Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Blacksad]

I find it funny that some people seem unwilling to accept that Rob was formost a thinker and commander, not so much a fighter.

 

Rob is Stephen Hawking. Sure, many can beat him up, but not many can match him.

 

Clearly you haven't read the book. :blush:

clearly you haven't read what you quoted... or did, in some point in time, the meaning of the word "many" change and become the same as "all"?

[Legatus]

I find it funny that some people seem unwilling to accept that Rob was formost a thinker and commander, not so much a fighter.

 

Rob is Stephen Hawking. Sure, many can beat him up, but not many can match him.

 

Clearly you haven't read the book. :blush:

Yeah, A Brief History of Time is full of awesome fight scenes.

Why is there still no 'like' button?

[Captain Idaho]

Did people not read the parts before where Guilliman was noted by the omnipotent narrator, NOT Guilliman or one of his men, an OMNIPOTENT NARRATOR, that Guilliman was peerless in his combat prowas and only matched, AT BEST, by 5 of his brothers?

I am not so sure. Wasn't that part of a narration of one of the Ultramarine commander's thought processes? Like Marius Gage?

 

No. Marius Gage wasn't present at the time.

 

It is perculiar the only people who think Guilliman looked weak were Ultramarines fans, yet people who don't care for the Ultramarines don't actually think he looked weaker than all the other Primarches at all.

 

Some had expressed sympathy for the way the Ultramarines or Guilliman were described in the novel. But I suppose the majority will simply not feel that depictions of a weak Guilliman are unwarranted.

 

That's not quite what is happening though. People aren't saying Guilliman looks weak because of it, that's just you and Gree, plus a couple others who feel Kor Phaeron wasn't powerful to be Primarch toppling.

 

Besides that, Kor Phaeron, regardless of people's personal preferences or interpretation of pevious fluff, HAS been given the power to topple a Primarch in the right circumstance. It's now a fact he had that power whether we agree.

[Rik Lightstar]

Kor Phaeron and Erebus have been the "Arch-Architects" of the Heresy for some time and Kor Phaeron especially is meant to have been a life-long worshipper of the Chaos Gods and has through his work with Erebus, made the Heresy happen and brought a number of the Primarchs into the fold of Chaos, based on other fluff (Horus being elevated to a near match of the Emperor, Luthor and the Lion, etc) there is no issue to me with the idea that when they have the focus of the gods upon them, the "weaker" bad-guys have the ability to step-up and threaten those who otherwise would be beyond their reach.

 

Rik.

[Legatus]

At that point in the Heresy Kor Phaeron had arguably done what he was supposed to and was no longer of interest to the Gods. Especially since his crusade against the Ultramarines was largely a personal matter.

 

Plus, I wonder why we never see Abaddon throw around warp lightning? Perhaps because previously the Chaos powers were not known to turn people into psykers.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Perhaps because previously the Chaos powers were not known to turn people into psykers.

 

...Yes they were. Sorcery has usually been described as being gained from creating a daemonic pact, even if the wielder isn't a psyker themselves. Even back in Realms of Chaos, the Chaos Gods could gift you with sorcery, making you able to manipulate the Warp, with Tzeentch having an even greater chance of being able to do so.

[Rik Lightstar]

Actually, Legatus your latest response has convinced me, obviously the entire premise is flawed and that scene, and by association the entire book are in fact nothing more than bum-gravy of the lowest order.

 

Have you started reading the Heresy series yet? Last I saw you were refusing to do so and decrying the fact that everything has changed and "the empire has been ruined forever"

 

/end :) y rant

 

Rik

[Wade Garrett]

Daemon Primarch Magnus the Red was one shotted by Ragnar Blackmane. Alpharius Omegon was arguably outmatched in sword play by a baseline standard human. And as previously mentioned, Mortarion was beaten down and mutilated by a Grey Knight. Primarchs can bleed just like the rest of us.

[Gree]

I'm sorry, I know I said I lost interest in this, but I just had to come back and point this out:

 

Daemon Primarch Magnus the Red was one shotted by Ragnar Blackmane. Alpharius Omegon was arguably outmatched in sword play by a baseline standard human. And as previously mentioned, Mortarion was beaten down and mutilated by a Grey Knight. Primarchs can bleed just like the rest of us.

 

The first two are not quite the same. In the first it was not an actual fight, it was more like Magnus's daemonic essence half-manifesting before Rangar threw a relic weapon at it. And with Alpharius Omegon, was he defeated and at the mercy of said human? With said human deliberately choosing to spare his life?

 

No, all the human did was wound Omegon before Omegon quickly killed him. At no point was Omegon utterly outmatched or an any danger of dying. It's not the same as Kor Phaeron knocking down Guilliman in three shots before having Guilliman completely at his mercy.

 

And of course the Mortation example is also idiotic and heavily criticised when it came out, but that again that's Ward for you.

 

But the issue is not that Primarchs bleed, it is just that Guilliman was utterly taken out without a chance to get a single hit, by someone who should be far weaker than him. It's also that Guilliman is peforming far less compared to Russ, who defeats Magnus, Sanguinius, who beat a super-powerful Bloodthrister, or Lorgar who also beat a powerful Bloodthrister.

[Gree]

Was Horus completely dominated by that guy? And did the guy then slowly and gleefully approach the kneeling Horus and put the blade to his throat? If I read up on that fight tomorrow, will that be what I will find?

 

To clarify, it was an fairly lengthy duel with Horus getting a sevral good hits in that normally would have killed the traitor had he not been blessed by Nurgle. And the tratior never really defeats Horus per say, it's really more of a double kill actually, with Horus still standing afer he defeats the traitor.

 

So, no Horus was not completely dominated by that guy. In fact I would say it's the opposite, with Horus getting in repeated killing blows with the traitor surviving only because of Nurgle-granted blessings.

[Billuriye]

Kor Phaeron is backed by Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods are known to elevate their minions to ridiculous levels e.g. Horus beating Emperor, daemon princes with human origin being more powerful than daemon primarchs and lastly Kor Phaeron swatting RG like a ragdoll. But this power level :cuss and "not mah Ultramarines BAAAW" crap don't do B&C any credit.

 

***Please use the censored smilie if you have to make such a point***

[Conn Eremon]

Kor Phaeron knocking down Guilliman in three shots before having Guilliman completely at his mercy.

 

That didn't really come through in the book, though, that Kor Phaeron had Guilliman "at his mercy." He certainly seemed to think so, but the language used by the author and the actions and demeanor of the two involved made it obvious that Kor Phaeron did nothing more than blindside him and think that was all he needed to do. It was a duplicate of the daemon on the bridge event (hooray obvious foreshadowing). Something happened that took Guilliman unawares and left witnesses wondering about his fate, only to reveal that it did absolutely nothing to take him out of the fight. He got hit and knocked down, Kor Phaeron puffed his chest up in pride, then he got his heart ripped out. But all he did was knock him down. Now if he had knocked him out, you could say he had Guilliman at his mercy. But all the book suggests is that Kor Phaeron erroneously thought that he did.

[Antarius]

Out of curiosity, would it have changed anything for the people who have a problem with this if RG had gone down (to later get up again) to three shots from a lascannon?

[Gree]

Kor Phaeron knocking down Guilliman in three shots before having Guilliman completely at his mercy.

 

That didn't really come through in the book, though, that Kor Phaeron had Guilliman "at his mercy." He certainly seemed to think so, but the language used by the author and the actions and demeanor of the two involved made it obvious that Kor Phaeron did nothing more than blindside him and think that was all he needed to do. It was a duplicate of the daemon on the bridge event (hooray obvious foreshadowing). Something happened that took Guilliman unawares and left witnesses wondering about his fate, only to reveal that it did absolutely nothing to take him out of the fight. He got hit and knocked down, Kor Phaeron puffed his chest up in pride, then he got his heart ripped out. But all he did was knock him down. Now if he had knocked him out, you could say he had Guilliman at his mercy. But all the book suggests is that Kor Phaeron erroneously thought that he did.

 

Even Guilliman admits that Kor Phaeron could have killed him had he so wished. Guilliman lived because Kor Phaeron chose to spare him. They both pretty much admit that.

[Pulse]

Out of curiosity, would it have changed anything for the people who have a problem with this if RG had gone down (to later get up again) to three shots from a lascannon?

Probably would annoy a few people i would assume as a Lascannon shot tends to kill pretty much anything on contact, so taking three shots would have pretty much burned him away to nothing.

[overloard]

Out of curiosity, would it have changed anything for the people who have a problem with this if RG had gone down (to later get up again) to three shots from a lascannon?

I think after countless descriptions of other primarchs withstanding enormous amounts of damage and shrugging off storms of bolter fire like it's nothing, people would have been similarly disappointed with his performance.

[Captain Idaho]

The thing is, who cares Guilliman wasn't stomping all over the arch-enemy at the end of the level? It's incredibly fan-boyish to demand he is unbeatable unless facing someone of godlike stature.

[Bulwyf]

Am I the only person wondering with the direction the HH is going that the ultimate ninja vs pirate fight would have to be any Space Wolf as the now revealed "greatest of all" Legion vs. some schmoe "infused with Chaos sorcery"?

 

In fact why doesn't Chaos in 40k times simply supercharge some traitor Astartes like they did with Horus or Kor Phaeron and have them simply clobber the Imperium that is now deprived of the Emperor and any loyal primarchs? Why stop with just one or two guys? Why not supercharge an army of them?

 

I know, I know..."suspension of disbelief" and all that but seriously when you have not even a real Space Marine that can whip a Primarch in three hits and had amply opportunity to kill him simply because he was sippin' "Chaos sorcery" then the mind boggles at the logic behind it.

[Legatus]

Have you started reading the Heresy series yet?

I have read 'Know No Fear'.

 

 

Being killed by a ranged weapon (the three lascannon shots) is not really all that glorious. Unless the Primarch was fighting against an entire army, and after a long drawn out fight more and more enemy forces started zeroing in on him. If the three lascannon shots would just be the icing on the cake, after his armour had already been torn up by continuous attacks. As long as the Primarch makes a good stand it would be acceptable. Being killed by daemon Fulgrim is a good way to go. It's just a shame that the guys over at BL missed the opportunity to make Fulgrim and Guilliman closer friends. That would have made it better. Their respective doctrines would have permitted that as well.

 

 

Edit:

It's incredibly fan-boyish to demand he is unbeatable unless facing someone of godlike stature.

I dunno. I find disappointment in your favourite Primarch being slapped around and completely at the mercy of an enemy Marine commander to be perfectly understandable.

[Gree]

The thing is, who cares Guilliman wasn't stomping all over the arch-enemy at the end of the level? It's incredibly fan-boyish to demand he is unbeatable unless facing someone of godlike stature.

 

I don't know about you, but I expect Guilliman to at least do something awesome in his introductory novel.

 

I mean, Sanguinius killed a super-bloodthirster appearantly in Fear to Tread if I heard right. Lorgar beat a Bloodthirster. Russ defeated Magnus. Fulgrim beat an Avatar, a Wraithlord and Ferrus Mannus in his novel (with some daemonic help I admit). Corax had all sorts of epically awesome stuff in Raven's Flight and Deliverance Lost.

 

Guilliman is a bit lacking by comparison. I don't want him to be unbeatable, I just want him to have stuff worthy of what his brothers are doing.

[Capt. Taurus]

Am I the only person wondering with the direction the HH is going that the ultimate ninja vs pirate fight would have to be any Space Wolf as the now revealed "greatest of all" Legion vs. some schmoe "infused with Chaos sorcery"?

 

In fact why doesn't Chaos in 40k times simply supercharge some traitor Astartes like they did with Horus or Kor Phaeron and have them simply clobber the Imperium that is now deprived of the Emperor and any loyal primarchs? Why stop with just one or two guys? Why not supercharge an army of them?

 

I know, I know..."suspension of disbelief" and all that but seriously when you have not even a real Space Marine that can whip a Primarch in three hits and had amply opportunity to kill him simply because he was sippin' "Chaos sorcery" then the mind boggles at the logic behind it.

 

THAT

 

Besides, has anybody considered that the encounter between Kor Phaeron and Guilliman renders other parts of KNF moot!? I mean we are to assume that Guilliman as a Primarch can survive the battle against a Daemon unleashed against him by Lorgar then walk around in the vacuum of Space and while doing so slaughter an entire strike force of Word Bearers but along comes grandpa Phaeron and game over??

 

Talk about poor writing, that is not the kind of inconsistent BS i would have expected of Abnett, someone else comes to my mind but that guy would have made Guilliman consume the WB fleet with lightning strikes from his arse.

[Capt. Taurus]

Double post sorry.

[Antarius]

Out of curiosity, would it have changed anything for the people who have a problem with this if RG had gone down (to later get up again) to three shots from a lascannon?

Probably would annoy a few people i would assume as a Lascannon shot tends to kill pretty much anything on contact, so taking three shots would have pretty much burned him away to nothing.

Yeah.

It's just that (quite apart from agreeing completely with Captain Idaho on the silliness of it all), as far as I can tell Guilliman is hit thrice by what is effectively a ranged weapon of enormous power. I just don't see how his primarch status was supposed to keep that from happening or how it supposedly diminishes him. I mean it's not like he arm-wrestles Kor Phaeron and loses (but then of course, he doesn't lose his fight with Kor Phaeron in KNF, so the whole discussion about the indignity of his loss is a bit weird).

[Captain Idaho]

The thing is, who cares Guilliman wasn't stomping all over the arch-enemy at the end of the level? It's incredibly fan-boyish to demand he is unbeatable unless facing someone of godlike stature.

 

I don't know about you, but I expect Guilliman to at least do something awesome in his introductory novel.

 

I mean, Sanguinius killed a super-bloodthirster appearantly in Fear to Tread if I heard right. Lorgar beat a Bloodthirster. Russ defeated Magnus. Fulgrim beat an Avatar, a Wraithlord and Ferrus Mannus in his novel (with some daemonic help I admit). Corax had all sorts of epically awesome stuff in Raven's Flight and Deliverance Lost.

 

Guilliman is a bit lacking by comparison. I don't want him to be unbeatable, I just want him to have stuff worthy of what his brothers are doing.

 

Gulliman was not lacking at all. I do admit there is an element of what you consider "awesome" though. Guilliman in Know No Fear was full of character, was a brilliant intellect and mastermind, plus heroic and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Not to mention he favoured an aggressive, fierce and almost barbaric when he tore through the Word Bearers.

 

It's not important to me that he (or any Primarch) has to take part in an ultimate clash between good and evil situation, to prove himself. It feels superficial to artificially set up such a clash in an esteemed series like the Heresy, and really shallow from a writer/reader perspective.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The thing is, who cares Guilliman wasn't stomping all over the arch-enemy at the end of the level? It's incredibly fan-boyish to demand he is unbeatable unless facing someone of godlike stature.

 

I don't know about you, but I expect Guilliman to at least do something awesome in his introductory novel.

 

I mean, Sanguinius killed a super-bloodthirster appearantly in Fear to Tread if I heard right. Lorgar beat a Bloodthirster. Russ defeated Magnus. Fulgrim beat an Avatar, a Wraithlord and Ferrus Mannus in his novel (with some daemonic help I admit). Corax had all sorts of epically awesome stuff in Raven's Flight and Deliverance Lost.

 

Guilliman is a bit lacking by comparison. I don't want him to be unbeatable, I just want him to have stuff worthy of what his brothers are doing.

 

RB was written very well in KNF I think.

 

The point of RB and the Ultramarines is that they don't need any uber-awesome, super-saiya, one-shot-kill nonesense to make them good. RB and his Ultramarines are the very embodiment of a professional force of supremely trained stormtroopers.

 

Like any good military they can operate without their leadership and still win. After Sanguinius gets his back broken, his entire legion go on a berserk killing spree! RB's boys adapt and overcome even when seperated from their command stucture and in KNF this aspect of the Ultramarines is shown for the war-winning advantage it really is.

 

And all of this is distilled in RB and his scrap with kor Phaeron. RB is NOT Angron or Russ, he is one of the Imperiums finest generals and the scond most stubborn creature that draws breath (Dorn has to take first prize for that).

 

RB's world has come crashing down around his ears! Brother Astartes has turned on fello Astartes, A Brother legion has come to Calth under a flag of peace and has laid waste to the Ultramarines fleet and orbital assets. His legion is on the backfoot and he has no communication, no way to direct and lead his sons. Further to this, his foe has shown a grasp of warp power he has never seen before, madness made flesh and Kor Phaeron has proven to have abilities and power that RB never even suspected. He's been blindsided, humbled and humiliated.

 

A lesser creature would be broken, would beg for Kor Phaeron to strike, to end his life. Yet RB does not, he remains bent but unbroken and turns defeat into victory.

 

If RB had been portrayed as an unbreakable uber-awesome, killing machine of unstoppable death, it would of NOT been RB. Turning weakness and defeat into the seeds of strength and victory is what the Ultrasmufs are all about and KNF was an excellent portrayla of their defining character.