Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Gree]

Gulliman was not lacking at all. I do admit there is an element of what you consider "awesome" though. Guilliman in Know No Fear was full of character, was a brilliant intellect and mastermind, plus heroic and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Not to mention he favoured an aggressive, fierce and almost barbaric when he tore through the Word Bearers.

 

Tell me, where was that shown? What briliant strategies did our esteemed Primarch conduct? What does did he slay? Did he do anything that another Primarch could not have done? Where was this brilliant intellect shown?

 

I find really nothing to cheer about in this novel. It's a classic case of ''show, not tell''

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Gulliman was not lacking at all. I do admit there is an element of what you consider "awesome" though. Guilliman in Know No Fear was full of character, was a brilliant intellect and mastermind, plus heroic and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Not to mention he favoured an aggressive, fierce and almost barbaric when he tore through the Word Bearers.

 

Tell me, where was that shown? What briliant strategies did our esteemed Primarch conduct? What does did he slay? Did he do anything that another Primarch could not have done? Where was this brilliant intellect shown?

 

I find really nothing to cheer about in this novel. It's a classic case of ''show, not tell''

 

I'm starting to wonder if you actualy understand what makes the Ultramrines who they are.

[Gree]

Gulliman was not lacking at all. I do admit there is an element of what you consider "awesome" though. Guilliman in Know No Fear was full of character, was a brilliant intellect and mastermind, plus heroic and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Not to mention he favoured an aggressive, fierce and almost barbaric when he tore through the Word Bearers.

 

Tell me, where was that shown? What briliant strategies did our esteemed Primarch conduct? What does did he slay? Did he do anything that another Primarch could not have done? Where was this brilliant intellect shown?

 

I find really nothing to cheer about in this novel. It's a classic case of ''show, not tell''

 

I'm starting to wonder if you actualy understand what the Ultramarines even are.

 

I could easily ask you the same question.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Gulliman was not lacking at all. I do admit there is an element of what you consider "awesome" though. Guilliman in Know No Fear was full of character, was a brilliant intellect and mastermind, plus heroic and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Not to mention he favoured an aggressive, fierce and almost barbaric when he tore through the Word Bearers.

 

Tell me, where was that shown? What briliant strategies did our esteemed Primarch conduct? What does did he slay? Did he do anything that another Primarch could not have done? Where was this brilliant intellect shown?

 

I find really nothing to cheer about in this novel. It's a classic case of ''show, not tell''

 

I'm starting to wonder if you actualy understand what the Ultramarines even are.

 

I could easily ask you the same question.

 

Difference between us is i can answer it.

[Gree]

Gulliman was not lacking at all. I do admit there is an element of what you consider "awesome" though. Guilliman in Know No Fear was full of character, was a brilliant intellect and mastermind, plus heroic and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Not to mention he favoured an aggressive, fierce and almost barbaric when he tore through the Word Bearers.

 

Tell me, where was that shown? What briliant strategies did our esteemed Primarch conduct? What does did he slay? Did he do anything that another Primarch could not have done? Where was this brilliant intellect shown?

 

I find really nothing to cheer about in this novel. It's a classic case of ''show, not tell''

 

I'm starting to wonder if you actualy understand what the Ultramarines even are.

 

I could easily ask you the same question.

 

Difference between us is i can answer it.

 

You ate unfortunately wrong. I can answer that question as well.

 

Of course such an answer is also rather subjective as well.

[Legatus]

RB was written very well in KNF I think.

 

The point of RB and the Ultramarines is that they don't need any uber-awesome, super-saiya, one-shot-kill nonesense to make them good. RB and his Ultramarines are the very embodiment of a professional force of supremely trained stormtroopers.

 

Like any good military they can operate without their leadership and still win. After Sanguinius gets his back broken, his entire legion go on a berserk killing spree! RB's boys adapt and overcome even when seperated from their command stucture and in KNF this aspect of the Ultramarines is shown for the war-winning advantage it really is.

 

And all of this is distilled in RB and his scrap with kor Phaeron. RB is NOT Angron or Russ, he is one of the Imperiums finest generals and the scond most stubborn creature that draws breath (Dorn has to take first prize for that).

 

RB's world has come crashing down around his ears! Brother Astartes has turned on fello Astartes, A Brother legion has come to Calth under a flag of peace and has laid waste to the Ultramarines fleet and orbital assets. His legion is on the backfoot and he has no communication, no way to direct and lead his sons. Further to this, his foe has shown a grasp of warp power he has never seen before, madness made flesh and Kor Phaeron has proven to have abilities and power that RB never even suspected. He's been blindsided, humbled and humiliated.

 

A lesser creature would be broken, would beg for Kor Phaeron to strike, to end his life. Yet RB does not, he remains bent but unbroken and turns defeat into victory.

 

If RB had been portrayed as an unbreakable uber-awesome, killing machine of unstoppable death, it would of NOT been RB. Turning weakness and defeat into the seeds of strength and victory is what the Ultrasmufs are all about and KNF was an excellent portrayla of their defining character.

Man, I should have read that book. What's it called?

 

 

---

 

Tell me, where was that shown? What briliant strategies did our esteemed Primarch conduct? What does did he slay? Did he do anything that another Primarch could not have done? Where was this brilliant intellect shown?

Ah, at the beginning of the book, where he tracks all the planet's logistics reports rainman style. I guess Abnett figured that would be enough to establish that Guilliman is a cool dude, so he didn't get to do anything impressive for the rest of the novel.

[Gree]

EDIT: Never mind.

[Captain Idaho]

Gulliman was not lacking at all. I do admit there is an element of what you consider "awesome" though. Guilliman in Know No Fear was full of character, was a brilliant intellect and mastermind, plus heroic and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Not to mention he favoured an aggressive, fierce and almost barbaric when he tore through the Word Bearers.

 

Tell me, where was that shown? What briliant strategies did our esteemed Primarch conduct? What does did he slay? Did he do anything that another Primarch could not have done? Where was this brilliant intellect shown?

 

I find really nothing to cheer about in this novel. It's a classic case of ''show, not tell''

 

Throughout the first part of the novel you are frequently shown Guilliman's ability to micromanage the logistical chaos of the two largest Legions and their fleets He knows his men and even his enemies (remember his realisation the Word Bearers were like a pack of wolves around him, though he refused to believe the situation?). It is repeatedly explained about his skill and position next to his brothers, including why he has grown beyond Warmaster. We are told how perfect Ultramar is in the eyes of the Emperor, and how Guilliman is training his men for after the Great Crusade is over (i.e. how visionary he is). He survives what was considered certain death (i.e, the explosion). You also see him surviving in a vaccuum, unarmed and still killing fully armed Word Bearers as if it was nothing. He later goes on to smash apart Word Bearers in an assault on a full Battleship consisting of thousands of enemey. Lastly, you are told by the narrator that, contrary to common misconception, he was also a peerless fighter matched only by a few of his brothers.

 

But if you really want an obvious, shallow confrontation against a "worthy" foe, then I guess yes, Guilliman doesn't do anything, despite all these other points I just mentioned!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Gulliman was not lacking at all. I do admit there is an element of what you consider "awesome" though. Guilliman in Know No Fear was full of character, was a brilliant intellect and mastermind, plus heroic and not afraid to get his hands dirty. Not to mention he favoured an aggressive, fierce and almost barbaric when he tore through the Word Bearers.

 

Tell me, where was that shown? What briliant strategies did our esteemed Primarch conduct? What does did he slay? Did he do anything that another Primarch could not have done? Where was this brilliant intellect shown?

 

I find really nothing to cheer about in this novel. It's a classic case of ''show, not tell''

 

Throughout the first part of the novel you are frequently shown Guilliman's ability to micromanage the logistical chaos of the two largest Legions and their fleets He knows his men and even his enemies (remember his realisation the Word Bearers were like a pack of wolves around him, though he refused to believe the situation?). It is repeatedly explained about his skill and position next to his brothers, including why he has grown beyond Warmaster. We are told how perfect Ultramar is in the eyes of the Emperor, and how Guilliman is training his men for after the Great Crusade is over (i.e. how visionary he is). He survives what was considered certain death (i.e, the explosion). You also see him surviving in a vaccuum, unarmed and still killing fully armed Word Bearers as if it was nothing. He later goes on to smash apart Word Bearers in an assault on a full Battleship consisting of thousands of enemey. Lastly, you are told by the narrator that, contrary to common misconception, he was also a peerless fighter matched only by a few of his brothers.

 

But if you really want an obvious, shallow confrontation against a "worthy" foe, then I guess yes, Guilliman doesn't do anything, despite all these other points I just mentioned!

 

This is why I love KNF so much.

[Gree]

Throughout the first part of the novel you are frequently shown Guilliman's ability to micromanage the logistical chaos of the two largest Legions and their fleets He knows his men and even his enemies (remember his realisation the Word Bearers were like a pack of wolves around him, though he refused to believe the situation?). It is repeatedly explained about his skill and position next to his brothers, including why he has grown beyond Warmaster. We are told how perfect Ultramar is in the eyes of the Emperor, and how Guilliman is training his men for after the Great Crusade is over (i.e. how visionary he is).

 

A classic example of ''show not tell'' what brilliant strategies did he perform in battle? We are told he is awesome. We are not actually shown that.

 

You also see him surviving in a vaccuum, unarmed and still killing fully armed Word Bearers as if it was nothing. He later goes on to smash apart Word Bearers in an assault on a full Battleship consisting of thousands of enemey.

 

That is also pretty generic for a Primarch, as Legatus noted.

 

Lastly, you are told by the narrator that, contrary to common misconception, he was also a peerless fighter matched only by a few of his brothers.

 

Another case of ''show not tell''. Forgive me for not taking the narrator very seriously when he is promptly dispatched by Kor Phaeron, while Kor Phaeron's master defeats a Bloodthrister and is defeated by Corax.

[marshal seanisi]

For those of you trying to convince the Ultra Fanboys on this forum that KNF was a good read and depicted a true vision of how a full scale traitorous and surprise attack would have played out.... You're waisting your time. Anything but a novel dripping with how great and unmatched RG and the Ultras are is unacceptable in their eyes. Reading this thread has made it abundantly clear how narrow minded some of the fanboys are on this forum. I for one can appreciate how Abnett infused real personality into the UM's. It made for a more believable depiction of the events on Calth.

[Gree]

Actually that's no an omnipotent narrator. That's Thiel describing Guilliman.

 

"The primarch is, of course, their greatest asset, Thiel realises. Not because of his physical superiority, though that is hard to overestimate.

 

It is because he is a primarch. Because he is Roboute Guilliman. Because he is simply one of the greatest warriors in the Imperium. How many beings could measure favourably against him? Honestly? All seventeen of his brothers? Not all seventeen. Nothing like all seventeen. Four or five at best. At best."

[Legatus]

Actually that's no an omnipotent narrator. That's Thiel describing Guilliman.

That's what I thought.

 

 

---

 

For those of you trying to convince the Ultra Fanboys on this forum that KNF was a good read and depicted a true vision of how a full scale traitorous and surprise attack would have played out.... You're waisting your time. Anything but a novel dripping with how great and unmatched RG and the Ultras are is unacceptable in their eyes. Reading this thread has made it abundantly clear how narrow minded some of the fanboys are on this forum. I for one can appreciate how Abnett infused real personality into the UM's. It made for a more believable depiction of the events on Calth.

I am using that post as a representation for a tired argument that had been brought up several times before.

 

It will not be a healthy discussion if one side complains about how Guilliman was slapped around by a Space Marine Commander or how any sense of accomplishment that had been described in previous accounts of the Battle have been written out of the conflict in the novel and the other side then comes back rolling their eyes about how the other guys just want to see the Ultramarines or Guilliman being described as unbeatable.

Edit: You are not engaging in productive discourse at that point. And it is especially regrettable if such an imagined attitude of "allways wanting to see the Ultramarines/Guilliman as perfect and unbeatable" is then ascribed to a "Ultramarine fanboy community" of this Forum.

 

Accomplishments that had previously been described as part of the Battle being removed in a newly published novel is a legitimate complaint, if there ever was one. So is if a favourite Character makes a poor show against an expected inferior foe, especially if said favourite character was never given an opportunity to shine at any point of the novel.

 

An author should be able to "add character" without removing accomplishments, and he should be able to "add character" and still have a character do something cool. And no, killing ordinary Space Marines does not qualify as a cool deed for a Primarch.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

For those of you trying to convince the Ultra Fanboys on this forum that KNF was a good read and depicted a true vision of how a full scale traitorous and surprise attack would have played out.... You're waisting your time. Anything but a novel dripping with how great and unmatched RG and the Ultras are is unacceptable in their eyes. Reading this thread has made it abundantly clear how narrow minded some of the fanboys are on this forum. I for one can appreciate how Abnett infused real personality into the UM's. It made for a more believable depiction of the events on Calth.

 

Yeah, ironic in a way.

 

The fanboys are up in arms that their precious legion has been shown to have weaknesses and completely ignoring the brilliant portrayal of how they overcome thoses weaknesses to secure victory.

 

I was one of those who couldn't stand the ultrasmurfs and how they where depicted as the awesome, ubermensch of the astartes. So boring and without depth.

 

KNF got me into liking the Ultramarines and from there I looked into their fluff more closely and saw beyond the poster-boy crap.

 

Fanboyz wanted fanfiction, Abnett delivered a novel with depth and scope.

[overloard]

Yeah, ironic in a way.

 

The fanboys are up in arms that their precious legion has been shown to have weaknesses and completely ignoring the brilliant portrayal of how they overcome thoses weaknesses to secure victory.

 

I was one of those who couldn't stand the ultrasmurfs and how they where depicted as the awesome, ubermensch of the astartes. So boring and without depth.

 

KNF got me into liking the Ultramarines and from there I looked into their fluff more closely and saw beyond the poster-boy crap.

 

Fanboyz wanted fanfiction, Abnett delivered a novel with depth and scope.

 

So what was so special about Ultras in KNF that made you change your opinion of them? The fact that they were defeated in their own book? It surely rids them of all poster-boy crap. Apart from that, they seemed pretty generic to me,with most of characters built from STC №045 "Bad-ass space marine captain".

[pingo]

Let's not turn this into a 'fanboys' argument. It's basically name-calling and does no one any favours. At all.

 

The fact that they were defeated in their own book?

Defeated? Don't think we resolved that one :sweat:

 

Besides, even a loser can be interesting and fun.

[Ammonius]

According to what I read, the Ultramarines still have the Calth engagement "on the clock", so at least according to them, no, they haven't lost because it isn't over yet.

 

Of course, the Word Bearers would have a different answer, and until one side or the other is completely annihilated (leaving the victors to close that chapter of history) no one has conclusively won or lost anything.

 

Empty victories and incomplete defeats are what keeps the 40K universe in a state of constant war.

[pingo]

Empty victories and incomplete defeats are what keeps the 40K universe in a state of constant war.

Personally, I feel that it's this kind of outcome which makes for fun 40K fluff. It's the fluff without that nuance that I find the most uninspiring. KNF worked for me on that front.

[Captain Idaho]

Actually that's no an omnipotent narrator. That's Thiel describing Guilliman.

 

"The primarch is, of course, their greatest asset, Thiel realises. Not because of his physical superiority, though that is hard to overestimate.

 

It is because he is a primarch. Because he is Roboute Guilliman. Because he is simply one of the greatest warriors in the Imperium. How many beings could measure favourably against him? Honestly? All seventeen of his brothers? Not all seventeen. Nothing like all seventeen. Four or five at best. At best."

 

Actually I couldn't remember the exact text on this situation so I beg your pardon, but you do a diservice to Thiel and Guilliman's standing:

 

Thiel is brought into the novel as the "truthsayer". He has an honesty and experience that saw him censored earlier in the novel yet he goes on to become visionary and wiser than even Guilliman during the novel.

 

Sure he could be mistake, bias even. But he certainly wasn't a fool and couldn't be THAT mistaken of his Primarch's standing amongst his peers. Even Lorgar's sycophants in The First Heretic were honest in their appraisal of Lorgar's prowas.

 

Guilliman wouldn't have a reputation across the galaxy for nothing.

 

Besides, this is a moot point compared to all the other points raised.

 

Does it really matter to have been told but not shown something? I mean, really? It's shallow writing to spell things out for the reader. Are people that insecure about the Ultramarines they just want to see undebateable success?

[Gree]

Actually I couldn't remember the exact text on this situation so I beg your pardon, but you do a diservice to Thiel and Guilliman's standing:

 

Thiel is brought into the novel as the "truthsayer". He has an honesty and experience that saw him censored earlier in the novel yet he goes on to become visionary and wiser than even Guilliman during the novel.

 

Sure he could be mistake, bias even. But he certainly wasn't a fool and couldn't be THAT mistaken of his Primarch's standing amongst his peers. Even Lorgar's sycophants in The First Heretic were honest in their appraisal of Lorgar's prowas.

 

They were arguably truthfully because they were arguably manipulating Lorgar and didn’t want him killed.

 

But of course a long-ranking sergeant would probably think his Primarch is awesome. I doubt Thiel is an expert on the combat prowess of every other Primarch. Unless you think Thiel knows how well the other Primarchs fight then he is not speaking from an objective viewpoint.

 

But what I do see is Guilliman being hyped up and then Guilliman being knocked on his butt and at the mercy of Kor Phaeron. That’s not exactly the most shining example of proof to back up said claim of him being one of the best fighters amoung the primarchs. Based on what I have seen I cannot honestly put Guilliman in the same class as Bloodthirster-slaying Sanguinius or killmonster psyker-slayer Leman Russ.

 

Does it really matter to have been told but not shown something? I mean, really? It's shallow writing to spell things out for the reader. Are people that insecure about the Ultramarines they just want to see undebateable success?

 

....Do you know what the wirting concept of ''Show don't tell'' is? No, this is not an insult. I'm honestly curious. That is one of the key aspects of writing. You show us why a character is cool or competent instead of just telling us they are.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility

 

It's one of the common pitfalls in fiction. The above article lists plenty of examples.

 

It's not shallow writing to show a character's abilites. It's actually one of the first and most vital things they hammer into you in any creative writing or literature course. A certain amount of exposition can be used yes, but you don't tell us just how awesome a character us and never really show that.

 

Otherwise you get a character that is described as being awesome or good at something, but their actual performance leaves much to be desired. Like for example someone described as a great swordsman, but they lose every swordfight they come across, or a person mentioned to be a great football player, but their actual game performance is rather average.

 

I mean, one would naturally expect a novel about the Ultramarines to show them actually doing all the awesome stuff they are hyped up to do.

[Legatus]

It is also, I have to point out, one criticism I have occasionally seen levelled against the Ultramarines. GW always tells us they are so great, but they never really explain why.

 

I had complained earlier in the thread that 'Know No Fear' sadly failed completely to depict the specific doctrines of the Ultramarines. A missed opportunity. All those interpretations how the Ultramarines managed to regroup their forces after suffering a surprise attack are neat, but they are projections onto the novel. That is not what the novel describes. The novel describes a Space Marine sergeant running from the advancing cultist and Word Bearer hordes, trying to stay alive. He manages to stay alive, as do several other groups of Ultramarines. You could have put any Legion in their place and events would have played out very much the same. And once some elements of that "generic Legion" had managed to link up, they would have staged an attack against that one obvious installation that has the power to instantly win the battle.

 

- "stay alive"

 

- "once enought survivors have linked up, attack obvious target"

 

Every Legion would have done it the same.

 

The Ultramarines do talk a lot about "theoreticals" and "practicals", but that never really ammounts to anything important. It is just quirky mannerism thrown in. (...And never heard of before.)

[pingo]

This is all well and good, but how long do you want the novel to be? An author can be too board or try and tell too big a story, and get in a horrible mess.

 

Is it not smart to focus on smaller, more personal, tales?

 

EDIT: Actually, I think the specific traits associated with the Ultramarines are probably the hardest to write about. How does one write entertainingly about grand strategy without turning your novel into dry descriptions of fictional combat situations? How does one write about dramatic logistical master-strokes? Not saying such things are impossible, but I wouldn't fancy the task and I have 3 cabinets full of Ultramarines!

[Legatus]

I think that even more personal stories could have been told over the backdrop of a grander conflict. As the novel turned out, it seems that all of Guilliman's previous exploits were removed just so the narrative could partially focus on him. We get to see the actions he personally takes, and that would perhaps have been difficult if he had directed the ground battle and led several fleet attacks. The conflict was reduced significantly in scope, so it seems, so that the story could be told closer to Guilliman. Not a good trade-off in my book, as it has the two major downsides of diminishing the event by reducing it in scope on the one hand and skewing our picture of a legendary Primarch figure by being too "personal" on the other.

 

The Primarch issue is one of personal preferences. Perhaps some like the Primarchs as more active and "soapy" characters. Personally, I prefer the figures of legend. The scope issue is hardly debatable, though. Who would prefer a less epic event? I can understand if some people are willing to trade off scope in favour of a more personalised narrative, but I don't believe that someone would actually prefer the battle to be less monumental in scope.

 

Perhaps the book could have focused more on Captain Ventanus (who is credited as the Hero of Calth anyway), and only have brought up Guilliman in few occasions. Then the scope of the previous accounts of the Battle could have remained intact, and Guilliman would not have been slapped around by the final Boss, since Ventanus as the protagonist would have been in his place.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Alpharius Omegon was arguably outmatched in sword play by a baseline standard human.

 

I know I'm a page too late and it's off-topic, but I just wanted to point out that this comparison is false. That wasn't Alpharius or Omegon; it was Sheed Ranko, who while awesome, certainly was not a Primarch.

[Legatus]

EDIT: Actually, I think the specific traits associated with the Ultramarines are probably the hardest to write about. How does one write entertainingly about grand strategy without turning your novel into dry descriptions of fictional combat situations? How does one write about dramatic logistical master-strokes? Not saying such things are impossible, but I wouldn't fancy the task and I have 3 cabinets full of Ultramarines!

As I had explained earlier in this thread, I think that would have been possible by adhering to the Collected Visions account of the Battle. The account describes how the scattered pockets of defenders eventually manage to link up and muster counter attacks against the Word Bearers. Later, Guilliman is described as sending orders to the defenders on the ground. He analyzes their situations "in lightning speed", and each isolated group is employed effectively. He does this all while simultaneously leading hit and run attacks against the vastly superior Word Bearers fleet, which is said to only be possible due to the disciplined crews of the Ultramarine ships.

 

Those were remarkable feats of organisation and discipline. Effectively directing the scattered defenders and coordinating their efforts. For the small defense groups to link up and coordinate with the other defenders would require high discipline and reliance on protocols. The novel barely hints at such efforts, even if people ascribe them to the novel. But in the novel, Guilliman only links up with some defense groups on the ground very briefly before he leads the attack against the defense grid installation.

 

That would have shown the doctrines of the Ultramarines. They did not prevail because the Ultramarine Assault squads tore into the Word Bearers, not because the Ultramarines were so well trained that 1 Ultramarine was worth 3 Word Bearer Marines, and not because the Ultramarines were so smart that they ran circles around the traitors. Instead, they triumphed because they managed to operate effecively even under extreme circumstances.