Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Gree]

At the end of Know No Fear, Erebus explains that the Word Bearers real main objective was to take the Ultramarines out of the Heresy. Their intention was to cripple the Ultramarine war effort and cut them off from the rest of the Imperium.

 

At the end the Word Bearers very arguably accomplish both. 4/5ths of the Ultramarine fleet is mentioned to be destroyed and at least half of the Ultramarines at Calth are killed, with possible more dead. A large chunk of the Ultramarines are left standard on Calth while the Warp storms close in. Meanwhile the Word Bearers and the World Eaters prepared to attack the rest of Ultramar.

 

From a strategic point of view I could certainly argue the Word Bearers won, and depending on how you interpret the book, they chose with withdraw, rather than the Ultramarines forcing them out.

[Legatus]

One thing that rubbed me the wrong way about 'Know No Fear' was that Dan had invented additional objectives for the Word Bearers which they accomplished successfully, almost turning it into a victory for them. But though I don't remember the section of the book, I do distinctly remember that at one point a Word Bearer (could have been Lorgar, could have been Kor Phaeron) does state that it was their main goal to completely eliminate the Ultramarines. So while they did achieve several of their side objectives, at least they did not manage to do that. If that had not really been their goal, then tehy would have completely succeeded at Calth, and I would have ranted quite a bit about that in my comments about the novel. It's bad enough that the Ultramarines had the "victory" taken from them and are saved by the Adeptus Mechanicus. And "crippling the Ultramarines" was among the goals of the Word Bearers, together with "shutting off this part of the galaxy with a huge warp storm". But I to think it was their goal to completely destroy the Ultramarines once and for all.

[Gree]

One thing that rubbed me the wrong way about 'Know No Fear' was that Dan had invented additional objectives for the Word Bearers which they accomplished successfully, almost turning it into a victory for them. But though I don't remember the section of the book, I do distinctly remember that at one point a Word Bearer (could have been Lorgar, could have been Kor Phaeron) does state that it was their main goal to completely eliminate the Ultramarines. So while they did achieve several of their side objectives, at least they did not manage to do that. If that had not really been their goal, then tehy would have completely succeeded at Calth, and I would have ranted quite a bit about that in my comments about the novel. It's bad enough that the Ultramarines had the "victory" taken from them and are saved by the Adeptus Mechanicus. And "crippling the Ultramarines" was among the goals of the Word Bearers, together with "shutting off this part of the galaxy with a huge warp storm". But I to think it was their goal to completely destroy the Ultramarines once and for all.

 

I believe Sorot Tchure mentioned that Kor Phaeron had a plan to comepltely destroy the Ultramarines, but I believe even he said that there had been ''a greater goal at work.''

 

"Calth is his operation, far more than it is Lorgar’s. Kor Phaeron has planned this for his primarch meticulously, and executed it with the aid of Erebus. The punishment and annihilation of the XIII is its principal aim; the humiliation and execution of the wretched Roboute Guilliman. But it is also an advancement, another step on the spiral path of the Great Ritual. It will allow their beloved primarch to progress.

 

Sorot Tchure is aware of his commander’s burden. There is no room for failure. There is a priceless and vital military objective to be won, but even that pales into nothing beside the greater intent."

 

At the very least, Erebus at the end is not even remotely concerned or worried at all about Phaeron's retreat.

[Legatus]

So, apparently executing Guilliman and eliminating the Ultramarines Legion really wasn't an important step in that spiral at all. Just a "nice to have", while the Word Bearers were in the neighbourhood.

[Gree]

So, apparently executing Guilliman and eliminating the Ultramarines Legion really wasn't an important step in that spiral at all. Just a "nice to have", while the Word Bearers were in the neighbourhood.

 

As far as I can tell, yes. Lorgar was not even present and Erebus hardly cared that Guilliman was alive. As far as I understand, it was Kor Phaeron's personal goal to take out Guilliman, but his Primarch and Erebus had other plans.

[mmaarrkk]

Considering the greater goal was to win the HH, they failed, assuming they won the HH and horus lived the ultras and Guilliman would have been 'dealt' with at a later date

 

It would have hurt the imperium a lot more after the HH if the word bearers had wiped out the ultras and Guilliman

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

SO Abnett gave the Word Bearers actual objectives to achieve, rather than have them running and screaming "Leeroy Jenkins!" and thats a BAD thing?!

 

personally, as a HH fan, I am happy that the relative worth of the Word Bearers has went from "emo, pathetic snot rags with daddy issues" to a capable, dangerous military force without becoming the mary-sues the Alpha Legion have. (ie, infiltrating an enemy legion and fooling its PRIMARCH)

 

WLK

[Gree]

Considering the greater goal was to win the HH, they failed, assuming they won the HH and horus lived the ultras and Guilliman would have been 'dealt' with at a later date

 

It would have hurt the imperium a lot more after the HH if the word bearers had wiped out the ultras and Guilliman

 

I'm talking about the Battle of Calth and the objectives that the Word Bearers had in place for it. Not the greater Heresy.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Considering the greater goal was to win the HH, they failed, assuming they won the HH and horus lived the ultras and Guilliman would have been 'dealt' with at a later date

 

It would have hurt the imperium a lot more after the HH if the word bearers had wiped out the ultras and Guilliman

 

I'm talking about the Battle of Calth and the objectives that the Word Bearers had in place for it. Not the greater Heresy.

 

As the goal of the Word Bearers was to prevent the Ultramarines from having a greater role in the HH, then at this point in the story it appears that they have been successful in that.

 

i saw it that way because the HH was 7 years long, and we are barely getting into it stry wise. there is alot of time for the Ultramarines to throw themselves into the conflict.

 

WLK

[mmaarrkk]

Considering the greater goal was to win the HH, they failed, assuming they won the HH and horus lived the ultras and Guilliman would have been 'dealt' with at a later date

 

It would have hurt the imperium a lot more after the HH if the word bearers had wiped out the ultras and Guilliman

 

I'm talking about the Battle of Calth and the objectives that the Word Bearers had in place for it. Not the greater Heresy.

 

 

As horus had sent them to Calth and had already planned to invade Terra I feel they would have planned to deal with the ultras after they won therefore wiping the ultras out was not the main objective. Its a given they traitors thought and planned to win the HH, if they didnt they would have tried to wipe the ultras out or if they thought it was going to be a more prolonged war.

[Pulse]

At the end of Know No Fear, Erebus explains that the Word Bearers real main objective was to take the Ultramarines out of the Heresy. Their intention was to cripple the Ultramarine war effort and cut them off from the rest of the Imperium.

 

At the end the Word Bearers very arguably accomplish both. 4/5ths of the Ultramarine fleet is mentioned to be destroyed and at least half of the Ultramarines at Calth are killed, with possible more dead. A large chunk of the Ultramarines are left standard on Calth while the Warp storms close in. Meanwhile the Word Bearers and the World Eaters prepared to attack the rest of Ultramar.

 

From a strategic point of view I could certainly argue the Word Bearers won, and depending on how you interpret the book, they chose with withdraw, rather than the Ultramarines forcing them out.

The Word Bearers achieved what they set out to do, that equals at the very least mission success/victory.

[Gree]

At the end of Know No Fear, Erebus explains that the Word Bearers real main objective was to take the Ultramarines out of the Heresy. Their intention was to cripple the Ultramarine war effort and cut them off from the rest of the Imperium.

 

At the end the Word Bearers very arguably accomplish both. 4/5ths of the Ultramarine fleet is mentioned to be destroyed and at least half of the Ultramarines at Calth are killed, with possible more dead. A large chunk of the Ultramarines are left standard on Calth while the Warp storms close in. Meanwhile the Word Bearers and the World Eaters prepared to attack the rest of Ultramar.

 

From a strategic point of view I could certainly argue the Word Bearers won, and depending on how you interpret the book, they chose with withdraw, rather than the Ultramarines forcing them out.

The Word Bearers achieved what they set out to do, that equals at the very least mission success/victory.

 

So an Ultramarine victory was retconnned into a Word Bearer victory?

[MadDoc]

So an Ultramarine victory was retconnned into a Word Bearer victory?

I hardly think that the Word Bearers defeat at Calth being shown to not be a complete failure (in terms of at least some of their objectives), while nonetheless still a defeat, constitutes a retcon. :)

[Sgt.Sangha]

I for one think the retcon makes a bit more sense. Now before everyone jumps the gun and starts defending the 13th legion and feel that it is a sting to their pride and an insult to their beloved 13th, allow me to elaborate. Having the 13th legion suffer this defeat at Calth lends more weight of why they could not be at Terra, without simply relying on the argument of warp storms. Now we see them losing a huge portion of their fleet, and an immediate threat to deal with since the 17th and 12th legion are attacking the region of Ultramar not to mention loss of manpower. I think that just makes good story telling. Also since we have established lore stating how strong the 13th legion is (ie victories achieved, manpower, logistic capabilities, worlds brought to compliance...etc) and not to mention a pseudo-empire that they have created, they cannot just be written off as not being able to take of the traitors without a logical explanation that does not radically alter the spirit of what the 13th legion is. You can look at it look from an in-universe view, or an out of universe view. I think Dan does an excellent job of taking the 13th legion out of the game for a while, with out taking away established strengths the the legion is historically known to possess.

[StrayCatt]

Additionally, those who have read Aurelian know that there were other 'things' at work regarding Calth. Lorgar made a choice regarding his grudge with the 13th, one that was to help elevate him to the next plane of existence.

[Legatus]

I think Dan does an excellent job of taking the 13th legion out of the game for a while, with out taking away established strengths the the legion is historically known to possess.

Like how he had them saved by that Adeptus Mechanicus girl and the deus ex machina defense grid, instead of the previous accounts of the Battle of Calth where the Ultramarines won through several bloody battles in space and on the ground? I dunno, man. The retconned effort of the Ultramarines is not really impressive at all. In the earlier account, the Ultramarines defeated the Word Bearers through their own sweat and blood in battle. In the new account, they undertake merely two minor actions (in scope, consisting of half to a couple of companies in size each), which enables the Adeptus Mechanicus girl to drive off the Word Bearers with the "win button" defense grid. The former was a notable accomplishment. The latter simply isn't.

 

I dunno. A D-B had hinted that the Ultramarines will be involved in more actions during the coming years of the Heresy, and will actually have some "cool" moments. (That's what Abnett had promised for 'Know No Fear' as well though, but that did not turn out well at all.) But so far, unfortunately, the Ultramarines have been treated pretty badly in those novels. Even by A D-B, even if he may not have intended it.

[Bearingtheword]

At the end of Know No Fear, Erebus explains that the Word Bearers real main objective was to take the Ultramarines out of the Heresy. Their intention was to cripple the Ultramarine war effort and cut them off from the rest of the Imperium.

 

At the end the Word Bearers very arguably accomplish both. 4/5ths of the Ultramarine fleet is mentioned to be destroyed and at least half of the Ultramarines at Calth are killed, with possible more dead. A large chunk of the Ultramarines are left standard on Calth while the Warp storms close in. Meanwhile the Word Bearers and the World Eaters prepared to attack the rest of Ultramar.

 

From a strategic point of view I could certainly argue the Word Bearers won, and depending on how you interpret the book, they chose with withdraw, rather than the Ultramarines forcing them out.

The Word Bearers achieved what they set out to do, that equals at the very least mission success/victory.

 

So an Ultramarine victory was retconnned into a Word Bearer victory?

 

 

It is, once again, a matter of perspective. From the Imperial perspective the Word Bearers failed in their perceived goal of annihilating the Ultramarines and their primarch. From the Word Bearers perspective, that was not their main goal all along. One of many goals? Most likely, but it is clearly illustrated that it wasn't the important one. As the history of 40k is written from the view of the Imperium, the Ultramarines surviving, the failure to kill the primarch and driving the Word Bearers out of the system IS a victory. To the Word Bearers, the accomplishment of several goals and the main mission, whatever it may be, that Abnet alluded to is a victory in their eyes.

 

So no retcon there that I can see, just an expansion in the sum total knowledge of the events at Calth.

 

~BtW

[Gree]

Like how he had them saved by that Adeptus Mechanicus girl and the deus ex machina defense grid,

 

It's not a deus ex machina. A deuz ex machina is a device pulled out of nowhere. The defense grid was clearly established early and and repeatedly referenced by the characters.

 

So an Ultramarine victory was retconnned into a Word Bearer victory?

I hardly think that the Word Bearers defeat at Calth being shown to not be a complete failure (in terms of at least some of their objectives), while nonetheless still a defeat, constitutes a retcon. :)

 

Erebus would disagree.

[mmaarrkk]

At the end of Know No Fear, Erebus explains that the Word Bearers real main objective was to take the Ultramarines out of the Heresy. Their intention was to cripple the Ultramarine war effort and cut them off from the rest of the Imperium.

 

At the end the Word Bearers very arguably accomplish both. 4/5ths of the Ultramarine fleet is mentioned to be destroyed and at least half of the Ultramarines at Calth are killed, with possible more dead. A large chunk of the Ultramarines are left standard on Calth while the Warp storms close in. Meanwhile the Word Bearers and the World Eaters prepared to attack the rest of Ultramar.

 

From a strategic point of view I could certainly argue the Word Bearers won, and depending on how you interpret the book, they chose with withdraw, rather than the Ultramarines forcing them out.

The Word Bearers achieved what they set out to do, that equals at the very least mission success/victory.

 

So an Ultramarine victory was retconnned into a Word Bearer victory?

 

 

It is, once again, a matter of perspective. From the Imperial perspective the Word Bearers failed in their perceived goal of annihilating the Ultramarines and their primarch. From the Word Bearers perspective, that was not their main goal all along. One of many goals? Most likely, but it is clearly illustrated that it wasn't the important one. As the history of 40k is written from the view of the Imperium, the Ultramarines surviving, the failure to kill the primarch and driving the Word Bearers out of the system IS a victory. To the Word Bearers, the accomplishment of several goals and the main mission, whatever it may be, that Abnet alluded to is a victory in their eyes.

 

So no retcon there that I can see, just an expansion in the sum total knowledge of the events at Calth.

 

~BtW

 

Well put, the age old adage that history is written by the victor.

 

Also there will be at least another story concerning Calth with the Ultra's and word bearers that are still stuck on the planet iirc

[Legatus]

It is, once again, a matter of perspective. From the Imperial perspective the Word Bearers failed in their perceived goal of annihilating the Ultramarines and their primarch. From the Word Bearers perspective, that was not their main goal all along.

If we know the true agenda of the Word Bearers, then it is not a "matter of perspective" at all. We know that they won at Calth, plain and simple. If the Ultramarines don't even recognize that they had achieved their agenda, that does not make it any less the case.

[Azarias]

I think Dan does an excellent job of taking the 13th legion out of the game for a while, with out taking away established strengths the the legion is historically known to possess.

Like how he had them saved by that Adeptus Mechanicus girl and the deus ex machina defense grid, instead of the previous accounts of the Battle of Calth where the Ultramarines won through several bloody battles in space and on the ground? I dunno, man. The retconned effort of the Ultramarines is not really impressive at all. In the earlier account, the Ultramarines defeated the Word Bearers through their own sweat and blood in battle. In the new account, they undertake merely two minor actions (in scope, consisting of half to a couple of companies in size each), which enables the Adeptus Mechanicus girl to drive off the Word Bearers with the "win button" defense grid. The former was a notable accomplishment. The latter simply isn't.

 

To steal a joke, from where I can't remember: I . . . think . . . this . . . has . . . more . . . to . . . do . . . withAbnet'sproblemswithpacing.

 

Read: to represent the ending of the battle as a purely military venture would have required another hundred-and-fifty-or-so pages, as opposed to the thirty or so the Deus Ex Machina (almost literally, in this case) represented.

[Sgt.Sangha]

I think Dan does an excellent job of taking the 13th legion out of the game for a while, with out taking away established strengths the the legion is historically known to possess.

Like how he had them saved by that Adeptus Mechanicus girl and the deus ex machina defense grid, instead of the previous accounts of the Battle of Calth where the Ultramarines won through several bloody battles in space and on the ground? I dunno, man. The retconned effort of the Ultramarines is not really impressive at all. In the earlier account, the Ultramarines defeated the Word Bearers through their own sweat and blood in battle. In the new account, they undertake merely two minor actions (in scope, consisting of half to a couple of companies in size each), which enables the Adeptus Mechanicus girl to drive off the Word Bearers with the "win button" defense grid. The former was a notable accomplishment. The latter simply isn't.

 

To steal a joke, from where I can't remember: I . . . think . . . this . . . has . . . more . . . to . . . do . . . withAbnet'sproblemswithpacing.

 

Read: to represent the ending of the battle as a purely military venture would have required another hundred-and-fifty-or-so pages, as opposed to the thirty or so the Deus Ex Machina (almost literally, in this case) represented.

I dont think that the entire battle of Calth is represented in its fullest and my only speculation is because the author was probably trying to move the story along. I mean if we look at the lore this is a huge battle and I think would be a tough task to handle for an author. However I believe there are still a lot of other battles to be fought, not to mention all of Ultramar is being contested, so I think the hard fought battles have not all be shown yet. As for the adeptus mechanicus girl saving the day being a new bit of information and fluff, I can see why you would be upset, however if you look at the fluff in the past there was not that much scrutiny paid to the details and so even if the girl turned the grid on, it still does not mean that it wasnt a hard fought battle by the Ultramarines. it is not like they werent fighting tooth and nail against the enemy once they got over the initial surprise of the assault.

[Felix Antipodes]

I see at least two more Ultra books to come (Calth wrap up & the battle for Macragge/final pushing out of Horus forces from Ultramar region). After that I see their role as similar to the soviets in WW2; a slow grind towards Terra against retreating enemy forces attempting to delay them until the Imperial Palace falls to Horus & he can then turn his attention to them.

 

Lots of scope for Ultramarines forces to shine & still stay within current fluff.

[Bearingtheword]

Sgt.Sangha, I fully agree that we were only seeing it in parts. Just like the each battle in the game we play represents only one small part of a larger conflict (unless it's an Apoc game, then it's a larger part). So I think we only are seeing bits and pieces of what was happening on Calth and not all of it.

 

Legatus, you and I have danced this dance before, and I still find it kinda sad that you cannot step outside your seemingly rabid Ultramarines fandom perspective on the 40k universe and accept that things are being written from the perspective of the Imperium 90% or so of the time. We are now starting to finally have authors that present different persepectives (Chaos, Eldar and others) but as pointed out by others in other threads; it is difficult to write from the perspective of the Xenos. I think you'd enjoy the expanding 40k universe much more if you step back a bit and look at things with fresh eyes. Not everything is going to fit your perspective, but that's the way things go. Not trying to pick a fight with you as you have some excellent insights and knowledge on many subjects pertaining to 40k, but seeing the perspective and the prejudices it brings is one area that I personally think you are lacking in. Personally I can't wait to read more on the HH and the various actions that are to come.

 

~BtW

[Haranin]

Their is nothing wrong with both Chaos and the Smurfs viewing the battle as a win- different sides can have different objectives after all.

 

Chaos- raise hell, delay the UM. Inflict serious losses. Since its an UM planet, more you damage/destroy the better. Its not your planet!

 

UM- Drive off the Chaos forces.

 

Nothing inconsistent regarding both sides viewing it as a win.