the fact that he'll get access to Invisibility and Hallucination, which are both good and powerful powers.

[Ricter]

Don't forget the fact that he'll get access to Invisibility and Hallucination, which are both good and powerful powers.

 

He can't take telepathy.

[DarkGuard]

Don't forget the fact that he'll get access to Invisibility and Hallucination, which are both good and powerful powers.

 

He can't take telepathy.

 

Fair enough, I just assumed he could as he's a C:SM character.

[jeremy1391]

Does warp speed counteract unwieldly from his force axe?

[DarkGuard]

Does warp speed counteract unwieldly from his force axe?

 

No. Warp Speed raises your I stat by D3, but unwieldy makes you always strike at I1. Therefore, you're I6 (for example), but striking at I1 anyway because of your weapon.

[Warsmith IV]

With all six Biomancy powers, you needn't limit your Loth-trollery to CC; as someone pointed out to me on Dakka, Enfeeble and Hemorrhage can both be cast in the same turn at the same unit, and that could well put paid to a full squad of T3 guys in one go(reduced to T2, then forced to take a T-test, if they fail they go squish and another model within 2" has to take one, and so forth).

 

He could probably do with being upped by 50 points, but him plus HG is already a fairly spendy unit, and he's not really that much more brutal than Lysander + Sternguard or similar.

 

Characteristic tests are always taken on your base stats from your profile - enfeeble won't make it any easier to fail a toughness test. Also, what with Deny the Witch (I know it's rare, but it happens) blessings are the way to go with psychic powers for me.

[Yodhrin]

With all six Biomancy powers, you needn't limit your Loth-trollery to CC; as someone pointed out to me on Dakka, Enfeeble and Hemorrhage can both be cast in the same turn at the same unit, and that could well put paid to a full squad of T3 guys in one go(reduced to T2, then forced to take a T-test, if they fail they go squish and another model within 2" has to take one, and so forth).

 

He could probably do with being upped by 50 points, but him plus HG is already a fairly spendy unit, and he's not really that much more brutal than Lysander + Sternguard or similar.

 

Characteristic tests are always taken on your base stats from your profile - enfeeble won't make it any easier to fail a toughness test. Also, what with Deny the Witch (I know it's rare, but it happens) blessings are the way to go with psychic powers for me.

 

Erm, I don't play that often so I may be wrong but, since when? Leadership tests use a modified characteristic where relevant, so if a psychic power reduces Toughness for the remainder of the turn, surely it would work just as if some ability had reduced the target unit's Leadership for the remainder of the turn.

 

Reading the specific entry in the 6th Ed rulebook, it refers to "the relevant characteristic in the model's profile", but it doesn't state you use the unmodified basic characteristic. The wording of Enfeeble states "...the target unit suffers a -1 penalty to Strength and Toughness..", meaning that for the duration of the power, the target unit's profile has been changed. For all intents and purposes, if you cast Enfeeble on, say, a Marine, they're now Str and T 3.

 

Unless I'm missing some specific wording that states you always take Characteristic tests at the base value.

[Warsmith IV]

With all six Biomancy powers, you needn't limit your Loth-trollery to CC; as someone pointed out to me on Dakka, Enfeeble and Hemorrhage can both be cast in the same turn at the same unit, and that could well put paid to a full squad of T3 guys in one go(reduced to T2, then forced to take a T-test, if they fail they go squish and another model within 2" has to take one, and so forth).

 

He could probably do with being upped by 50 points, but him plus HG is already a fairly spendy unit, and he's not really that much more brutal than Lysander + Sternguard or similar.

 

Characteristic tests are always taken on your base stats from your profile - enfeeble won't make it any easier to fail a toughness test. Also, what with Deny the Witch (I know it's rare, but it happens) blessings are the way to go with psychic powers for me.

 

Erm, I don't play that often so I may be wrong but, since when? Leadership tests use a modified characteristic where relevant, so if a psychic power reduces Toughness for the remainder of the turn, surely it would work just as if some ability had reduced the target unit's Leadership for the remainder of the turn.

 

Reading the specific entry in the 6th Ed rulebook, it refers to "the relevant characteristic in the model's profile", but it doesn't state you use the unmodified basic characteristic. The wording of Enfeeble states "...the target unit suffers a -1 penalty to Strength and Toughness..", meaning that for the duration of the power, the target unit's profile has been changed. For all intents and purposes, if you cast Enfeeble on, say, a Marine, they're now Str and T 3.

 

Unless I'm missing some specific wording that states you always take Characteristic tests at the base value.

 

Modifiers never change the profile - they modify it, hence the name. Characteristic tests specifically state that you compare the roll to the number in the model's profile, and there is never any mention of modifiers. Leadership tests, on the other hand, are subject to specific rules that a unit, for example, must take a Leadership test with a -1 modifier for every wound it lost combat by. They are worthy of a specific mention (Morale Check modifiers in the Morale section), and so can be donsidered the exception to the rule. If it was necessarily to specifically mention modifiers for morale tests, it would therefore be equally necessary to mentiuon them for characteristic tests in general.

 

Edit: OK, I realise "they modify but don't change" is a bad way to explain it, but at the end of the day a model's characteristics cannot be changed in game, only counted as higher or lower.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

In point of fact, Warsmith, characteristics CAN be changed in game. I point you to rad grenades, which lower the target's Toughness so that the modified Toughness value is used for calculating ID requirements. So far as I'm concerned, this sets a precedent.

[Warsmith IV]

In point of fact, Warsmith, characteristics CAN be changed in game. I point you to rad grenades, which lower the target's Toughness so that the modified Toughness value is used for calculating ID requirements. So far as I'm concerned, this sets a precedent.

 

An exception does not disprove the rule is the exception must be specifically stated. Rad grenades specifically state they affect Instant Death theshold - ergo other modifiers that do not state this do not lower Instant Death threshold. Likewise if a modifier specifically states it affects characteristics tests, they obviously do (as in the case of Morale). If they do not state this, they do not affect characteristic tests.

 

So I concede there is a precedent, and who knows, there may well be a rule/wargear/power thatuses this precedent and specifically states a modifier that affects characteristic tests. For now, there is none I know of.

[DarkGuard]

Perhaps you guys might want to start a thread in OR about this and we can get back to discussing Loth and Biomancy? :P