Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Now that Vanguard can pre-measure to make sure they are within range of their prey, what is the optimal loadout now for vanguard vets? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Pre-measure yes but you can still fail the charge (& you don't have the re-roll your jump pack gives you iirc since they use their jump packs to do the Heroic Intervention), although it's not that likely if you're sensible - as you'll know if you used them in 5th ed. As for load out, that depends on your list but I'd only ever consider; 5 VV - Jump Packs - Meltabombs x 4 185pts They get expensive too quickly for me & this unit is kinda cheap enough to send in after a vehicle you really need taking out. Plus they can be used to shut down backfield heavy weapons infantry too if that's more of an issue. Some players lose it when you plop stuff down in their deployment zone & take out one of their prized models, it can often lead to errors on their part, though in my experience VV often don't last long. So, if you start tooling them up (I think) they get way too expensive for what they are. Plus, at the end of the day they're still only marine stats (with an extra attack) so aren't great at handling deathstars etc. - Dallas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadron Ka'sel Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Pre-measure yes but you can still fail the charge (& you don't have the re-roll your jump pack gives you iirc since they use their jump packs to do the Heroic Intervention), although it's not that likely if you're sensible - as you'll know if you used them in 5th ed. As for load out, that depends on your list but I'd only ever consider; 5 VV - Jump Packs - Meltabombs x 4 185pts They get expensive too quickly for me & this unit is kinda cheap enough to send in after a vehicle you really need taking out. Plus they can be used to shut down backfield heavy weapons infantry too if that's more of an issue. Some players lose it when you plop stuff down in their deployment zone & take out one of their prized models, it can often lead to errors on their part, though in my experience VV often don't last long. So, if you start tooling them up (I think) they get way too expensive for what they are. Plus, at the end of the day they're still only marine stats (with an extra attack) so aren't great at handling deathstars etc. - Dallas bare in mind that for 15 points more you can get sang guard. You loose Heroic intervention but gain better ranged weapons for free, master crafted power swords and artificer armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 bare in mind that for 15 points more you can get sang guard. You loose Heroic intervention but gain better ranged weapons for free, master crafted power swords and artificer armour. My problem with the SG is twofold 1) I did a full SG army in 5th ed and have got a bit bored with them. 2) I'm really liking 10 man squads for my 8th company list as they do seem to live longer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Pre-measure yes but you can still fail the charge (& you don't have the re-roll your jump pack gives you iirc since they use their jump packs to do the Heroic Intervention), although it's not that likely if you're sensible - as you'll know if you used them in 5th ed. As for load out, that depends on your list but I'd only ever consider; 5 VV - Jump Packs - Meltabombs x 4 185pts They get expensive too quickly for me & this unit is kinda cheap enough to send in after a vehicle you really need taking out. Plus they can be used to shut down backfield heavy weapons infantry too if that's more of an issue. Some players lose it when you plop stuff down in their deployment zone & take out one of their prized models, it can often lead to errors on their part, though in my experience VV often don't last long. So, if you start tooling them up (I think) they get way too expensive for what they are. Plus, at the end of the day they're still only marine stats (with an extra attack) so aren't great at handling deathstars etc. - Dallas bare in mind that for 15 points more you can get sang guard. You loose Heroic intervention but gain better ranged weapons for free, master crafted power swords and artificer armour. Yes, but please bare in mind the OP asked for loadouts on VV, he didn't ask, "what units are a sumilar cost / an alternative". IMO Sang Guard & VV are two very different units. Point for point the SG are deffo better at beating stuff up, though I haven't used them in 6th yet because of the power weapon nurf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 2) I'm really liking 10 man squads for my 8th company list as they do seem to live longer. Buy 10 so you can run them as a 10 man squad in some games but split them into 2 x 5 man units as & when you see fit (suicide strikes)? - Dallas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 As a disruption Unit I really like the VV-- I tried them out yesterday and they had great results against Long Fangs entrenched behind AegisLines manning a quadgun. Vanguards dropped in behind the cover and had clear charge--- dodged the overwatching krak missiles and killed them over 3 assault phases, taking 2 casualties. Although I figure 9 times out of 10 they're going to be disposable but hopefully solve a problem for you before they die. SO as with all sacrifice-units, cheaper the better. 4x Meltabomb and call it done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 As a disruption Unit I really like the VV-- I tried them out yesterday and they had great results against Long Fangs entrenched behind AegisLines manning a quadgun. Vanguards dropped in behind the cover and had clear charge--- dodged the overwatching krak missiles and killed them over 3 assault phases, taking 2 casualties. Although I figure 9 times out of 10 they're going to be disposable but hopefully solve a problem for you before they die. SO as with all sacrifice-units, cheaper the better. 4x Meltabomb and call it done. Not even a powerfist or two? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Not even a powerfist or two? Nope. Meltabombs are better now that vehicles are hit at worst on a 3+ plus they're way cheaper! - Dallas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 but what about for attacking units like long fangs or devs etc ? Surely you want a special weapon there? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 but what about for attacking units like long fangs or devs etc ? Surely you want a special weapon there? Ehh, I was originally torn over that. I think the fact that the Sgt comes with a 'free' (ie included in cost) Power Swor....um I mean Axe. Take the Axe. haha I think the Power Axe is sufficient to handle the Long Fangs. Its tough because their Counter-Attack gives them 18 attacks against your 20-- when I playtested it, I was nervous about those odds because poor dice (or if he gets hot on his overwatch) then you can get in trouble quickly. But versus 'normal' Devastators they have no chance-- VV just mop 'em up. Edit: 14 Attacks vs your 20. Sorry typo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3141858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oka Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Pre-measure yes but you can still fail the charge (& you don't have the re-roll your jump pack gives you iirc since they use their jump packs to do the Heroic Intervention), although it's not that likely if you're sensible - as you'll know if you used them in 5th ed. As for load out, that depends on your list but I'd only ever consider; 5 VV - Jump Packs - Meltabombs x 4 185pts They get expensive too quickly for me & this unit is kinda cheap enough to send in after a vehicle you really need taking out. Plus they can be used to shut down backfield heavy weapons infantry too if that's more of an issue. Some players lose it when you plop stuff down in their deployment zone & take out one of their prized models, it can often lead to errors on their part, though in my experience VV often don't last long. So, if you start tooling them up (I think) they get way too expensive for what they are. Plus, at the end of the day they're still only marine stats (with an extra attack) so aren't great at handling deathstars etc. - Dallas For those pts, id rather go for a fist/hammer , and maybe 1 or m-bombs, try the math, its the same vs Armoured but gains some melle advantage Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3142072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 For those pts, id rather go for a fist/hammer , and maybe 1 or m-bombs, try the math, its the same vs Armoured but gains some melle advantage But then you lose ability to multi-charge vehicles--- very important versus IG, certain Necron builds, and the dwindling Razorspams. 4 MBs means you can slap 2 each on 2 vehicles, if they are side-by-side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3142077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I go with naked (including mandatory powerweapon on sarge) + meltabombs as well. Been using a power lance for the weapon, but thinking of going maul for the 4 str 6 on the charge vs rear armor (7 if FC) Axe is nice for AP2 though if you get 6's to pen Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3142101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I would strongly recommend at least one extra power sword due to possibility of challenges. And I would never take the meltabombs for VV because I wouldn't want them popping a vehicle and ending up "on the open" after the turn they arrive - rather have them locked in combat with some ranged infantry squad the opponent is keeping in the rear/side of his forces "safe". BA has enough of other, cheaper and more efficient gear to take out vehicles (such as dropping regular assault squad with meltaguns, dreadnought with multimelta in a pod, good old ranged units etc.). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3142116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I don't agree there are cheaper/better anti- AV units in the BA army. The closest comparision would be 4 MM Bikes for 200 points, which still have to get within 12" and are subject to cover saves. VV melta isn't subject to cover, auto-hits on stationary. They penetrate to the back of the board easier and can double duty vs shooty infantry. They're a good toolbox unit for something sub 200 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3142162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 If you run a drop pod at all, that locator beacon from the pod can be used to bring VV down very reliable second turn. Have not done this yet but I'm looking to tool up a VV squad to come in and suport a furioso or a sternguard from the pod. I have not got them all built and painted yet but I'm thnking that a storm shield on the Sgt, and the free lightning claw plus one PW and 4 MB would be nice, its 220 but can deal with troops and AV effectively and barring a mishap (which is more forgiving now) or a bad charge roll, they can threaten any part of the enemy army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3142297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Melta bombs for their cost are sick, as Citadel pointed out getting a multi charge off on two vehicles is great and not that hard against parking lots. The Sergeant comes with a power weapon, more than enough to kill other Sergeants in a challenge. Coming in off a Locator Beacon is great, I might try 6 of these to support my Drop Pod plasma Sternguard. - Dallas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3142461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Yah, that was my plan too actually Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3143474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Ok I have now playtested a 5-man Vanguard Vet squad, completely naked (165pts) with Power Axe in 5 games. Game 1: Charged 6x Long Fangs manning quadgun. Killed them over course 3 combats, losing 2. Charged 2nd Long Fang squad (attritted to 3 left) and killed them too. Game 2: Charged IG Heavy Weapons Team (3x Lascannon). Killed them on charge, no casualties. Kept fighting well into game. Game 3: Charged Hive Guard sitting on a skyfire mysterious objective. Tied them up from shooting my Stormraven. VV die from a countercharge but the Raven delivers contents safely which went far to aid winning that game. Game 4: Scattered 6" directly away from target. 10x man IG squad overwatched 2 casualties. Failed charge by 1" (overwatch only reason I failed).... shot to death next round. Game 5: Charged a Tactical squad from the rear while a Regular Assault squad charged from the front-- wiped that unit, kept fighting rest of game side-by-side. So far, they have a decent track record. They truly seem to pair extremely well with a Stormraven, since they have been super useful to tie-up any enemy units who have skyfire, or can get rerolls to-hit (That 3x IG Lascannons were in range of a Commander's "Bring It Down" so I was happy to kill 'em). That one failed charge was because there simply wasn't a better unit to go after-- If operating alone, don't go after an enemy unit larger than 5 or 6 models. Advice is to only drop them against 'big' targets if you have another helper-unit charging in with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3144556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Thanks for that CitadelArmyGuy. I'm using them on Sat & Sun so I'll post up my experience(s) too. Don't you fancy giving them a few Meltabombs & maybe a Lightning Claw? Also, how did the Power Axe do? I'd take one but I'm scared of getting challenged & killed before Initiative step 1. Thoughts? - Dallas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3144779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Legionnare Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 If I have the points and see lots of heavy weapons I go for a 10 man combat-squaded. The drop podw/beacon that comes in first turn with my Furioso usually sets the stage for them to no-scatter, Heroic Intervention, then assault out towards nearby ranged units. Naked with a powerfist on the sergeant has done me WONDERS for tying up big guns for a turn of two so the more hardy and numerous forces can get close. Don't forget the no-scatter Land raider that comes in that turn or the next with DC in it, tying up nearby meltagun squads with VV allow it to survive to pop out it's killy cargo and wreak havoc. Vanguard Veterans are best used as a scalpel to cut at the enemies heavy weapons surgically. (read: to tarpit) Or that's how I use them to STELLAR effect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3145203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Thats how I would use them as well. Drop in to remove those long-range heavy shooters sitting in the back of the deployment zone where you can't get to them. One could say, VVs were designed for that task, at least in my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3145269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Thanks for that CitadelArmyGuy. I'm using them on Sat & Sun so I'll post up my experience(s) too. Don't you fancy giving them a few Meltabombs & maybe a Lightning Claw? Also, how did the Power Axe do? I'd take one but I'm scared of getting challenged & killed before Initiative step 1. Thoughts? - Dallas The Axe has been performing really well, but only versus the types of targets they've been matched up against. The closest fight was against the Long Fangs, but I did not issue a challenge and the opposing Pack Leader didn't issue one either so I breathed a sigh of relief there. Pack Leader does happen to be the "scariest" thing that the VV Sgt might have to fight in challenge on a normal basis. PackLeader with Counter-Attack, so 4 attacks = 0.33 failed 3+ saves. I might be thinking in a logical fallacy here, but does that translate to the Pack Leader killing the VV Sgt 33% of the time in a challenge? Devastator Sgts with only 3 attacks inflicts 0.25 failed saves. SO I suppose Lightning Claw certainly does provide a buffer of initiative-insurance when fighting other MEQ. Honestly I might look into LCs over the Axe after crunching the numbers-- the Axe delivers 1.33 MEQ kills on the charge, LC delivers 1.25 MEQ kills on the charge.... so they are roughly close enough in performance, yet the claw goes at initiative. Seems better- I'll have to give it a go. And yes, I'll be trying out 4 meltabombs in there too-- just wanted to see how they performed at base-cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3145372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Thanks for that CitadelArmyGuy. I'm using them on Sat & Sun so I'll post up my experience(s) too. Don't you fancy giving them a few Meltabombs & maybe a Lightning Claw? Also, how did the Power Axe do? I'd take one but I'm scared of getting challenged & killed before Initiative step 1. Thoughts? - Dallas The Axe has been performing really well, but only versus the types of targets they've been matched up against. The closest fight was against the Long Fangs, but I did not issue a challenge and the opposing Pack Leader didn't issue one either so I breathed a sigh of relief there. Pack Leader does happen to be the "scariest" thing that the VV Sgt might have to fight in challenge on a normal basis. PackLeader with Counter-Attack, so 4 attacks = 0.33 failed 3+ saves. I might be thinking in a logical fallacy here, but does that translate to the Pack Leader killing the VV Sgt 33% of the time in a challenge? Devastator Sgts with only 3 attacks inflicts 0.25 failed saves. SO I suppose Lightning Claw certainly does provide a buffer of initiative-insurance when fighting other MEQ. Honestly I might look into LCs over the Axe after crunching the numbers-- the Axe delivers 1.33 MEQ kills on the charge, LC delivers 1.25 MEQ kills on the charge.... so they are roughly close enough in performance, yet the claw goes at initiative. Seems better- I'll have to give it a go. And yes, I'll be trying out 4 meltabombs in there too-- just wanted to see how they performed at base-cost. Yeah, that's why I asked about the axe, there is a chance that you'll get challenged by something like a Pack Leader who is quite tasty. 3+ can be failed & then it's bye bye to your Sergeant. Not the end of the world but it probably wouldn't end well for the other 4 VV. I'm going to try; 6 x VV - Jump Packs 4 x Meltabombs Sergeant with 2 x Lightning Claws 230 It's a little on the pricier end off things, but I figure that most of my targets will be <3+ save, the Sergeant will be doing most of the killing with 4 attacks that re-roll to wound - so he'll be dispatching plenty of MEQs & in challenges he'll do great too so I don't have to worry about that! I would have cut the points down but 1) I had 40 odd points hanging around with nothing better to use them on & 2) My Twin-Lightning Claw Sergeant looks damn cool, heh. If it's too points intensive I can easily cut it down to; 5 x VV - Jump Packs 4 x Meltabombs Sergeant with Power Weapon/single Lightning Claw (think I might prefer the Power Weapon for 4 attacks). 185 - Dallas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258325-vanguard-in-6th/#findComment-3145517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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