Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[pingo]

What veiled insult?

I thought you were implying I was too stupid to understand you. My apologies :(

 

Because main characters are more powerful and more narratively important. Standards that apply to them don't apply to red shirt characters. Bringing up ''plenty of Jedi get killed by lesser beings'' does not matter when I'm talking about main character Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Ok, cool, that's quite an interesting point. You should expand on stuff more, it's helpful and gives some meat to the discussion.

 

I would agree with you there, but I can't stretch that agreement to your main point and Obi losing to Nute. I'm afraid I don't see the power wielded by Kor Phaeron as out of character or out of place, where it would be for Nute to do that. Kor's power is unexpected, yes. This is obviously something we are at an impasse over and we'll just have to shake on it.

 

Just pointing out a contradiction as you claimed there was no retcon.

Where exactly did I say that? Where is the contradiction?

Did you not say to Idaho that there was no contradiction in the fluff? Your basis for your thinking seems to be that in previous fluff there was no indication something like this fight could turn out the way it did.

 

Dude, if I've got you wrong again I apologise, but if so you really need to elaborate on stuff ;)

[Gree]

You know what? Forget it. I typed up a response but at this point I've lost all interest in this. I have better things to do.

[pingo]

You know what? Forget it. I typed up a response but at this point I've lost all interest in this. I have better things to do.

Sorry dude, I thought we were getting somewhere :(

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i would point out that the Russ vs Magnus fight was not a brutal beat down affrair on Magnus, but rather a very desparate fight that could have gone either way as present by Abnett. Russ even had his two wolves get involved in the fight, and took a brutal beating from Magnus's powers and fighting skills before siezing a chance at victory.

 

hardly the fight we Wolves have been reading for years, but none of us are crying over it. good drama = good story.

 

WLK

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Guilliman's actions might not have been portrayed as outlined in the earlier articles on Calth but I personally thought the rewrite of Guilliman's actions during Calth were welcome. The Deus Ex Machina in the old fluff was Guilliman stepping in and magically reversing the outcome of the battle by micromanaging everything as someone said earlier. I thought the KNF version was much more characterful, made more sense in the timeline (old versions didnt quite mesh up with the other heresy events but now are explained very reasonably) and added character some character to the Chapter that was desperately needed. Did Guilliman not look as good as in the previous versions? Probably not. Did I think it was maybe a bit much that a weakened and drained Kor Phareon (described earlier) chokeslams Robby G? Maybe a lil bit. Did he get whooped? Heck no! What wins the fight is what wins the fight. I think the guy getting carried away sans one primary heart organ was probably the loser. Just sayin'. In older editions of the WH40k rules it is stated that the heroes of the 41st millennium approach the Primarchs in their power and I wouldnt see why the #1 henchman of a Primarch wouldnt be able to do some serious damage to a Primarch, if not kill them outright with the right circumstances.

 

I thought the Philosopher-King/Roman-Greco Logic addition was a wonderful addition to the Ultras. It fits very very well and has one toe in the bathwater of real history. Gotta love that! Logic, Philosophy, Debate and Discussion are primary tools to the war-fighting of the 13th Legion where they discuss the Theoretical, the Practical and the Application of such. Ultramarines are soldiers, not warriors. It is shown several times in the story where meritocracy and not seniority were respected and a Marine who has the ability to do so SHOULD and WILL do so, whether it is establishing chains of command, communications, giving orders/troop musters. The disparate and separated forces of the Ultras basically marched around the planet to an encrypted signal with little to no information, concrete orders or hierarchy of battle; these Ultramarine forces were harried by Word Bearer forces and attached units which included Titans yet they manage to muster enough strength and discipline to counter-attack the major organized ground offensive being staged by the Word Bearers and kick the crap out of them.

 

edit: Despite the Ultra's successes the WBs did pull off a bigger coup; The warp storm which delays or slows Loyalist legions to a point where they cannot directly take action in the Siege of Terra which leads to the 'death' of the Big E.

[Legatus]

Regarding the fight between Guilliman and Kor Phaeron:

 

Is it conceivable that under certain circumstances a Primarch is bested by a non-Primarch opponent? I guess so.

 

The thing is that we do not have a long library of each Primarch's deeds and actions, so our perception of each Primarch is informed by the few actions that are described in the various sources. And now we have a description of a Word Bearers commander flawlessly three-shotting Guilliman, but then deciding not to finish him off.

 

If we had several stories of Guilliman's martial exploits, then seeing him getting his rear completely handed to him by an enemy Marine commander would not have such a negative impact. But we do not have those stories of Guilliman looking good in a fight, so this example of weakness is not balanced by other examples of prowess. We did not even get to see Guilliman do anything impressive in the entire novel. (Punching a guys head of in space does not really count, since feats of that nature are generic for a Primarch.) So, after having removed Guilliman's direction of a massive battle in space and on the surface and having taken any kind of achievement from him, Dan Abnett ends the novel with a fight where Guilliman is slapped around by Kor Phaeron, and only barely survives because at the last minute Kor Phaeron decides not to proceed to effortlessly kill Guilliman, but instead to try to turn him.

 

It stings. Especially after years of having to read opinions of Guilliman being among the weakest of the Primarchs. After a previous novella had just insinuated that Lorgar would defeat Guilliman if they ever were to face off. In the previous account of the Battle of Calth Guilliman had made a great show. This novel has removed all of that. Retconned out of existance. And then he gets slapped around.

[mactire]

does guillimans beating not show the complete unawareness that the loyalists have of the warps powers ? rather than seeing this as a weakness i think the book shows the UMs in a good light. people are always complaining on here about the ultras (smurfs, girllyman etc.) but i think that KNF has dispelled a lot of that i see them more as the spartans/greeks/romans of old. no matter the odds, no matter the set backs, the get back up learn from it and tactically kick a**.

i find it strange that an ultra fan is the one poking holes in the story when non-ultras are finding it good, at least this story explains why the ultras couldnt get to terra and also imho gives reason for the overturn of nikea in guillimans post heresy codex.

[Legatus]

I hope you don't think it overly cynical of me when I surmise that the fact that neither the Ultramarines nor Guilliman did anything awesome in the entire novel explains why non-Ultramarine were able to enjoy it so much.

 

Also: Orks. They use warp powers. As do Eldar. That the Space Marine Legions should somehow have been unaware of warp powers after two hundred years of crusading does not fly. Just one more reason why the original Edict of Nikaea had made so much more sense.

[Azekai]

Dan Abnett ends the novel with a fight where Guilliman is slapped around by Kor Phaeron, and only barely survives because at the last minute Kor Phaeron decides not to proceed to effortlessly kill Guilliman, but instead to try to turn him.

 

It stings. Especially after years of having to read opinions of Guilliman being among the weakest of the Primarchs. After a previous novella had just insinuated that Lorgar would defeat Guilliman if they ever were to face off. In the previous account of the Battle of Calth Guilliman had made a great show. This novel has removed all of that. Retconned out of existance. And then he gets slapped around.

 

I feel you, Legatus. The sons of Mortarion felt the same way with that blurb in the GK codex regarding our Primarch getting leet pwned by a fething Mary Sue mortal. :lol:

[pingo]

I hope you don't think it overly cynical of me when I surmise that the fact that neither the Ultramarines nor Guilliman did anything awesome in the entire novel explains why non-Ultramarine were able to enjoy it so much.

I'm an Ultramarine fan and I enjoyed the book.

 

I don't need to be explicitly told or shown how awesome Ultramarines are. To me, the novel allows you to interpret them that way if you wish to do so.

[Antarius]

I hope you don't think it overly cynical of me when I surmise that the fact that neither the Ultramarines nor Guilliman did anything awesome in the entire novel explains why non-Ultramarine were able to enjoy it so much.

 

Also: Orks. They use warp powers. As do Eldar. That the Space Marine Legions should somehow have been unaware of warp powers after two hundred years of crusading does not fly. Just one more reason why the original Edict of Nikaea had made so much more sense.

Well I'm a huge fan of the Ultramarines. I don't even mind the Mat Ward codex so much (it's the best thing he's written, at any rate). They are the greatest chapter after all.

 

In any event, I certainly didn't feel that KNF put the Ultras down, nor would I in any way be happy that it did.

 

As for the Warp powers, I'm not certain that there's any real understanding that what Orks and Eldar use are equivalent to warp powers. Even so, Guilliman might still be surprised that Kor Phaeron employs such powers (especially because it doesn't seem like it's just a standard "strength 4, assault 3" power or whatever).

[Unintentional Batman]

I hope you don't think it overly cynical of me when I surmise that the fact that neither the Ultramarines nor Guilliman did anything awesome in the entire novel explains why non-Ultramarine were able to enjoy it so much.

 

Non-Ultramarine? I really, really hope you aren't suggesting that if Ultramarines are one's favourite faction in the gaming universe, one somehow is "part" of the Ultramarines...

 

*backs away slowly*

[Lord_Caerolion]

I love how in the massive arguments about Primarchs not being beaten by their "lessers", people completely forgot about Horus getting sliced up by his corrupted Governor friend.

[Unintentional Batman]

Oh, but you see, Horus was a traitor. So in the minds of the fanatical loyalist fans he was weak and useless and whatnot. Only non-uber portrayal of the loyalist primarchs causes outrage. :cuss

[Blacksad]

I find it funny that some people seem unwilling to accept that Rob was formost a thinker and commander, not so much a fighter.

 

Rob is Stephen Hawking. Sure, many can beat him up, but not many can match him.

[overloard]

I love how in the massive arguments about Primarchs not being beaten by their "lessers", people completely forgot about Horus getting sliced up by his corrupted Governor friend.

Hello. My first post here.

 

It's been some time since i read False God, but if i recall correctly, Temba was massively corrupted by Nurgle, had super-duper anti-everything blade, and still Horus defeated him rather easily, and Horus even had impression that he fought more against blade itself than against Temba. He only managed to wound Horus once, but thanks to Nurgle/Anatheme it was enough to fell him afterwards.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Let's see... Dorn also got killed by a bunch of mooks (apparently) and got beat to a pulp by Curze, Vulkan has apparently died from a missile strike, Lorgar got beat down in his one fight scene in First Heretic, and almost died in Aurelian, Alpharius supposedly dies to a single sword swing according to one source, Angron got enslaved by humans, and the list goes on.

 

Welcome to the B&C! Addressing that point though, the fact remains that warp magic made it so that Horus practically died from a single wound, and was only saved by the application of yet more warp magic. That was also from only a single hit, if I remember correctly, so if anything, he's now even weaker than Guilliman, because Guilliman took 3 hits, then came back entirely by himself straight away.

[overloard]

Dorn also got killed by a bunch of mooks (apparently)

We don't know what actually happened there

 

got beat to a pulp by Curze

Sucker punch, and it's primarch vs primarch anyway

 

Vulkan has apparently died from a missile strike

I thought he survived Istvaan?

 

Lorgar got beat down in his one fight scene in First Heretic

Primarch vs Primarch

 

and almost died in Aurelian

He defeated the most powerful bloodthrister. Sounds good to me.

 

Alpharius supposedly dies to a single sword swing according to one source

Primarch vs Primarch

 

Angron got enslaved by humans, and the list goes on

He was a baby back then, but i agree, his whole backstory didn't sit well with me

[Captain Idaho]

I find it funny that some people seem unwilling to accept that Rob was formost a thinker and commander, not so much a fighter.

 

Rob is Stephen Hawking. Sure, many can beat him up, but not many can match him.

 

Clearly you haven't read the book. :cuss

[Legatus]

I love how in the massive arguments about Primarchs not being beaten by their "lessers", people completely forgot about Horus getting sliced up by his corrupted Governor friend.

Was Horus completely dominated by that guy? And did the guy then slowly and gleefully approach the kneeling Horus and put the blade to his throat? If I read up on that fight tomorrow, will that be what I will find?

 

 

Let's see... Dorn also got killed by a bunch of mooks (apparently)

How did that went down again? For all we know there were a bunch of Kor Phareon's on that ship, and they probably did not completely swat Dorn aside as if he was nothing. Heck, for all we know it could have been another Primarch. It was one of the first Black Crusades after all, and Dorn was attacking one of the flagships IIRC.

 

 

and got beat to a pulp by Curze,

At least that was another Primarch.

 

 

Vulkan has apparently died from a missile strike,

"Apparently" does not sound that convincing. And was it a missile from a hand held missile launcher, or a bigger one from a siege engine?

 

 

Lorgar got beat down in his one fight scene in First Heretic,

He's holding his own for quite some time against another Primarch. How is that comparable to Guilliman getting flawlessly three-shotted by a Marine commander?

 

 

and almost died in Aurelian,

Huh, I thought he dominated everyone in that story?

 

 

Alpharius supposedly dies to a single sword swing according to one source,

Yeah, that was one lucky Guardsman.

 

Oh, wait. It wasn't a Guardsman at all...

 

 

Angron got enslaved by humans,

...when he was just a child.

 

 

and the list goes on.

And unfortunately, as of yet, it seems that Guilliman is at the bottom of that list.

 

 

---

 

I find it funny that some people seem unwilling to accept that Rob was formost a thinker and commander, not so much a fighter.

As opposed to the Word Bearers, who were widely known to be awesome fighters.

[overloard]

Welcome to the B&C! Addressing that point though, the fact remains that warp magic made it so that Horus practically died from a single wound, and was only saved by the application of yet more warp magic. That was also from only a single hit, if I remember correctly, so if anything, he's now even weaker than Guilliman, because Guilliman took 3 hits, then came back entirely by himself straight away.

 

Thank you. I just wanted wanted to point out that he wasn't actually defeated in combat, but only felled afterwards thanks to warp machinations, and whole battle was culmination of years of preparation by gods and Erebus. I would have no complaints if Guilliman was defeated thanks to very powerful ritual or meticulously planned ambush, but i got the impression that throwing these beams is something that Kor Phaeron can do anyday anytime. Word Bearers didn't even expect to fight Guilliman, they thought he died in explosion.

[Captain Idaho]

It is perculiar the only people who think Guilliman looked weak were Ultramarines fans, yet people who don't care for the Ultramarines don't actually think he looked weaker than all the other Primarches at all.

 

Did people not read the parts before where Guilliman was noted by the omnipotent narrator, NOT Guilliman or one of his men, an OMNIPOTENT NARRATOR, that Guilliman was peerless in his combat prowas and only matched, AT BEST, by 5 of his brothers?

 

Reading comprehension requires we don't take a statement or event described in a story on it's own without context. Guilliman was built up by Abbnet to be very elite and peerless in the story. This wasn't told for the purpose of tricking the reader, but to emphasis just why he is considered the Great Primarch. Now, given this information, basic logic and read comprehension tells us that for a subsequent attack to beat him, it needs to be pretty powerful or have extenuating circumstances attached to it.

 

It's glaringly obvious really. It's not a big deal in any shape or form that Guilliman was almost undone by sorcery. If Kor Phaeron uses the attack on someone else later on and they are unaffected by it, then sure it makes Guilliman look weak. Right now, the context of the entire story tells us the attack must have been extremely powerful to affect Guilliman since all other information points to him being unstopable.

[Capt. Taurus]

Right, so. Some people are angry that G-man got beat by a non-Primarch. Others are not so angry, and neither the twain shall meet.

 

With that out of the way, did we ever the settle the question "Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?" 'Cause you know, that's sort of the whole point of the thread and all. Plus, I like this thread but don't like reading the same arguments over and over again.

 

This is not about Guilliman getting his bottom handed to him period. It's about a Primarch getting his ass handed to him by someone who is not up to the task of facing a Primarch no matter what powers the chaos gods invest him with.

 

I am a Guilliman fanboy and I would never deny that but I still have troubles stomaching the death of Ferrus Manus. Here is the difference though, Ferrus dies in accordance with the mythology of 40K betrayed by one of his peers he puts up a cataclysmic fight well nigh slaying Fulgrim before he loses and is killed himself. Same goes for Sanguinius.

 

Sometimes people forget how important the mythology of the entire story is (or used to be at least), we are talking about the genetic derivatives (sons) of a god-like.thousand-pysker-shamans-incarnation. They were never depicted as being vulnerable to the actions of mere mortals. The entire point of the epicness of the HH is that the supposedly most powerful Primarch manages to turn half of his demigod brotherhood against the other half.

 

@all: And forget about this nonsense that Guilliman was a thinker not a fighter, the Primarchs are essentially the same in strength and power but vary greatly in character, habits and preference of methods. Guilliman being a "Thinker" instead of a fighter would mean that Angron sucks at tactics which he doesn't, he is just insane enough to disregard tactical considerations and charge straight into the melee.

 

Regarding the Horus vs. Temba example, that is a different case entirely. Horus was not a sadistic mass-murderer (yet) when he faced Temba he felt compassion and was terrified at what had become of his former friend. He was fighting with restraint and defeated him nonetheless.

 

But you know what forget it, I yield, it's pointless to argue any further. This is just little old me feeling displeased about the concept of Primarchhood being diminished in this way. Maybe I am still entangled in the 2nd edition fluff too much to appreciate the change of times.

 

PS: remember the outrage that Calgar could kill an Avatar.....? Make of that what you will.

[Legatus]

Did people not read the parts before where Guilliman was noted by the omnipotent narrator, NOT Guilliman or one of his men, an OMNIPOTENT NARRATOR, that Guilliman was peerless in his combat prowas and only matched, AT BEST, by 5 of his brothers?

I am not so sure. Wasn't that part of a narration of one of the Ultramarine commander's thought processes? Like Marius Gage?

 

 

It is perculiar the only people who think Guilliman looked weak were Ultramarines fans, yet people who don't care for the Ultramarines don't actually think he looked weaker than all the other Primarches at all.

Some had expressed sympathy for the way the Ultramarines or Guilliman were described in the novel. But I suppose the majority will simply not feel that depictions of a weak Guilliman are unwarranted.

[pingo]

I find it funny that some people seem unwilling to accept that Rob was formost a thinker and commander, not so much a fighter.

 

Rob is Stephen Hawking. Sure, many can beat him up, but not many can match him.

 

Clearly you haven't read the book. :blush:

Yeah, A Brief History of Time is full of awesome fight scenes.