Pacific81 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Hey guys, Has been some years since I last posted on the forum! I've not long finished a Pre-Heresy force, in the form of a World Eater army, but have felt it is time to try and do something a bit different. With Forge World range of models now being produced of the old armour marks, and the Horus Heresy series in full swing (and correspondingly with the amount of mystery gradually being eroded) it has meant that the amount of space for imaginative discussion and modelling has got much smaller than it was even 3-4 years ago. So, I've been thinking about a period in 40k history that is still very much clouded in myth and legend, that has only been touched upon briefly by the Horus Heresy book series, yet remains a really evocative and intriguing prospect for fans of the Astartes and 40k in general. So the purpose of this thread is at once a discussion of all things Unification Wars - in terms of imagining and modelling them, but also suggestions of how to re-create their presence on the tabletop. I've just begun modelling some of my own as a bit of a project, so will post those also to both give others ideas, but also to get feedback on how others might imagine them to be. For anyone who hasn't read about the wars of unification, and wants some background on it, there is a wiki page which is (mostly) correct: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Unification_Wars So first of all, and most importantly, what is the difference between a Thunder Warrior and their successor, the Astartes of the Great Crusade? I read this on another forum, and think it sums it up admirably: I'd imagine the Thunder Warriors' formations would have simply been numbered, simply armed and armoured with undecorated weaponry. The Emperor presumably knew they were a stop-gap measure, fit for purpose; and the ethos of the era was very much technobarbarian. I don't see the Thunder Warriors as orderly, well-drilled or tightly-organised compared to the Legions – in fact, it's as roaming, faceless and merciless monsters, steaming in the mist; clad in steel and grimy furs and leathers that they appear in my mind's eye. The Astartes were a perfected army for Crusade: propaganda and morale-boosters. They must have been and intended to awe the human diaspora and bring humanity together. In contrast, the Thunder Warriors were brutes – smashing the Terran barbarians to the floor and then grinding their faces under their boots in a wave of sweat, blood and piss: a brutal force for a more brutal and more desperate time. So first of all I'd be really interested to see if anyone else has attempted their own Unification-Era Proto marines?! And if so how they would imagine them to be? Sources are very limited, with the Outcast Dead, and the now very dated 1st edition 'formative armour' article giving some information. This means that there is a lot of grey area.. and less of people talking in a Mr. Bean-esque voice.. "actually, I believe you will find that the mk6 only came in after that date..! :P In terms of concept, I imagine them to be very much as described in the quote above; brutal killers, with a lack of ornamentation and utilitarian in their aspect. In some ways, I think this goes back to the very first conception of Space Marines, and I think it's neat how the Rogue Trader-era background has been inserted sideways into this part of the background. Anyone who knows of the Dune series of books will be familiar with the concept of the Sardakur, the most fearsome fighting force in the galaxy (at least for a time.. ), and I can imagine the Thunder Warriors being very similar in terms of how they are created and trained. Again perhaps similar to the general Astartes, in that you select the toughest individuals, those for whom fighting for survival is a part of daily life, and then you train them and give them a gun. Except the Thunder Warriors come without the veneer of civility that seems to have been applied to (most) of the Astartes - they are brutal killers, murderers even, without an ounce of mercy given to their opponents. As was described in the one official short story on the subject (in Tales of Heresy perhaps?), the Proto-Astartes were 'unleashed' on their fearful opponents, and there could only ever really be one outcome! So in conclusion, I want to be able to model something that conveys that aspect. I want to keep away from the clean, uniform styles of a 41st millenium space marine, and do something far more gritty. As has been noted, the Thunder Warriors haven't had time to form a reverence for their equipment, although in the courses of their campaigns they may have accrued battle honours and elements of individuality, as is the case for any fighting unit that has fought together for any amount of time. So what are people's thoughts on the Proto-Astartes, and the Unification Wars, and how do you imagine them to be? I will post some pics in some point of some models I'm working on, and my own conception, but I'd be very interested to see what people's thoughts are. Perhaps, even if there is a 'market' for this kind of niche within 40k, and that it has the potential to grow in the same way as the 'Great Crusade/Horus Heresy' once did? Thanks for reading if you got this far! :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dimetrius Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 (I'm an idiot, disregard.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3141244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ale0x Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Fantasy Chaos barbarian bits! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3141287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Personally I think the Thunder Warriors represent the limits, at the time, of what could be done to enhance men on mass. Astartes are far more complex and as we know work better when recruited as children. Functionally they are probably identical to SM in 40k terms. You would have to get to the level of detail for an RPG to see any real differences. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3141711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Well part of the deciscion that must be made is if we go with the Thunder Warriors as presented in the Collected Visions, White Dwarf Articles, and other sources or their recently retconned description in The Outcast Dead. I am not overly fond of the recently put forth idea that the Thunder Warriors were disposable, short lived super warriors superior to the Legionnaires that came later. Prior to the Outcast Dead these gene enhanced warriors served as the prototypes of the Legions and were folded into/served as the veteran core of the nascent earthbased Astartes Legions. Examples of the enhancements these warriors received carried on with the older warriors that served under primarchs, such as Luther, Kor Phaeron, or the mortal bodyguards of Leman Russ. I prefer this vision of the proto-marines, warriors continuing to loyally serve the Emperor amongst the stars and simply dying out due to being supplanted by "newer models" of full Astartes who carried on their values (for a time) and whose gene enhancements continued to used on select mortals (see again: Luther/ Kor Phaeron) who warranted it. Rough and crude but still very deadly. As for representing them on the tabletop, visually going for a "Techno-Barbarian" feel would be good. Any old MK1 armor would look great. Mixing Scout models, Catachan bits, or old Necromunda Goliath Gangers combine with various Warhammer fantasy armor bits could work nicely. Perhaps the reverse, using Warhammer fantasy models with marine shoulder pads and bolters. Rogue trader sprues huzzah haha. They certainly need to have traces of advanced armor. It was one of the things that set them apart from their enemies. The Thunder Warriors would still be united visually. They still had standard armor and weapons as a baseline, even if they carried an ecletic array of death weapons in addition. In addition, they still maintained unit cohesion and were organized into Legions (I think, I would have to reread Collected Visions) so having unit markings and colors would be essential. Using big ol banners for them would be good, like Space Marine Sergeants backpoles, Company Banners (2nd edition models), or the more recent Imperial Guard ones. It would keep their "feudal warrior in space" feel. They may lack ornamentation of their armor, but they still proudly displayed who they were and who they fought for. One key thing: The Lightning Bolt of the Emperor. His Unification War symbology should be in effect in place of aquilla. Shoulder pads, legs, or belt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3142443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knights of the Emperor Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I'd be inclined to look at it from a Fallout perspective (I can only say 3 or 4 because I've not played the earlier ones). Irregular gear, that which they do have is crude, the people are hard as ****ing nails. The proto-astartes are basically like any of the gangs in there, they just have the most badass leader imaginable who has managed to form them into a bit more of a cohesive unit than the other raging barbarians out there. So crude armour and weapons, with the lightning bolts on their greaves. Also I think it was in the Tales of Heresy, they were very melee oriented, hence the majority of the power from the power armour going to the chest and arms rather than the legs. But I'd love to see an army of them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3143099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Carmine Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Outcast Dead I think actually represents the Thunder Warriors brilliantly. They are depicted as incredibly powerful warriors, capable of amazing feats of strength and endurance and who conquered the planet in the Emperors name. However the technology used to create them is imperfect and they are 'retired' in favour of the new improved Astartes who are one on one individually less powerful, but are a more stable refinement of the gene-hanced super soldier. Physically on the desktop I would take a leaf out of greatcrusade08's scout designs, using power armour torsos on scout legs, then you can use catachan arms to emphasise how powerfully built these warriors were. If you smooth down the torsos you will have a nice flat surface to freehand lightning bolts and eagles on. Last Church describes them as being equipped with Bolters, Flamers and Chainswords so I would build them with a mix of your typical Tactical Marine equipment and then add big banners like Ubermensch suggested. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3143114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I think the argument about Thunder Warriors and Astartes is actually a slight mis comparison. For me, it should be a comparison between The Primarchs, the Custodes and the Thunder Warriors. From what we have seen, the Thunder Warriors were more a "warband" of incredibly powerful warriors, who were loyal to the Emperor but did not fight in any sort of formation pattern that would be similar to the later Legions. Saying the Astartes replaced the Thunder Warriors is wrong, they each had thier own specialised tasks, the TW to conquer Terra for the Emperor (important point here) and the Astartes to re-conquer the Galaxy for the Imperium. Therefore, I think a more fair comparison should be between the Primarchs and the Custodes with the TW's, since they were individuals of great power loyal to the Emperor. They did as he asked, and had no other mission other than that. Excuse the rambling, but hopefully you can try and understand what I am trying to get at.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3143184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Id like to know what happened to these guys http://www.google.com/imgres?start=21&...,r:26,s:21,i:87 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3143302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Yes those are amazing! Thanks a lot for the comments guys, I always think it is interesting having a discussion about something we don't know a lot about, other than the odd tantalising snippet. In fact, pretty similar to the early days of the Pre-Heresy discussion! :) I think it will be quite difficult to make a balance of 'post-apocalypse', while at the same time something that is recognisably part of the 40k universe. The barbarian, mixed with the regimented super-soldier. High tech weaponry, mixed with a dirty, industrial look. The clean 'secular' look, following the Emperor's ethos, contrasted with the soldier's propensity to collected totems and other experience markings. I think there are a lot of 'balances' to take account of, and how far it goes in each direction is very much open to interpretation! I could quite easily imagine something akin to a bad guy from Max Max, or Fist of the North Star for instance, but John Blanch's artwork makes them look 90% towards an Astartes. I've started to work on a model, using a mix of components from a bits maker (called 'Anvil Industries', and specifically their 'Steam Lord' range), green stuff, and bits and pieces from my bits box. This thread isn't about the modelling aspects specifically, but perhaps it might be some use of conceptualising the Thunder Warriors (beyond words on paper) and also for others to follow if they feel inclined. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! :) Stage 1: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Pacific81/Models%20stuff/WIP1.jpg A mix of chainmail and plate armour. I'm trying to make a powerful, industrial looking design. There is an old bit of background in the 'Formative Article' (back in the 1st edition Compilation) which mentioned them having powered upper bodies only, but I've chosen to ignore it on the grounds that whoever wrote that article back then obviously hadn't given much thought to the engineering principles.. :tu: Stage2: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Pacific81/Models%20stuff/WIP2.jpg This is just the basic frame of the Thunder Warrior, with a small bit of detailing added. I've also added the backpack. I played around a lot with different styles, specifically with larger back-packs. Graham McNeil's 'The Last Church' describes the back-packs as great generators belching out steam. Also, it seems counter-intuitive for the backpack to be smaller than later, Great-Crusade equivalents. However, this was tempered by the desire to go for a more conducive overall aesthetic - I didn't want the backpack to dominate the model and make him appear unwieldy. Also, you could make the argument that the armour systems of the Proto-Astartes were far less advanced than those found in power armour - no environmental systems, smaller armour perhaps, and less complex. Anyway, it's something I might change in future models! Stage 3: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Pacific81/Models%20stuff/WIP3.jpg I added some more studs to his front plate. Hid midriff was also looking a bit sparse, so I put on a couple of belt clips, some grenades and some shell-type things. He has been 'accessorised' :) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Pacific81/Models%20stuff/WIP4.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Pacific81/Models%20stuff/WIP5.jpg The Wolf pelt is a mix of Space Wolf bits and green stuff. You can't see it well, but there is another paw hanging down his back. I wanted the pose to be something like you see in the 'Forge World' book of the various troopers - standing at ease. If (when?) I make some more, I want to make a more aggressive pose to fit the character of the Thunder Warrior! Finally, a size comparison shot: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Pacific81/WIP6.jpg It's difficult to pin down how large the Thunder Warriors were. The characters in 'The Outcast Dead' (Babu and Ghota) are massive, but they were leaders and was their size reflective of all proto-Astartes? Again, I think it's difficult to get a balance. On the one hand, we could be presented that they were fit for purpose - created by the Emperor specifically to smash aside any resistance and unite Terra, but they had no future beyond that. "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long", to use a phrase from Blade Runner - so perhaps they were all bigger and stronger than a regular Astartes? In the end, I chose somewhere in-between. Babu and Ghota were exceptional examples of the breed, and physically impressive - the standard 'Thunder Warrior' might perhaps be a bit smaller. So, this model (after accounting for the raised base) is about half a head taller, and a little wider than a normal marine. Any comments greatly appreciated! Is this how you would imagine the Thunder Warrior to be, or would it be different in some way? Obviously he needs a lick of paint next, so then that is going to need another bit of imagination to determine what colours they would have carried. But, I'm thinking a dirty and industrial-looking paint job, with some more lightning-strikes (the Unification Wars symbol) and perhaps kill markings/slogans to make a more post-apocalyptic look? I'm also starting to think now about representation of these guys on the tabletop! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3143956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bongfu Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Awesome! Definitely one of the coolest ideas I have seen in a while Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3144617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Carmine Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 He looks fantastic Pacific81! I love that Bolter, is it one of the Anvil Industries components you used? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3144678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 That is really nice, may try something similar to use as scouts for my heresy era Salamanders, looking forward to seing mor of these guys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3147023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 A couple of thoughts: 1. I wouldn't think of the people of this era as 'barbarians' in the typical sense, more in the original 'not roman' use of the term. They don't follow the Emperor's ideal of unification, but otherwise they're pretty advanced. They have armies, power armour to match that of the Thunder Warriors, the one thing they don't have is the Emperor's gene enhancement tech. 2. In terms of organisation, the Thunder Warriors probably mirrored the Imperial Army more than marine chapters or barbarian warbands. They're described as being the elite of a massive army, and massive armies take pretty serious command structures to direct them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3149729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertsjf Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Any comments greatly appreciated That's a beautiful figure. But for a Thunder Warrior: Mirror Shades Fail. Slap some goggles on that guy! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258274-discussion-of-the-unification-wars-the-proto-astartes/#findComment-3149799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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