Did the Ultramarines lose at Calth?

[Legatus]

As I had pointed out in other threads, it would make much more sense of the Ultramarines would consider the Word Bearers (who attacked Ultramar during the Heresy) or the Emperor's Children (whose Primarchs mortally wounded Guilliman) their arch enemies. Instead, they pick space locust critters that attempted (but failed) to eat Macragge.

[Unintentional Batman]

But so far, unfortunately, the Ultramarines have been treated pretty badly in those novels.

 

And there was much rejoicing.

 

Nobody else, but the Ultramarine extremists (and Empy/Imperium must be goody two shoes and Warhammer needs fluffy ponies -type folks) go around whining this much. It's a story, a cool one. So what if the smurfs aren't as invincible as the fans of the legion would want? Boo-Hoo. I was certain that up to the very recent developements Ultras were intentionally written by GW to be hated (invincible, faultless, bland) and that they didn't even want anyone to play em (not that it stops the folks who want invincible and faultless and bland cardboard supermen to play with). Now, with Horus Heresy, the Ultras are starting to be cool. They aren't the John Cenas of 40K (if you pardon my silly WWE reference) no more. Ultras getting some minor chinks in their armor not only improves the story, it vastly improves the Ultramarines legion.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

But so far, unfortunately, the Ultramarines have been treated pretty badly in those novels.

 

And there was much rejoicing.

 

Nobody else, but the Ultramarine extremists (and Empy/Imperium must be goody two shoes and Warhammer needs fluffy ponies -type folks) go around whining this much. It's a story, a cool one. So what if the smurfs aren't as invincible as the fans of the legion would want? Boo-Hoo. I was certain that up to the very recent developements Ultras were intentionally written by GW to be hated (invincible, faultless, bland) and that they didn't even want anyone to play em (not that it stops the folks who want invincible and faultless and bland cardboard supermen to play with). Now, with Horus Heresy, the Ultras are starting to be cool. They aren't the John Cenas of 40K (if you pardon my silly WWE reference) no more. Ultras getting some minor chinks in their armor not only improves the story, it vastly improves the Ultramarines legion.

 

QFT

 

WLK

[Unintentional Batman]

Oh, and as an aside, so I don't appear solely as an Ultramarine hating type, the Ultramarine in Iron Within (Nicodemus, wasn't he?) was damn cool, even without any additional non-heriocs attached to his character.

[Capt. Taurus]

Interesting points traded here. I must say that i really liked the book, although some aspects really annoyed me. But as far as the UMs "losing" is concerned, i guess one might simply view it this way: the UMs had no other option but losing. There was simply no other way fo things to turn out. It was a complete surprise attack for them. They were massing their legion expecting their "allies" to join them and were suddenly being massacred out of the blue by an enemy the weren't expecting. That Guilliman and the XIII survived under such circumstances speaks highly of their skill and mettle.

 

**SPOILER AHEAD**

 

What really intrigued me were Guilliman's remarks about his loyalist brothers. He said that he'd be missing Ferrus Manus the most because he and his legion would have been the most reliable and trusted ones would a great catastrophe *wink *wink come over the Imperium. May we take this as further evidence for the tactical brilliance of the Chaos gods that they managed to bereave the most brilliant tactician of the BigE of his most skilled executioner (Ferrus Manus), just as they managed to remove the greatest psychic threat (Magnus & TS) from the equation??

 

cheers

[Legatus]

Nobody else, but the Ultramarine extremists (and Empy/Imperium must be goody two shoes and Warhammer needs fluffy ponies -type folks) go around whining this much. It's a story, a cool one. So what if the smurfs aren't as invincible as the fans of the legion would want? Boo-F'n-Hoo.

If you cannot complain when a Legion has its one victorious action of the Horus Heresy negated, and in "the book about their battle" of all places, then when can you complain?

 

"Oh, in the new re-telling of the Battle for Prospero the Thousand Sons completely kick the Space Wolves' butt. So what if the Space Wolves aren't always represented as the biggest bad asses? Boo-F'n-Hoo!" That is not how this works. If they take away a victory of your favourite Legion, in a book that was promised to show off your Legion, then your are very well entiteled to complain about it.

[MadDoc]

If you cannot complain when a Legion has its one victorious action of the Horus Heresy negated, and in "the book about their battle" of all places, then when can you complain?

 

"Oh, in the new re-telling of the Battle for Prospero the Thousand Sons completely kick the Space Wolves' butt. So what if the Space Wolves aren't always represented as the biggest bad asses? Boo-F'n-Hoo!" That is not how this works. If they take away a victory of your favourite Legion, in a book that was promised to show off your Legion, then your are very well entiteled to complain about it.

If they'd actually taken away the victory you might have a point.

 

Or is this more a case of you not liking that the victory is now shown not to be absolute/clearcut (the WB achieving some of their primary objectives, completely unbeknownst to the UM) and that the UMs are portrayed as anything but completely flawless? :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Nobody else, but the Ultramarine extremists (and Empy/Imperium must be goody two shoes and Warhammer needs fluffy ponies -type folks) go around whining this much. It's a story, a cool one. So what if the smurfs aren't as invincible as the fans of the legion would want? Boo-F'n-Hoo.

If you cannot complain when a Legion has its one victorious action of the Horus Heresy negated, and in "the book about their battle" of all places, then when can you complain?

 

"Oh, in the new re-telling of the Battle for Prospero the Thousand Sons completely kick the Space Wolves' butt. So what if the Space Wolves aren't always represented as the biggest bad asses? Boo-F'n-Hoo!" That is not how this works. If they take away a victory of your favourite Legion, in a book that was promised to show off your Legion, then your are very well entiteled to complain about it.

 

Actually, the T-Sons nearly did kick my beloved Wolves butts in Prospero Burns, our book to be "shown off in". It was repeatedly said the success (which is debatable if this was a complete success) of the Wolves on Prospero was reliant on the prescense of the Sisters of Silence, and without their aid we would have gotten pasted.

 

and the heresy is now projected at being 7 years long, and you've been told (repeatedly) by one of the HH team that the Ultramarines will contribute to the war efforts...yet you continue to complain. Calth was the opening of the traitor forces in Ultramar, there is alot of story to be told (like what Angron and Lorgar are tag teaming)

 

WLK

[Solid Zaku]

That they survived at all was a minor victory in itself, but as far as losing? Oh yes, they lost. While the traitor forces were driven back in the end, the losses taken were simply irreparable. Obviously it wasn't a Legion-kill, but their combat effectiveness has been reduced (in the scale of the Heresy) to nearly nothing. I'd hazard a guess and state that their combat effectiveness is on par with those Legions at the Dropsite Massacre.

[Blood Angel Scout]

That's the thing, the book finished but the story hasn't i.e defenders taking to the tunnels or the pursuit of Kor Phaeron's ship for starters, no-one has taken any victory away from they Ultra's Legatus, on the contrary they (The Black Library) are giving you more than you've ever had, they're just stretching it out for as you've stated previously, we all know what happens in the end but maybe someone thought "hmm let's tell the events of a war but we might have to break it down into lots of different books that will show the same events from different perspectives, to expand on the few thousand words we've read over and over for the last 20 years".

 

So in essence what I'm saying is the Ultra's won at Calth, just "Know no Fear" has only told us how it began and from reading the latest instalment in the HH series, evidence of Guilliman comment/views of his strong 4 will be along in the future as

it looks like the Angels of Baal will be in Ultramar to help

 

[hmk17]

Collected Visions always came off as a condensed and abridged version of events. Kind of like reading about the Battle of Gettysburg or the D-Day Invasion in a tourist brochure. You don't get the full story and that history, itself, was written by the victors.

 

 

Honestly, the events of Know No Fear come off mostly as a draw to me; though its a slight Ultramarines victory if you break things up into primary and secondary objectives (like a table-top mini war game).

 

The Word Bearers had the primary objective of removing that meddling Guilliman and his legion from the overall campaign, by whatever means necessary. Kor Phaeron wanted them wiped out and took his shot, he failed in his secondary objectives of killing the primarch and legion. But they did accomplish the primary goal.

 

From the second the attack was realized, the Ultramarines faced the primary objective of surviving the encounter. They managed to do so and turn the tide against the Word Bearers until the Warp Storm began. That was the end of the space battle above Calth as Kor Phaeron retreats and Guilliman and the remaining fleet must abandon the system. Then begins the second part of the planet-side battle deep underground which held their secondary objective, to reclaim Calth from the traitors. Calth was eventually reclaimed by the Ultramarines.

 

By surviving and reclaiming the world, they achieved victory at the Battle of Calth. A hollow victory on points, but a victory still.

[Antarius]

I actually read KNF as a much more meaningful victory for the UM, than it was previously portrayed as.

[Captain Idaho]

It was always portrayed as a horrific and shocking attack on an Ultramar world where the Ultramarines rallied to turn the tide. Isn't that what we got?

 

Actually, Know No Fear is purely the opening stages of the war. The underground conflict is the one where the Ultramarines were sicked to be assaulted by daemons and cultists etc, and had to rally. But still, nothing has changed from previous material regarding the overall engagement.

 

I loved the book and thought it had buckets of character for the Ultramarines that made them unique and likeable, which is what they needed really.

 

And to answer the original question; Lorgar could and would have killed Guilliman if he was in Kor Phaedron's place, since he would have used the same sorcery but not been as vulnerable to a Primarch as a lowly underling. Lorgar knew this and despite his hatred of Guilliman still didn't turn up. The reason was because it was never the plan to destroy the Ultramarines at Calth and I'm not sure Lorgar ever thought that would be possible.

 

The plan was to remove the Ultramarines from the war and disrupt Warp space so the Loyalists would be isolated and unable to mobilise to stop Horus. The Word Bearers have had much success in this, acheiving (for now at least) both objectives for the short term.

 

The Ultramarines surviving was inmaterial with these 2 objectives acheived. Hell, even had they been destroyed on Calth, there was still a Legion sized amount of them left away from Calth (80K I believe) and a massive amount of resource to build back up the numbers.

[Antarius]

Well, yes. I guess it was pretty much what it always was. I just think Abnett's portrayal of the unthinkability and horror of the attack and how close to the brink the Ultramarines really were made it stand out as both a more horrific blow to the UM but also more of a herculean feat that they didn't succumb. So in that sense I found the portrayal in KNF to be more of a victory than I did before.

 

I was a bit annoyed with some of the pacing though. It was inevitable that there had to be more build-up and "zomg the UM are so up the creek"-parts than "the UM prevail" -otherwise it wouldn't seem like much of a thing. However, I found the "the UM get their act together and start winning" part to be a bit too rushed. I would also have liked to see more individual heroics (from both parts).

 

My one big (if possibly completely pedantic) gripe with the book though, is that there's some random UM dude who figures out that "horror of horrors, the WB must have planned this!" by looking at the simple fact that they were ready to strike when the supposed accidental collision happened, as opposed to the UM. Why in the @¤$€%&! doesn't Guilliman of all people realize that a lot faster than he does?

[Captain Idaho]

That's easy to answer; Guilliman, along with much of his Legion, regarded such treachary from fellow Legionaires and Primarchs as unconscionable and completely disbelieve it was possible.

 

I do often feel like Black Library novels are rushed at the end though. We have bee told it's not a deliberate ceiling on page count, but it is an awful coincidence that every author writes by chance a novel the same size... :drool:

[Solid Zaku]

Except for Abnett. I could replaster my house with just one copy of Titanicus. But you're right, the end did feel like a cop-out. Deus ex Orbital Cannon.

[Morollan]

At the risk of appearing rude to Legatus, I'm sorry to say that if you stay stuck in the 80's and 90's and regard old fluff as The One True Fluff then you're going to remain disappointed with pretty much every HH book. GW and various BL authors have repeatedly stated that they retcon when they feel they need to. Things will always change and I for one am grateful for that. I actually wish they would retcon more so as to remove the silly jokes and stupid names from the earlier fluff. Lion El'Jonson being the one that really, really sticks in the throat but even the name "Ultramarines" itself is pretty atrocious.

 

As for KNF, I agree with many of the other posters in this thread. The original explanation for the UM absence from the HH was frankly crap. They needed to come up with something more convincing and I think that KNF does exactly that. A surprise attack that wipes out almost the entire UM fleet and very nearly destroys the legion but that eventually gets repelled leaving the UM with, to the best of their knowledge, a solid victory. The fact the the Word Bearers are also shown to have achieved their goals (mostly) does not detract from the acheivements of the Ultramarines at Calth, nor does it unduly alter the overall fluff of the event. It just adds more detail.

[Legatus]

The original explanation for the UM absence from the HH was frankly crap. They needed to come up with something more convincing and I think that KNF does exactly that. A surprise attack that wipes out almost the entire UM fleet and very nearly destroys the legion but that eventually gets repelled leaving the UM with, to the best of their knowledge, a solid victory.

Well, first of all, the Ultramarines supposedly have to sit still for the next two years because they are cut off from the rest of the Imeprium due to warp storms. Not because they had suffered such heavy losses, but because of warp storms. So, why couldn't there have been warp storms before the Word Bearers even attack Calth, and once the storms clear up they attack the Ultramarines near the end of the Heresy? All this does is it changes (for the first two years of the Heresy anyway) "The Ultramarines did not know what was happening and learned late in the Heresy about the events" to "The Ultramarines were attacked and knew what was happening, but were then unable to do anything regardless". The "warpstorm" explanation would have worked perfectly without the Ultramarines having already learned about the Heresy at an early stage.

 

The second point is that I don't even think I complained about the horrendous casualties the Ultramarines took. That is not one of my big gripes anyway. My big gripe is that the Collected Visions account had described the Ultramarines fighting tooth and nails, with Guilliman directing both a drawn out ground campaign while simultaneously leading raid after raid against the Word Bearers fleet with what he has remaining of the battered Ultramarines fleet, and that this is removed in the novel, where Guilliman only orders a single ground attack and only leads a single boarding action himself before the defense grid defeats the Word Bearers. That is how "The Battle for Calth" is declared over in the book as well. It was not the opening stages of the Battle. The Word Bearers leave, their work is done, successfully. Some are trapped in the underground of Calth, unable to leave. Same with the Ultramarines. They are finished with the fight over this world as well, but some of them are also unable to leave Calth. Those remnant forces of the two sides will continue to fight, but "The Battle for Calth" is concluded in the book. Without much action taken by the Ultramarines. All the titanic effort that was described in the Collected Visions book does not happen.

 

 

The fact the the Word Bearers are also shown to have achieved their goals (mostly) does not detract from the acheivements of the Ultramarines at Calth, nor does it unduly alter the overall fluff of the event.

It does. It so very much does.

 

"The Word Bearers attacked Calth to destroy the Ultramarines Legion, but the Ultramarines managed to repell them."

 

Is completely different from

 

"The Word Bearers attacked Calth in order to summon a warp storm and to cripple the Ultramarines, which they both managed to achieve."

 

 

It is frankly stunning how one can seriously argue that the introduction of a completely different agenda for the Word Bearers on the one side and the removal of any significant effort and action from the part of the Ultramarines (aside from the two single actions they undertake) on the other side would not detract or outright remove any sense of accomplishment the Ultramarines were previously able to draw from the Battle for Calth.

 

The Ultramarines' "survival" at Calth is no longer a noteworthy accomplishment. It is an interresting bit of trivia, since it is a big event for a Legion to be almost destroyed. But with Guilliman only leading a single boarding action, which reclaims the "win button" defense grid, this cannot be described as any sort of notable accomplishment.

 

"Did the Ultramarines do anything noteworthy during the Heresy?"

 

"Well, they were not completely destroyed when the Word Bearers attacked one of their worlds."

[Morollan]

Pre KNF

 

"Did the Ultramarines do anything noteworthy during the Heresy?"

 

They survived a treacherous sneak attack from the Word Bearers and forced the traitors to retreat with significant losses whilst maintaining sufficient fighting strength to remain the single largest Astartes force post-Heresy.

 

Post KNF

 

"Did the Ultramarines do anything noteworthy during the Heresy?"

 

They survived a treacherous sneak attack from the Word Bearers and forced the traitors to retreat with significant losses whilst maintaining sufficient fighting strength to remain the single largest Astartes force post-Heresy.

[Gaius Atticus]

As a fan of the Ultramarines since 2nd Edition I have always felt they were screwed over when it came to the HH fluff. Basically the only thing they did was turn up late. The one saving grace was they won the battle at Calth. But now they have had that taken away. What's more annoying is the story made the Ultramarines to appear incompetent, and it did not show Guilliman as a great tactical genius and great leader like he's supposed to be. Instead he came across as an inexperienced leader who takes too long to react and accomplishes very little in terms of fighting back. Only because of a "defence platform" did they win.

 

On top of this, despite being a Primarch, Guilliman was defeated in combat by Kor Phaeron, and only survived because Phaeron tried to turn him to Chaos. Any other primarch would have killed him within seconds.

 

So basically KNF, removes the one victory the UM's achieved during the HH, also destroys the Ultramarines reputation of being the "tactical" Legion, and shows their Primarch to be pathetically weak in comparison to the other Primarchs.

 

If they want us to lose, at least give us a glorious last stand, or heart-wrenching finale like the 3 legions at Isstvaan V got, instead of a book that implies the Ultramarines survived because Lorgar couldn't be bothered.

 

While I'm not a fan of our more recent "they can never be an Ultramarine" Matthew Ward style fluff, what I had always liked about the UM's was their "Get the job done" attitude and excellent tactical displays. Instead we got a cumbersome force, who showed nothing to suggest they could have a reputation like what the fluff used to tell us.

[pingo]

What's more annoying is the story made the Ultramarines to appear incompetent, and it did not show Guilliman as a great tactical genius and great leader like he's supposed to be. Instead he came across as an inexperienced leader who takes too long to react and accomplishes very little in terms of fighting back. Only because of a "defence platform" did they win.

How would you propose a tactical genius deals with an attack that is impossible to predict, executed announced, performed unilaterally, cripples his entire defence network in a fraction of a second, and stops all communication. He had no information on which to act for a significant portion of the time. Only a foolish general would act on no or little information, especially when such action is opening fire on a presumed friend.

 

As soon as a solution to the problem presented itself (the defence platform), it was acted upon. Sounds like a smart move to me.

 

On top of this, despite being a Primarch, Guilliman was defeated in combat by Kor Phaeron, and only survived because Phaeron tried to turn him to Chaos. Any other primarch would have killed him within seconds.

Extremely powerful sorcery took him down. It wasn't as if he was out-duelled or anything. And what makes you think that another Primarch would have been any different? The Emperor was nearly killed by a very big Ork. These guys aren't invulnerable.

 

Also, it was probably just dramatic tension from Abnett.

 

 

While I respect that some people prefer the 'old fluff' with regards to Calth, it does sound rather one-dimensional to me.

[Gaius Atticus]

How would you propose a tactical genius deals with an attack that is impossible to predict, executed announced, performed unilaterally, cripples his entire defence network in a fraction of a second, and stops all communication.

More or less the way he did in the old fluff. That's my gripe. They are taking all the good UM fluff and changing it to the point where the Ultramarines appear to be the worst Legion in Space Marine history despite supposedly having a reputation as the blue-print chapter.

[Billuriye]

What's more annoying is the story made the Ultramarines to appear incompetent, and it did not show Guilliman as a great tactical genius and great leader like he's supposed to be. Instead he came across as an inexperienced leader who takes too long to react and accomplishes very little in terms of fighting back. Only because of a "defence platform" did they win.

Really? Ultras were basically tied with knot after knot and they still ravaged their opponent with their mouth. How does that make them incompetent?

 

On top of this, despite being a Primarch, Guilliman was defeated in combat by Kor Phaeron, and only survived because Phaeron tried to turn him to Chaos. Any other primarch would have killed him within seconds.

This is BS. Heavily put but true. Never did we saw a unprepared primarch easily beating a(the) warlock with 4 gods backing him up.

 

While I'm not a fan of our more recent "they can never be an Ultramarine" Matthew Ward style fluff.

I think you are. Otherwise you wouldn't have this rant about "why my RG ain't Chuck Norris and why his legion ain't the main cast of Expendables 2?".

[marshal seanisi]

I think one of the things the boy's over at the BL are trying to emphasize is how treacherous the "TRAITOR" Legions really are. I think some of the fans of the UM's are loosing sight of how deplorable the actions of the Legions who were once "brothers " really are. Like all the loyalist primarchs (even the Emperor ) Guilliman struggled with the realization that the WB's had turned on them and where attacking them. I mean can u imagine sitting at the bar with ur best friend and suddenly he smashes you in the face with a beer mug for no reason??!! Even if you manage to stay conscious it would take u a minute to gather your thoughts and realize what just happened while you try and contemplate why. The traitor legions are cowards who use treachery and surprise to their advantage. They don't want a fair fight because they know in a straight fight, the UM's would crush the WB's. Just like at Istvan the traitors wanted every advantage they could have and made sure they outnumbered the loyalist so they could achieve their victory. And just like the legions at Istvan it was a win just to survive. The traitors are just that! Cowards who don't fight fair. No better than Terrorist. And the BL is doing a good job at portraying them that way.

[Legatus]

How would you propose a tactical genius deals with an attack that is impossible to predict, executed announced, performed unilaterally, cripples his entire defence network in a fraction of a second, and stops all communication.

More or less the way he did in the old fluff. That's my gripe. They are taking all the good UM fluff and changing it to the point where the Ultramarines appear to be the worst Legion in Space Marine history despite supposedly having a reputation as the blue-print chapter.

Here is what the Ultramarines/Guilliman had done according to the Collected Visions book (since apparently very few people have read it):

"Guilliman's first priority was to stabilise the Ultramarines' situation. It was very clear that a mortal blow had been struck against his Legion. It would require all of his strategic and tactical brilliance to rescue it from annihilation.

Guilliman began to organise a series of hit and run counterattacks with the few ships able to operate. This was only possible because of the extraordinary discipline and training of the Ultramarines commanders and crews. The enemy fleet was over-confident and lacked cohesion. After each attack the loyal ships scattered and regrouped far from the traitor fleet. Even so, the loyalists faced a foe that outnumbered and outgunned them. Any losses weighed heavily against the Ultramarines whilst the traitors appeared to have an endless supply of fresh vessels. But Roboute would not surrender; the traitors would pay in blood for their cowardly aggression.

Even as he directed his crippled fleet, Guilliman was also sending orders planetside to his beleagured troops on the ground. The traitors had not counted on two things. The first was the unbreakable fighting spirit and tenacity of the Ultramarines, who simply refused to give in to their desparate situation. After the initial wave of attacks, the loyal Space Marines were now dug into strongly defended positions, and from these they could not be dislodged. The second factor overlooked by Lorgar's forces was the brilliance of Guilliman's command. Each and every pocked of resistance had been assessed with lightning speed and a plan formulated to increase the success of its defence against the traitors. Clear, concise orders were being broadcast to the defenders and the Ultramarines began to fight back."

(The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions, p. 164)

 

As everyone who has read 'Know No Fear' is aware, that did not happen in the book. And it is not like it was merely not described, nothing of that actually happens during the battle. Guilliman leads no fleet attacks, and he has no contact with the various defense pockets on the planet. He is not fighting a space war against a numerically superior fleet all while coordinating the efforts of several isolated and outnumbered forces on the ground. No, he only has brief contact with Ventanus, and then orders him to attack that one installation. Guilliman himself leads a single boarding action, to take back the deus ex machina. The Collected Visions book described a titanic effort, demanding in both tactical skill and discipline of the force involved. The novel only describes two minor actions against "obvious" targets, requiring no particular skill or effort.

 

It is with that Collected Visions description in mind when I say that the novel removed any kind of accomplishment or achievement from the Ultramarines. The Collected Visions book describes a noteworthy accomplishment. The novel does not.

 

That Guilliman gets slapped around by an enemy commander does not help. And the only reason he is not killed is that the enemy commander is unfocused, and attempts to turn Guilliman instead of finishing him off. Just like how the Ultramarines are only able to survive because the Word Bearers leave their larger vessels intact so they can salvage them later, instead of finishing them off. Guilliman and the Ultramarines are completely at the Word Bearers' mercy, and survive by no feat of their own. It is not a tribute to the Ultramarines that they make it out of the Battle for Calth alive in any way. The Word Bearers are just too careless and do not outright destroy the Ultramarines, which allows them to attack the one obvious decisive defense installation.