Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Captain Idaho]

Actually I couldn't remember the exact text on this situation so I beg your pardon, but you do a diservice to Thiel and Guilliman's standing:

 

Thiel is brought into the novel as the "truthsayer". He has an honesty and experience that saw him censored earlier in the novel yet he goes on to become visionary and wiser than even Guilliman during the novel.

 

Sure he could be mistake, bias even. But he certainly wasn't a fool and couldn't be THAT mistaken of his Primarch's standing amongst his peers. Even Lorgar's sycophants in The First Heretic were honest in their appraisal of Lorgar's prowas.

 

They were arguably truthfully because they were arguably manipulating Lorgar and didn’t want him killed.

 

But of course a long-ranking sergeant would probably think his Primarch is awesome. I doubt Thiel is an expert on the combat prowess of every other Primarch. Unless you think Thiel knows how well the other Primarchs fight then he is not speaking from an objective viewpoint.

 

But what I do see is Guilliman being hyped up and then Guilliman being knocked on his butt and at the mercy of Kor Phaeron. That’s not exactly the most shining example of proof to back up said claim of him being one of the best fighters amoung the primarchs. Based on what I have seen I cannot honestly put Guilliman in the same class as Bloodthirster-slaying Sanguinius or killmonster psyker-slayer Leman Russ.

 

Does it really matter to have been told but not shown something? I mean, really? It's shallow writing to spell things out for the reader. Are people that insecure about the Ultramarines they just want to see undebateable success?

 

....Do you know what the wirting concept of ''Show don't tell'' is? No, this is not an insult. I'm honestly curious. That is one of the key aspects of writing. You show us why a character is cool or competent instead of just telling us they are.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility

 

It's one of the common pitfalls in fiction. The above article lists plenty of examples.

 

It's not shallow writing to show a character's abilites. It's actually one of the first and most vital things they hammer into you in any creative writing or literature course. A certain amount of exposition can be used yes, but you don't tell us just how awesome a character us and never really show that.

 

Otherwise you get a character that is described as being awesome or good at something, but their actual performance leaves much to be desired. Like for example someone described as a great swordsman, but they lose every swordfight they come across, or a person mentioned to be a great football player, but their actual game performance is rather average.

 

I mean, one would naturally expect a novel about the Ultramarines to show them actually doing all the awesome stuff they are hyped up to do.

 

Ah I think we've stumbled across the crux of the disagreement here:

 

Some saw Guilliman's defeat as being taken down a peg after the hype, whilst others saw it as demonstrating just how powerful Chaos/Kor Phaeron was (having defeated this hyped fighter).

 

With that distinction, our opinions will likely never marry up, is that fair to say? I felt it was elevation of Chaos Kor Phaeron to Primarch power (within certain scenarios of course) whilst others saw it as lowering Guilliman to "mere" Chaos Sorceror levels.

[DIDM]

since the story is not over I don't think anyone knows for sure

[A D-B]

Holy terrifying thread, Batman.

 

Betrayer will add some nuance to this, I think - specifically in regards to what Lorgar and the other Word Bearers thought. Unremembered Empire will add even more, as will Mark of Calth.

[MadDoc]

Holy terrifying thread, Batman.

 

Betrayer will add some nuance to this, I think - specifically in regards to what Lorgar and the other Word Bearers thought. Unremembered Empire will add even more, as will Mark of Calth.

Aaron to the rescue... :devil: thank god.

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

Holy terrifying thread, Batman.

 

Betrayer will add some nuance to this, I think - specifically in regards to what Lorgar and the other Word Bearers thought. Unremembered Empire will add even more, as will Mark of Calth.

Aaron to the rescue... :P thank god.

^This

 

:devil:

[Wade Garrett]

The first two are not quite the same. In the first it was not an actual fight, it was more like Magnus's daemonic essence half-manifesting before Rangar threw a relic weapon at it.

 

An ordinary Space Wolf banishing a Daemon Primarch back to the Warp by throwing a spear at him/it isn't the equivalent of the Ultramarines Primarch getting bug zapped by a Chaos Sorcerer? Cue Wolf, Thousand Son, Ultramarine, AND Word Bearer rage! :devil:

 

I was a bit "iffy" on the Alpharius one (clarification, I'm referring to the fight between the Alpha Primarch and the Lucifer Black Dinas in Legion, not anything that happened in the Serpent Below) but I really can't see catching an enemy's weapon in his pectorals as Alpharius's style. If it was Angron or Mortarion, maybe, but not Alpharius. Cue Alpha Legion "Our primarch's style is WHATEVER WINS THE FIGHT!" posts.

 

While away from the keyboard, I have thought of a couple more examples as well.

While we're discussing the Death Guard, didn't Typhus unleash Nurglite sorcery and flatten not just Moratarion, but the entire Death Guard Legion?

Also, the people claiming any random Thousand Son could out magic Kor and Erebus either forgot or didn't read False Gods, where Magnus tries to take on Erebus during the temptaton of Horus, and is soundly rebuffed by the First Chaplain, with even less effort than Kor showed against Rob.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I was a bit "iffy" on the Alpharius one (clarification, I'm referring to the fight between the Alpha Primarch and the Lucifer Black Dinas in Legion, not anything that happened in the Serpent Below) but I really can't see catching an enemy's weapon in his pectorals as Alpharius's style.

 

 

Yeah, I know that. Dinas Chayne wasn't fighting one of the Twins, he was fighting Ranko. I can prove it if you need me to; PM me though if you're interested, I don't want to derail the thread.

[Gree]

An ordinary Space Wolf banishing a Daemon Primarch back to the Warp by throwing a spear at him/it isn't the equivalent of the Ultramarines Primarch getting bug zapped by a Chaos Sorcerer? Cue Wolf, Thousand Son, Ultramarine, AND Word Bearer rage! ;)

 

It's not at all. It's basically Magnus half-manifesting. It's not a fight at all. There's no indication that Magnus could even use his powers or fight back at that point. That''s completely different from Guilliman and Kor Pharon facing off an an actual fight.

 

I was a bit "iffy" on the Alpharius one (clarification, I'm referring to the fight between the Alpha Primarch and the Lucifer Black Dinas in Legion, not anything that happened in the Serpent Below) but I really can't see catching an enemy's weapon in his pectorals as Alpharius's style. If it was Angron or Mortarion, maybe, but not Alpharius. Cue Alpha Legion "Our primarch's style is WHATEVER WINS THE FIGHT!" posts.

 

I was reffering to that fight as well, and Alpharius still won. It never resulted in a fallek Alpharius while Dinas deliberately spared his life.

 

While we're discussing the Death Guard, didn't Typhus unleash Nurglite sorcery and flatten not just Moratarion, but the entire Death Guard Legion?

 

No, the Death Guard was afflicted by a warp plague, but Typhus hardly singled handledly took out an entire Legion.

 

Also, the people claiming any random Thousand Son could out magic Kor and Erebus either forgot or didn't read False Gods, where Magnus tries to take on Erebus during the temptaton of Horus, and is soundly rebuffed by the First Chaplain, with even less effort than Kor showed against Rob.

 

That was'nt really an actual fight. Magnus was trying to affect things half a galaxy away on Prospero. That's not the same thing as Guilliman and Kor Phaeron facing off in a physical fight in the same room.

 

You really don't seem to understand my point at all. None of your examples are really comparable at all to the point I'm trying to make. Most of your examples aren't even really actual fights.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Mods, if the opening segment of this post is construed as a personal attack (think it was Captain Idaho who cleaned it earlier), then apologies, will edit it accordingly but after seeing this...don't know what to call it....attitude/behaviour develop on yet another thread, have to say this:

 

 

Legreetus, yes the two of you, go read/listen to all of the HH series please before posting in the HH section, as I can't give either of your opinions/theories/personal crusades any merit due to the amount of times I have seen within your posts a variation of the phrase "I've heard that..." or "according to..." .

 

Why you may ask?

 

It's because you are relying upon half-remembered, second-hand and in many instances, quotes/excerpts that have often been selected to fit self-serving agendas instead of looking at them in the context of the whole story, much like how the novel Know No Fear is only a jigsaw piece in the events that take place in Ultramar that when put together with the rest of the publications (see ADB's post), will make it all that bit clearer and avoid any hypocritical twisting.

 

The Kor vs Guilliman is the ultimate example of "if you knock me down, better make sure I stay down", a key theme of the Ultramarines throughout the novel as well as another example of how the Word Bearers are further enhancing their pact with Chaos. Had it been some other WB other than Kor or Erebus who winded Guilliman, then I could see where the aggrievance may stem from but, due to the knowledge of the 40K "present" i.e. that Phaeron is still around, really don't get why there is an issue with him winding/paralysing Guilliman with essentially a warp-charged taser effect....

 

 

One other point to make about if Arhiman attacked Russ, would it have worked? Was of the impression that Russ was nearly as warp resistant as a pariah on the basis of the effect his howl has on the TS in A Thousand Sons

[Antarius]

It will not be a healthy discussion if one side complains about how Guilliman was slapped around by a Space Marine Commander or how any sense of accomplishment that had been described in previous accounts of the Battle have been written out of the conflict in the novel and the other side then comes back rolling their eyes about how the other guys just want to see the Ultramarines or Guilliman being described as unbeatable.

Edit: You are not engaging in productive discourse at that point. And it is especially regrettable if such an imagined attitude of "allways wanting to see the Ultramarines/Guilliman as perfect and unbeatable" is then ascribed to a "Ultramarine fanboy community" of this Forum.

 

Accomplishments that had previously been described as part of the Battle being removed in a newly published novel is a legitimate complaint, if there ever was one. So is if a favourite Character makes a poor show against an expected inferior foe, especially if said favourite character was never given an opportunity to shine at any point of the novel.

Two things Legatus.

 

First off, I agree completely that we shouldn't ascribe ulterior motives to others. However, I think it's worth mentioning that you yourself did so earlier (the whole "people just like it because the Ultramarines get beaten up" thing). I think it'd be best for the discussion if we all just dropped that kind of thing.

 

Secondly, with regards to your "expected inferior foe" point, I think Captain Idaho hit the nail on the head there. We all see Guilliman being beaten up (to the extent that getting shot down and then ripping the other guy's heart out is getting beaten) by someone expectedly inferior to him. Some of us then cry "foul", while others think "Hmm, Kor Phaeron must have been more powerful/had more tricks up his sleeve than we expected".

Whether there's any reconcilliation possible between those two views I don't know.

 

It is also, I have to point out, one criticism I have occasionally seen levelled against the Ultramarines. GW always tells us they are so great, but they never really explain why.

 

I had complained earlier in the thread that 'Know No Fear' sadly failed completely to depict the specific doctrines of the Ultramarines. A missed opportunity. All those interpretations how the Ultramarines managed to regroup their forces after suffering a surprise attack are neat, but they are projections onto the novel. That is not what the novel describes. The novel describes a Space Marine sergeant running from the advancing cultist and Word Bearer hordes, trying to stay alive. He manages to stay alive, as do several other groups of Ultramarines. You could have put any Legion in their place and events would have played out very much the same. And once some elements of that "generic Legion" had managed to link up, they would have staged an attack against that one obvious installation that has the power to instantly win the battle.

 

- "stay alive"

 

- "once enought survivors have linked up, attack obvious target"

 

Every Legion would have done it the same.

 

The Ultramarines do talk a lot about "theoreticals" and "practicals", but that never really ammounts to anything important. It is just quirky mannerism thrown in. (...And never heard of before.)

You don't agree with those of us who've said that no, every legion wouldn't have done the same at all? If so, could you elaborate?

 

That would have shown the doctrines of the Ultramarines. They did not prevail because the Ultramarine Assault squads tore into the Word Bearers, not because the Ultramarines were so well trained that 1 Ultramarine was worth 3 Word Bearer Marines, and not because the Ultramarines were so smart that they ran circles around the traitors. Instead, they triumphed because they managed to operate effecively even under extreme circumstances.

But wasn't that exactly what we got? The Ultramarines triumph against all odds because they do not lose their cool and manage to operate effectively under extreme circumstances. That was certainly the takeaway I got from KNF.

 

I will agree that the odds were stacked higher against the Ultras than they were in previous accounts, though. Maybe that is part of the disconnect as well?

I mean, I see the Ultramarines' survival and victory as a huge feat because the attack against them is laid out as being extremely well planned and devastating. They are effectively more than helpless to begin with, taking massive losses and having no operational capability when the attacks begin, which is something I don't think the earlier accounts of Calth show.

[Antarius]

That was'nt really an actual fight. Magnus was trying to affect things half a galaxy away on Prospero. That's not the same thing as Guilliman and Kor Phaeron facing off in a physical fight in the same room.

 

You really don't seem to understand my point at all. None of your examples are really comparable at all to the point I'm trying to make. Most of your examples aren't even really actual fights.

One last thing.

 

You keep framing this as an "actual" "physical" fight and dismissing comparisons because they aren't "really actual fights". But once again, if you read p. 383 where the alleged fight takes place, it's emphatically not an "actual" or "physical" fight at all. There's no square-off, no fight, no matching of "skill" or "power level" there at all.

 

Guilliman is shot down at range, never getting the chance to actually square off against Kor Phaeron. If he did you might have a point. As it is, what was any primarch supposed to do, barring great resistance to warp energy? All the primarchness in the world doesn't mean you can't get hit by ranged attacks (as for shrugging them off, well that's what he does).

 

Also, you keep on putting these weird delimitations on the "fight" between Guilliman and Kor Phaeron that you don't apply to other examples at all. For example, the conclusion to the fight is apparently off-limits which is sort of strange as that's usually how you determine the victor. Likewise, throwing a weapon at a Daemon Primarch doesn't count because it's "not an actual fight" and "Magnus couldn't fight back" -it sure doesn't sound very different from firing blasts of sorcery at a primarch who isn't within fighting range, but apparently that doesn't even merit consideration. And so on.

 

The thing is, you seem very determined to see this as a completely unprecedented attack on a primarch's objective "power level" (which is a very sketchy concept, to say the least). To the point where you're deliberately shutting out factors and comparisons that don't play into your narrative.

[Captain Idaho]

I think this thread has become a beast and is taking up a lot of time to manage. On the whole, good behaviour all round with only minor mishaps.

 

We are getting circular in this topic with Frater going over the same ground going over and over, so I think it's time to put the thread to rest. If you have a new point not yet discussed then PM myself and we can discuss re-opening it.