Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Wade Garrett]

I dunno. A D-B had hinted that the Ultramarines will be involved in more actions during the coming years of the Heresy, and will actually have some "cool" moments. (That's what Abnett had promised for 'Know No Fear' as well though, but that did not turn out well at all.) But so far, unfortunately, the Ultramarines have been treated pretty badly in those novels. Even by A D-B, even if he may not have intended it.

 

Unless there are some more A-D-B Horus Heresy novels out there I don't know about, I assume you're talking about the Ultramarines wrecking Monarchia and Guilliman snapping at Lorgar until he gets an Illuminarium to the chest?

 

When all I had to go by was the First Heretic and the prevailing popular opinion of the Ultramarines, I was of the opinion that Guilliman was simply that jerk older brother we've all wanted to smash in the solar plexus with a two handed spiked mace, but that's completely at odds with the way he's portrayed in Know No Fear. So what gives?

 

We have to remember that at the time he was talking to Lorgar, Rob just had to oversee his Legion reducing an Imperial world into rubble, not because of anything the people did, but because Lorgar and the XVII can't seem to take the Emperor's subtle hints (and not so subtle hints. And outright commands) to +STOP WORSHIPPING ME!+ From everything we've seen of him (novels, short stories. background lore) Rob was one of the most humane and decent of the Primarchs, who actually tried to use diplomacy and minimize collateral damage. Of course he's in a vile mood at Monarchia, this kind of operation is completely anathema to him and his troops.

 

He does the best he can to just wreck the infrastructure, not the inhabitants (by having Ultramarines fly Thunderhawks over all the planet telling people they have three days to evacuate the cities) but it's still a brutal and ruthless action, much more in line with how Angron or Curze does things. And then, after he's put up with all this FOR THE EMPEROR, without complaining too much, he has to deal with his baby brother rolling in the dirt and crying. Of course he's going to be a bit short with him. Who wouldn't?

[Legatus]

Their is nothing wrong with both Chaos and the Smurfs viewing the battle as a win- different sides can have different objectives after all.

I am not saying that both sides subjectively viewing the outcome of a campaign as a victory is not a plausible scenario. What I am saying is that previously the outcome of the Battle for Calth had unambiguously seen the Ultramarines defeat the Word Bearers, and now that has been changed and the Word Bearers have not been defeated at all, they have accomplished their imprtant goals.

 

Previously: The Word Bearers, led by Lorgar himself, attack Calth, with the explicite goal to anihilate the Ultramarines and kill Guilliman. But the Ultramarines manage to repell them.

 

KNF: The Word Bearers, led by Kor Phaeron, attack Calth, with the goal to perform a ritual that would create a galaxy wide warp disturbance and cripple the Ultramarines for a few years. Meanwhile Lorgar is somewhere else within Ultramar pursuing different objectives. The Word Bearers indeed manage to cripple the Ultramarines and to perform the ritual. While Kor Phaeron would have liked to completely anihilate the Ultramarines, that they did not manage to do that due to the planetary defenses being brought back online is not a significant set back.

 

 

Old story: The Word Bearers attack the Ultramarines, but the Ultramarines beat them back.

 

New story: The Word Bearers badly beat up the Ultramarines on Calth.

[Billuriye]

I dunno. A D-B had hinted that the Ultramarines will be involved in more actions during the coming years of the Heresy, and will actually have some "cool" moments. (That's what Abnett had promised for 'Know No Fear' as well though, but that did not turn out well at all.)

 

It did turn well enough. Unless you were craving for Mary Smurfs. Too bad instead we got Ultramarines.

[Legatus]

I dunno. A D-B had hinted that the Ultramarines will be involved in more actions during the coming years of the Heresy, and will actually have some "cool" moments. (That's what Abnett had promised for 'Know No Fear' as well though, but that did not turn out well at all.) But so far, unfortunately, the Ultramarines have been treated pretty badly in those novels. Even by A D-B, even if he may not have intended it.

 

Unless there are some more A-D-B Horus Heresy novels out there I don't know about, I assume you're talking about the Ultramarines wrecking Monarchia and Guilliman snapping at Lorgar until he gets an Illuminarium to the chest?

 

When all I had to go by was the First Heretic and the prevailing popular opinion of the Ultramarines, I was of the opinion that Guilliman was simply that jerk older brother we've all wanted to smash in the solar plexus with a two handed spiked mace, but that's completely at odds with the way he's portrayed in Know No Fear. So what gives?

 

We have to remember that at the time he was talking to Lorgar, Rob just had to oversee his Legion reducing an Imperial world into rubble, not because of anything the people did, but because Lorgar and the XVII can't seem to take the Emperor's subtle hints (and not so subtle hints. And outright commands) to +STOP WORSHIPPING ME!+ From everything we've seen of him (novels, short stories. background lore) Rob was one of the most humane and decent of the Primarchs, who actually tried to use diplomacy and minimize collateral damage. Of course he's in a vile mood at Monarchia, this kind of operation is completely anathema to him and his troops.

 

He does the best he can to just wreck the infrastructure, not the inhabitants (by having Ultramarines fly Thunderhawks over all the planet telling people they have three days to evacuate the cities) but it's still a brutal and ruthless action, much more in line with how Angron or Curze does things. And then, after he's put up with all this FOR THE EMPEROR, without complaining too much, he has to deal with his baby brother rolling in the dirt and crying. Of course he's going to be a bit short with him. Who wouldn't?

Of course one can explain how Guilliman must have felt terrible at carrying out such a mission, and how it was completely against how the Ultramarines are otherwise described to conduct their campaigns. But that is probably not what people will get from that book, is it? That is how one excuses their description in that book. What one might take away from that book is how: the Ultramarines dickishly destroyed one of Lorgar's cities, Guilliman was smugly enjoying putting down Lorgar, Lorgar smacking down Guilliman. Yeah, I can say "but that was just Lorgar's skewed perception", and "but he was ordered to do that by the Emperor". But as I said, then I am making excuses. And it does not exactly help that in his next HH novella about the Word Bearers, A D-B insinuates that if Guilliman and Lorgar were to fight, Lorgar would handily win. Oh, he does not outright state that's what would certainly happen. It's only a daemonic vision of a possible future, and could be a total lie. But there I am making excuses again.

 

---

 

I dunno. A D-B had hinted that the Ultramarines will be involved in more actions during the coming years of the Heresy, and will actually have some "cool" moments. (That's what Abnett had promised for 'Know No Fear' as well though, but that did not turn out well at all.)

It did turn well enough. Unless you were craving for Mary Smurfs. Too bad instead we got Ultramarines.

I was expecting a more detailed and fleshed out version of the Battle for Calth as described in the Collected Visions book. After Abnett had stated in an interview that 'Know No Fear' would be about the Ultramarines "kicking traitor butt front, left and center" I honestly did not see it coming that he would completely strip them of any kind of achievement, and really only have them undertake two minor actions during the campaign while otherwise just "fighting to survive".

[Marshal Rohr]

Sick, dude. Really, really awesome sick.

 

 

I think he means he would've rather read a Calth novel more like The Ardennes, Ia Drang, or Chancellorsville and what he got was the end of Phantom Menace.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Their is nothing wrong with both Chaos and the Smurfs viewing the battle as a win- different sides can have different objectives after all.

 

Chaos- raise hell, delay the UM. Inflict serious losses. Since its an UM planet, more you damage/destroy the better. Its not your planet!

 

UM- Drive off the Chaos forces.

 

Nothing inconsistent regarding both sides viewing it as a win.

 

Right, but what is the true answer when you are outside looking in?

[Wade Garrett]

Of course one can explain how Guilliman must have felt terrible at carrying out such a mission, and how it was completely against how the Ultramarines are otherwise described to conduct their campaigns. But that is probably not what people will get from that book, is it? That is how one excuses their description in that book. What one might take away from that book is how: the Ultramarines dickishly destroyed one of Lorgar's cities, Guilliman was smugly enjoying putting down Lorgar, Lorgar smacking down Guilliman. Yeah, I can say "but that was just Lorgar's skewed perception", and "but he was ordered to do that by the Emperor". But as I said, then I am making excuses. And it does not exactly help that in his next HH novella about the Word Bearers, A D-B insinuates that if Guilliman and Lorgar were to fight, Lorgar would handily win. Oh, he does not outright state that's what would certainly happen. It's only a daemonic vision of a possible future, and could be a total lie. But there I am making excuses.

 

On one hand, I see what you're saying, as upon completion of TFH I desired nothing more than my own 8 pointed star forehead tattoo and impractically spikey pauldrons, so all might know my allegiance as I march on Terra.

On the other hand, is it really making excuses to say the Emperor ordered Rob to do it, when Emps personally teleports down to Monarchia to tell Lorgar

+I totally ordered the XIII Legion to do this. Also, STOP WORSHIPPING ME!+

 

As for Aurelian, never read it so I can't really discuss it, but I have heard Lorgar has a vision of Space Wolves teaming up with Night Lords. That alone makes me really doubt anything he saw while sailing through the Eye of Terror.

[Bearingtheword]

Their is nothing wrong with both Chaos and the Smurfs viewing the battle as a win- different sides can have different objectives after all.

 

Chaos- raise hell, delay the UM. Inflict serious losses. Since its an UM planet, more you damage/destroy the better. Its not your planet!

 

UM- Drive off the Chaos forces.

 

Nothing inconsistent regarding both sides viewing it as a win.

 

Right, but what is the true answer when you are outside looking in?

 

When you step back and look at it from the outside, then both sides win and both sides lose...It's a military engagement. If you step back in and look at it from the perspective of a Word Bearer legionnaire, your brothers accomplished several of the missions goals but you failed to annihilate the XIIIth and it's primarch before being forced to withdraw. If you look at it from the perception of an Ultramarine legionnaire, then you and your brothers, along with your primarch, not only survived a treacherous attack by the XVIIth, but beat them back and forced them to retreat, not to mention your primarch survived an assassination attempt that sent the assassins running like a dog with it's tail between it's legs. Now which version of the story makes it into the Imperium history books? That's right, the Ultramarine version listing the names and units that were heroic, or martyred, and the story is told of how the Ultras beat back and routed the horrendous betrayal and attack of the Word Bearers and their primarch. How were they to know Lorgar was never really there? Particularly when they were preparing for his arrival (to ship out to fight the Orks) when the treachery began. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Imperial scholars and historians actually thought/think/believe that Lorgar was actually there and recorded it as such.

 

KNF just gave us a bit more of the whole story, even if parts of it where written as if by the Ultramarine recordkeepers, particularly with the whole "mark" thing...That's one of the things that did bother me, because from the beginning it is presented as if you are reading the UM record of the battle, but lots of little things that the UM's would not have known about were added in. It didn't kill my enjoyment as a whole though.

 

~BtW

[Legatus]

When you step back and look at it from the outside, then both sides win and both sides lose...It's a military engagement. If you step back in and look at it from the perspective of a Word Bearer legionnaire, your brothers accomplished several of the missions goals but you failed to annihilate the XIIIth and it's primarch before being forced to withdraw. If you look at it from the perception of an Ultramarine legionnaire, then you and your brothers, along with your primarch, not only survived a treacherous attack by the XVIIth, but beat them back and forced them to retreat, not to mention your primarch survived an assassination attempt that sent the assassins running like a dog with it's tail between it's legs. Now which version of the story makes it into the Imperium history books? That's right, the Ultramarine version listing the names and units that were heroic, or martyred, and the story is told of how the Ultras beat back and routed the horrendous betrayal and attack of the Word Bearers and their primarch. How were they to know Lorgar was never really there?

But to us, who know what really happened, it is completely meaningless what the Imperium or the Ultramarines write into their history books. We know they are wrong. We know it was the Word Bearers who really won. And no arguing about how "the Imperium just does not realize it" will help.

 

 

KNF just gave us a bit more of the whole story

No, unfortunnately that is not what KNF gave us. KNF completely undoes the previous story and gives us an entirely different story. The point where the isolated Ultramarine cells on Calth received instructions from Guilliman and linked up to finally start to push back the Word Bearers did not happen. The many repeated strikes of Guillimans small remnant fleet against the vastly outnumbering Word Bearers fleet did not happen. Instead, Guilliman only gives one single insturction to one Ultramarine force on the ground, and is only leading one single boarding action himself. There were also no hordes of daemons on Calth, or perhaps Abnett just thought that was a detail that was not important enough to mention.

[Haranin]

In the 6th edition BGB, the fluff consistently mentions that the Imperium rewrites its history time and time again. What is to say that the Imperium's vision of Calth as described in the codex smurf books isn't the M40 version of the story, while the recent novel is the actual story.

 

Frankly, how would the Imperium know what the objectives of a chaos force were? Particularly at a point were the knowledge of chaos is the lowest?

 

Imperial history is alot like Germany or Soviet news reports during WWII. Always advancing or defending in hard fighting....

[Legatus]

In the 6th edition BGB, the fluff consistently mentions that the Imperium rewrites its history time and time again. What is to say that the Imperium's vision of Calth as described in the codex smurf books isn't the M40 version of the story, while the recent novel is the actual story.

There is no version of Calth mentioned in the smurf Codices. The two previous accounts are given in the Index Astartes article of the Word Bearers and in the Collected Visions book, and some of the descriptions in that book are definitely not from Imperial history. The Ultramarine sources generally only point out how the Ultramarines had been too far away to really be involved in the Heresy, and as a result were left largely untouched at the end.

[Conn Eremon]

Looking outside in, I would say that the Word Bearers won their objectives, but that the Ultramarines won the battle. Honestly, the whole Battle of Calth reminded me of Abaddon's Black Crusades. True, he loses the war each time. He doesn't beat the Imperium. But the objectives he had, which may have been more important than the war itself, were by and large accomplished. It felt exactly the same in Know No Fear. No matter what the Word Bearers' objectives were, or their successes in meeting them, they lost the Battle of Calth.

 

Whatever is in the history books, whoever writes them, however important the information in them is, the Word Bearers lost the battle. Dan Abnett just added certain objectives to the Word Bearers would have had, like any military endeavor a battle or war is made up of many different objectives. No matter the Word Bearers' success in meeting some of their goals, the actual battle was defeated thanks to Guilliman's removal of a primary threat and the surviving Ultramarines putting an effective defense at a critical juncture. Word Bearers completed their objective of delaying the Ultramarines, and the Ultramarines won the battle.

[dragon950]

While I did like the book to some degree, it wasn't as good when compared to other HH books. The main problem that I have with abbnet is that he's a poor writer when it comes to space marines and focuses on other non-astartes too much. Now I will say that this is his best portrayal of space marines out of all the other HH books, I wish Prospero Burns was this good.

 

As far as who won or who lost, this wasn't really a win loss battle. Since the WB ship was destroyed the mission became one of damage as much as possible before the warp storm come in for the WB. For the UMs this was more a survive, regroup, and then counter-attack until they leave. Since both sides accomplished what they wanted there wasn't really a loss to say, except for when girlyman reached into Kor and took his heart.

 

By the way, what in the f*** is whit the trooper guy who has lived for thousands of years and went into the warp at the end of the book?

[Conn Eremon]

By the way, what in the f*** is whit the trooper guy who has lived for thousands of years and went into the warp at the end of the book?

 

It was

Ollanius Pius. Ollanius Pius was part of one of the tellings of the end finale of the Horus Heresy. Horus wipes the floor with the Emperor because the Emperor still cares for his son, despite Sanguinius' death at his son's hands. Ollanius Pius, a simple mortal soldier, bodily interjects himself between the two of them, trying to save his Emperor. It is seeing Horus kill Ollanius that makes the Emperor to bury his emotions and end Horus. Ollanius later becomes the patron saint of the Imperial Guard. Other tellings of the story replace Ollanius with an Custodian. He is apparently being expanded upon. He is Ollanius Persson, a pious man who believes in the dead or dying Catheric faith and a retired Army soldier. He is also a Perpetual, like John Grammaticus; someone with a form of immortality. However, in the book that introduces Grammaticus it suggests that it is the xenos Cabal that makes John a Perpetual. Know No Fear posits that the Cabal merely changed, or affected, his Perpetual nature, but the nature itself is not xenos in origin. Warhammer 40k Wiki says that Ollanius' immortality is due to an honest genetic mutation, while John's is due to genetic tampering by the Cabal.

 

 

That's a pretty heavy spoiler brick, but I figured if any part of it wasn't inside it'd make it obvious what is inside of it. Personally, I'm iffy on this expansion of the character, but all in all okay with it.

[Pavement Artist]

When you step back and look at it from the outside, then both sides win and both sides lose...It's a military engagement. If you step back in and look at it from the perspective of a Word Bearer legionnaire, your brothers accomplished several of the missions goals but you failed to annihilate the XIIIth and it's primarch before being forced to withdraw. If you look at it from the perception of an Ultramarine legionnaire, then you and your brothers, along with your primarch, not only survived a treacherous attack by the XVIIth, but beat them back and forced them to retreat, not to mention your primarch survived an assassination attempt that sent the assassins running like a dog with it's tail between it's legs. Now which version of the story makes it into the Imperium history books? That's right, the Ultramarine version listing the names and units that were heroic, or martyred, and the story is told of how the Ultras beat back and routed the horrendous betrayal and attack of the Word Bearers and their primarch. How were they to know Lorgar was never really there?

But to us, who know what really happened, it is completely meaningless what the Imperium or the Ultramarines write into their history books. We know they are wrong. We know it was the Word Bearers who really won. And no arguing about how "the Imperium just does not realize it" will help.

 

 

KNF just gave us a bit more of the whole story

No, unfortunnately that is not what KNF gave us. KNF completely undoes the previous story and gives us an entirely different story. The point where the isolated Ultramarine cells on Calth received instructions from Guilliman and linked up to finally start to push back the Word Bearers did not happen. The many repeated strikes of Guillimans small remnant fleet against the vastly outnumbering Word Bearers fleet did not happen. Instead, Guilliman only gives one single insturction to one Ultramarine force on the ground, and is only leading one single boarding action himself. There were also no hordes of daemons on Calth, or perhaps Abnett just thought that was a detail that was not important enough to mention.

 

 

But Judging by the way the wind is blowing with regards to references to the 500 worlds (in particularly the end of "Fear to tread" hints at something in a big way.), the Battle of Calth is being turned into just a precursor for a massive slapfest across the whole of the Ultramar system.

 

Clearly you're enamoured with the Index Astartes article and feel cheated because KNF didn't portray a solid Ultramarine victory. Perhaps you're still stuck in the mindset that this is the Ultras over and done with in the heresy? You already know that Betrayer is set in the Ultramar sector and similarly you've been told by one of the authors that the Ultramarines have lots of cool moments to come.

 

Lets put it into perspective.

 

Old fluff= Shorter time frame for the heresy, Calth is the Ultras over and done with.

 

New fluff= expanded seven year heresy. This means more light being shed on conflicts throughout the heresy. New fluff is building towards Guilliman making a staging post out of the 500 worlds. Could very well lead to some traitors having their arse handed to them.

 

In the light of the new order of things, Calth becomes an opening shot against the Ultramarines as opposed to the entire war. I like it better. The Ultramarines are far from out of things. That's the point. It's even stated explicitly in KNF; The Word Bearers didn't KILL the Ultras. That was their mistake. Now Guilliman gets to educate them upon the finer points of slapping.

[Trank]

Im new here but would like to give one perspective. Theres clear in my mind that the Ultras where almost annihilated and humiliated and the WB achieved their goals. But, in a long view, the victory belongs to the Ultras (only in a long view). I justify this with a phrase tha repeats during the entire book . "Never leave a Ultramarine Alive"

 

"Leave an Ultramarine alive, and you leave room for retribution. Only when he is dead are you safe from harm. That is what they say.

"

 

I realy believe this is one of the mottos of the book. I realy enjoyed this, knowing waht will happen in the end (13 going to earth).

 

Loved the book but my biggest complains is that an entire (giant) Legion was saved by 2 Mechanicums, taking control of the grid again.

 

Loving this website.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

From a tactical perspective the Ultramarines won

 

From a strategic perspective both sides lost.

[Pacific81]

Considering the greater goal was to win the HH, they failed, assuming they won the HH and horus lived the ultras and Guilliman would have been 'dealt' with at a later date

 

It would have hurt the imperium a lot more after the HH if the word bearers had wiped out the ultras and Guilliman

 

I'm talking about the Battle of Calth and the objectives that the Word Bearers had in place for it. Not the greater Heresy.

 

As the goal of the Word Bearers was to prevent the Ultramarines from having a greater role in the HH, then at this point in the story it appears that they have been successful in that.

 

i saw it that way because the HH was 7 years long, and we are barely getting into it stry wise. there is alot of time for the Ultramarines to throw themselves into the conflict.

 

WLK

 

Definitely agree with that. The Ultramarines, as the largest Legion (and one that was not possible to sway against the Emperor) represented one of the biggest challenges to Horus. The 'sucker punch' blow of the Word Bearers effectively hobnailed the Ultramarines as a serious threat. While they didn't destroy them outright, the strength of the legion was severely curtailed.

 

Albeit you could say that it was a strategic victory for Horus and the other traitor legions, even if things did not go as well as they might of for the Word Bearers.

[DarKnight]

Im new here but would like to give one perspective. Theres clear in my mind that the Ultras where almost annihilated and humiliated and the WB achieved their goals. But, in a long view, the victory belongs to the Ultras (only in a long view). I justify this with a phrase tha repeats during the entire book . "Never leave a Ultramarine Alive"

 

"Leave an Ultramarine alive, and you leave room for retribution. Only when he is dead are you safe from harm. That is what they say.

"

 

I realy believe this is one of the mottos of the book. I realy enjoyed this, knowing waht will happen in the end (13 going to earth).

 

Loved the book but my biggest complains is that an entire (giant) Legion was saved by 2 Mechanicums, taking control of the grid again.

 

Loving this website.

doesn't really make the book any less good but this quote kind of bothers me. are the ultramarines really anymore interested in avenging losses or retribution than any other legion? do the imperial fists just let bygones be bygones? do the night lords live and let live? just strange to me is all. still loved the book.

[Legatus]

Im new here but would like to give one perspective. Theres clear in my mind that the Ultras where almost annihilated and humiliated and the WB achieved their goals. But, in a long view, the victory belongs to the Ultras (only in a long view). I justify this with a phrase tha repeats during the entire book . "Never leave a Ultramarine Alive"

 

"Leave an Ultramarine alive, and you leave room for retribution. Only when he is dead are you safe from harm. That is what they say.

"

 

I realy believe this is one of the mottos of the book. I realy enjoyed this, knowing waht will happen in the end (13 going to earth).

 

Loved the book but my biggest complains is that an entire (giant) Legion was saved by 2 Mechanicums, taking control of the grid again.

 

Loving this website.

doesn't really make the book any less good but this quote kind of bothers me. are the ultramarines really anymore interested in avenging losses or retribution than any other legion? do the imperial fists just let bygones be bygones? do the night lords live and let live? just strange to me is all. still loved the book.

Indeed, they did not generally seem as the "vindictive" type, did they? I found that notion quite odd as well, but considering all its failings, it was a comparably minor issue of 'Know No Fear'.

[Bulwyf]

Im new here but would like to give one perspective. Theres clear in my mind that the Ultras where almost annihilated and humiliated and the WB achieved their goals. But, in a long view, the victory belongs to the Ultras (only in a long view). I justify this with a phrase tha repeats during the entire book . "Never leave a Ultramarine Alive"

 

"Leave an Ultramarine alive, and you leave room for retribution. Only when he is dead are you safe from harm. That is what they say.

"

 

I realy believe this is one of the mottos of the book. I realy enjoyed this, knowing waht will happen in the end (13 going to earth).

 

Loved the book but my biggest complains is that an entire (giant) Legion was saved by 2 Mechanicums, taking control of the grid again.

 

Loving this website.

doesn't really make the book any less good but this quote kind of bothers me. are the ultramarines really anymore interested in avenging losses or retribution than any other legion? do the imperial fists just let bygones be bygones? do the night lords live and let live? just strange to me is all. still loved the book.

 

I also thought that was odd. The Ultramarines have always been held up as the most vanilla plain jane by the book Astartes imaginable and now we're expected to believe they have Dwarf like grudges? Is there any Legion or Chapter of Astartes either traitor or loyal that are NOT obsessed with retribution if someone attacks them? The Ultramarines are supposed to be the most professional Codex Astartes Legion/Chapter so if anyone would be seen as not letting emotion cloud their thinking it should be them.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Im new here but would like to give one perspective. Theres clear in my mind that the Ultras where almost annihilated and humiliated and the WB achieved their goals. But, in a long view, the victory belongs to the Ultras (only in a long view). I justify this with a phrase tha repeats during the entire book . "Never leave a Ultramarine Alive"

 

"Leave an Ultramarine alive, and you leave room for retribution. Only when he is dead are you safe from harm. That is what they say.

"

 

I realy believe this is one of the mottos of the book. I realy enjoyed this, knowing waht will happen in the end (13 going to earth).

 

Loved the book but my biggest complains is that an entire (giant) Legion was saved by 2 Mechanicums, taking control of the grid again.

 

Loving this website.

doesn't really make the book any less good but this quote kind of bothers me. are the ultramarines really anymore interested in avenging losses or retribution than any other legion? do the imperial fists just let bygones be bygones? do the night lords live and let live? just strange to me is all. still loved the book.

 

I also thought that was odd. The Ultramarines have always been held up as the most vanilla plain jane by the book Astartes imaginable and now we're expected to believe they have Dwarf like grudges? Is there any Legion or Chapter of Astartes either traitor or loyal that are NOT obsessed with retribution if someone attacks them? The Ultramarines are supposed to be the most professional Codex Astartes Legion/Chapter so if anyone would be seen as not letting emotion cloud their thinking it should be them.

 

Step the 1st: Get rid of the idea of the "plain jane" just because they don't have psychoses marring their performance. That will help make the quote make sense.

My two cents- Even allowing for Mr Abnett's tendency to...invent...his own spin on things that fly in the face of established flufff, I do not believe the "Never Leave an Ultramarine Alive" is there to emphasize their bloodthirsty need for vengeance or their stubborness. They have traces of this already and will certainly pursue an enemy relentlessly, certainly one that spat on their oaths of brotherhood. That makes it a matter of honor and the Ultramarines are duty bound to spend some boltershells in the general direction of the perpetrators.

Rather, I think the quote is meant to display the Ultramarines ability to rally from all odds. The canonical reasons given for the Ultramarines size was the skill of their Legion in combat (less zerker charges, more combined arms approach), their willingness to puruse non-combat alternatives thereby winning over populaces (this means no insurgents, no protracted campaigns of ambush and counter ambush), and their logistical capabilities. This means if you do not annihilate them, that one Ultramarine will come for you, and he WILL be bringing friends.

[Conn Eremon]

That quote didn't seem to have anything to do with vindictiveness or vengeance to me. It had nothing to do with other Legions just letting things go, or the Ultramarines just being more about striking back than any other Legion.

 

All the quote really said was that if you want to stop an Ultramarine, you'll have to kill him. If you don't kill him, then he won't be stopped.

 

Besides, it was one of those basic, rather empty cliche phrases. The kind that can be applied to all of the Legions and most any other military faction within the Imperium, including the traitorous forces. It doesn't say anything specific about the Ultramarines that is not already obvious by virtue of them being Space Marines or even just dedicated warriors.

[deepsix81]

That quote didn't seem to have anything to do with vindictiveness or vengeance to me. It had nothing to do with other Legions just letting things go, or the Ultramarines just being more about striking back than any other Legion.

 

All the quote really said was that if you want to stop an Ultramarine, you'll have to kill him. If you don't kill him, then he won't be stopped.

 

Besides, it was one of those basic, rather empty cliche phrases. The kind that can be applied to all of the Legions and most any other military faction within the Imperium, including the traitorous forces. It doesn't say anything specific about the Ultramarines that is not already obvious by virtue of them being Space Marines or even just dedicated warriors.

 

This, exactly. This was just another example of the arrogance that is inherent in each of the legions. They have been bred and brainwashed to believe that they are the best, and each of them takes pride in one aspect of their martial abilities. There's nothing special about Ultramarine tenacity, unless you count their belief in their own mythology as a strength.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And don't forget the timer thing that Abnett put in there, too. They don't stop the timer -- ergo, they don't close out a mission -- until it is 100% complete. This means that if you attack the Ultramarines, you had better kill them all because if you don't, they'll keep the book open on your campaign until YOU are toast, even after thousands of years (thus, the ending comment about the Word Bearer timer still running).